Are "black rifles" allowed

[noone]

Mr. Stover's reply

Mr. Stover's post makes some excellent reasons for including a black rifle class in bench rest matches on a trial basis. ALL the shooting sports need to encourage "new blood" and the next generation of shooters into any shooting sport we can.

Although I am one of the older shooters, I think I still have time to bring some younger shooters into our sport. If using black rifles is the way to do it, then allowing them to shoot against other black rifle shooters may be just the ticket.

Sales of black rifles and their derivatives are some of the hottest selling firearms lately. When asked why he robbed banks, Willie the bank robber replied "Go where the money is". Perhaps the same logic could apply to getting new shooters into bench rest shooting..."Go where the new shooters and new rifles are".

I'm one of the first to agree that black rifles lack the true beauty, precision, personality, and grace of traditional bench rest rifles. However, they are capable of astounding accuracy for a semi auto. In addition, they now have gas systems that can simply be shut off, and either right or left handed bolt handles so they can be cycled by hand.

I would enjoy more interest and participation from any new shooters...as long as they are safe, friendly, can help promote the sport.

 

[Gerry]

Are Black rifle allowed

i would make the pin a little longer , so it's Easy to take down without tools.
As they set you need something to push the pin out {
Like a bullet tip]. That's the way it was designed.

On a personal note i could see the use of and open bolt locked back and a safety flag in the chamber.

 

[Gerry]

Are Black rifle allowed

Jeff Great post. I think you and the board are on the right track'''''.

 

[Pete Wass]

Even though

I don't like these rifles and don't see them as being serious Benchrest rifles I will do my best to accomodate them in the matches I plan to host. My biggest concern is SAFETY. I have seen some Safety Nightmares at my home range. I just hope it doesn't become too bad.

The biggest area of concern is Jammed rifles, this is where all of us will need to be vigilant. Some folks buy these rifles and get Zero instruction on operating them. They are fairly easy to clear but if one doesn't know how, well - -- - -.

It won't be the old hands that will be problamatic but rather the newbie who buys a rifle and wants to shoot with his buddies. Time will tell but we will be dealing with a new animal here.

 

[mike in co]

I don't like these rifles and don't see them as being serious Benchrest rifles I will do my best to accomodate them in the matches I plan to host. My biggest concern is SAFETY. I have seen some Safety Nightmares at my home range. I just hope it doesn't become too bad.

The biggest area of concern is Jammed rifles, this is where all of us will need to be vigilant. Some folks buy these rifles and get Zero instruction on operating them. They are fairly easy to clear but if one doesn't know how, well - -- - -.

It won't be the old hands that will be problamatic but rather the newbie who buys a rifle and wants to shoot with his buddies. Time will tell but we will be dealing with a new animal here.

pete,
i dont think the newbies will be the issue, more like how many mods can i make.
safety should not be an issue. the bolt can be removed very easily. while it appears the boards has accepted chamber flags as an obvious indicator that the chamber is empty, bolt removal is as simple as psuhing one pin and withdrawing the bolt. that simple.

serious as any bolt gun you have.....before the election one could buy an ar reciever(upper/lower/bolt/carrier) for under three hundred dollars. my contention has always been that when/if they work...the guys building $1000 recievers will not be happy.
only time will tell at this point.

mike in co

 

[SGJennings]

and all i have to say...is ......DANG!

Looks like you have a head start on being a winner in the new class...

 

[mike in co]

Looks like you have a head start on being a winner in the new class...

ya think?

26" 1/14 twist hart. minspec 223 with a short throat. 3" wide flat forearm, 36x leupold. sled(single loading device), still has gas system so i can do auto eject and manual load, with a rag to catch the brass...no flying brass attacking shooters.

but

my real plan is to shoot ar's AGAINST bolt guns not other ar's. that is where the 6beggs with no gas system comes into play/and the 308 br .
don't think i'm blind, i just got a recevier for a 30br...BOLT gun.

mike in co

 

[Jeff Stover]

Don't see why AR-10s couldn't be allowed. Guess just maybe a 30 cal max. We are working on the details.

 

[Al Nyhus]

Jeff: I commend the IBS Executive Board in taking this action.

While I don't see myself competing with one of these guns, there's a large market that enjoys these rifles. Introducing these shooters to Benchrest may indeed prove beneficial to the sports growth in coming years. One thing is for sure....if it's not tried, how will we know?

Hopefully, there's a good plan in place to make AR shooters aware of this opportunity?

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[Al Nyhus]

and all i have to say...is ......DANG!
Let me know when some clubs start shooting them. mike

Mike: Don't wait for something to happen...or for some one to "let you know" when a club is hosting these events. Why not lobby your local club to register with the IBS and have these tournaments? Or become the match director at your local club and run these shoots?

Waiting sucks........ -Al

 

[Jeff Stover]

Al, thanks for the comments. I have been thinking about what you suggest. A start is right here of course, but we only have a smattering of AR types here. I suspect 6mmbr.com is a good place to start and AR15.com is probably the largest audience. I am registered to post there (I have a Rock River AR Varmint that I have shot, oh about 20 rounds...I bought it from the new whiz-bang AR-15 salesman, seems like his name was "Obamo" for sumthin' like that) and there is a competition section in their vast array of forums.

Might even check ISPCA/USPSA since they are used as part of their 3-gun competitions.

Other suggestions are certainly welcome.

jks

 

[milanuk]

Hello Jeff,

Just curious... any weight limits for the AR class? I have a spacegun that fits all of the above, but being built specifically for a different kind of matches (NRA HP Rifle Across-The-Course) I wonder if it'd make any sort of reasonable weight class. It'd be fun to shoot anyways...

Monte

 

[Jeff Stover]

Weight? Hmmm... I will leave to the gentlemen that will fill in the details, but why make it complicated? My recommendation would be maybe no more 13.5# same as a HV. What is the weight limit for a NRA HP rifle?

 

[Pete Wass]

Well Mike,

pete,
i dont think the newbies will be the issue, more like how many mods can i make.
safety should not be an issue. the bolt can be removed very easily. while it appears the boards has accepted chamber flags as an obvious indicator that the chamber is empty, bolt removal is as simple as psuhing one pin and withdrawing the bolt. that simple.

serious as any bolt gun you have.....before the election one could buy an ar reciever(upper/lower/bolt/carrier) for under three hundred dollars. my contention has always been that when/if they work...the guys building $1000 recievers will not be happy.
only time will tell at this point.

mike in co

I have seen no less then a half dozen guys, when their AR jammed, stand up and start pushing pins, flailing the muzzle all around the place, etc, etc. This is where my concern and comment comes from. Anyone who knows a little bit about these rifles knows how to easily un-jam them safely. I predict it will be an issue. There had better be some darn clear guidelined issued to these folks.

 

[noone]

Pete,
I think you have the safety issue right.. Make it VERY clear what is expected, and if there is a safety violation, the shooter is disqualified, and sent home without any refund. Safety cannot be optional or taken lightly.

I think that the AR style rifle shooters should be made very aware that the presence of those rifles is only a probationary trial, and safety violations will be a greater cause those rifles not being allowed in future matches than poor groups will. Poor groups I can live with...poor safety...well maybe someone actually won't live...

Alan

 

[milanuk]

Pete,
I think you have the safety issue right.. Make it VERY clear what is expected, and if there is a safety violation, the shooter is disqualified, and sent home without any refund. Safety cannot be optional or taken lightly.

I think that the AR style rifle shooters should be made very aware that the presence of those rifles is only a probationary trial, and safety violations will be a greater cause those rifles not being allowed in future matches than poor groups will.

In other words, make it crystal clear that they aren't welcome, that they are only there on sufferance because the larger organization (IBS) said so, not because you have any desire to ever see them again.

I guarantee, if you go out of your way to ping on the new shooters fielding black rifles like that, you *will* kill the class before it ever gets off the ground.

Emphasize safety, sure. Apply the safety clue-by-four evenly, I have no problem with that. But I've seen it before where the 'old guard' goes out of their way to 'make sure' that the new guys don't screw up... to the point of alienating them and then sitting around griping amongst themselves wondering why they are in a dying sport...

But of course *none* of you here would do such a thing...

 

[milanuk]

Weight? Hmmm... I will leave to the gentlemen that will fill in the details, but why make it complicated? My recommendation would be maybe no more 13.5# same as a HV.

That should be doable. Maybe not with this rifle, but reasonable enough otherwise.

What is the weight limit for a NRA HP rifle?

Whatever you're man enough to hold up in position

Actually, I'm only partly kidding. A) there are no weight limits, literally and B) some people who compete in specific events at Camp Perry (Nationals) with Service Rifles get their rifles up over 20lbs... a full lead wedge in the cleaning gear pooka in the buttstock, a full lead sleeve between the heavy gauge steel hidden float tube and the handguard parts, some more stuffed up the bottom of the pistol grip, and some wheel weights inside along the trigger. They have a specific reason for that configuration that really applies only to that series of matches.

Most people find about 12-13# to be more than enough for the average person shooting XTC in a Service Rifle configuration while maintaining a good balance fore and aft. My spacegun match rifle weighs just about 15lbs on the nose when dressed up for 'bench testing', but it's built around me...

Dang. Just what I needed. A need for *another* black rifle Doggone things multiply like rabbits in the dark recesses of the gun safe, I swear.

Monte

 

[Pete Wass]

Over the past few years

In other words, make it crystal clear that they aren't welcome, that they are only there on sufferance because the larger organization (IBS) said so, not because you have any desire to ever see them again.

I guarantee, if you go out of your way to ping on the new shooters fielding black rifles like that, you *will* kill the class before it ever gets off the ground.

Emphasize safety, sure. Apply the safety clue-by-four evenly, I have no problem with that. But I've seen it before where the 'old guard' goes out of their way to 'make sure' that the new guys don't screw up... to the point of alienating them and then sitting around griping amongst themselves wondering why they are in a dying sport...

But of course *none* of you here would do such a thing...

There have been several serious safety issues within the IBS org that lead to the lengthy Safety preamble that is now either read or played from a recording at the beginning of each warmup match. Most of the safety infractions were committed by Newbies. The issues were all serious involving weapons being discharged inadvertently.

I don't think I have to go on with this but it is a serious matter and we have worked very hard to make our sport safe. My only concern is to keep it that way. If folks can't conform to a strict set of safety proceedures, in my opinion, they don't belong in any arena comeeting with anyone. It that is a turn off then so be it. The rest of us will keep on keeping on.

 

[milanuk]

Keep it safe; as a match director (different sport) I'm 110% behind that. New shooters do need some extra herding to keep them headed in the right direction, and to make sure they understand the safety standards expected of them. I don't argue that one bit. But it can be done in a manner that doesn't smack of treating them like the great unwashed masses or a retarded third grader. Again, safety, yes. Double standards for enforcing safety, no.

 

[Pete Wass]

Actually

Keep it safe; as a match director (different sport) I'm 110% behind that. New shooters do need some extra herding to keep them headed in the right direction, and to make sure they understand the safety standards expected of them. I don't argue that one bit. But it can be done in a manner that doesn't smack of treating them like the great unwashed masses or a retarded third grader. Again, safety, yes. Double standards for enforcing safety, no.

A match dierctor shouldn't be involved in this process. The Line Officer and referees are responsable for these issues and no one else during the match. Match directors aren't given a devine right. That is why we have the other positions.