That is what Gene Beggs tuner does.
Anxious for clear weather to try Beggs Tuner
- Thread starter Jim Borden
- Start date
That is what Gene Beggs tuner does.
Jacke Schmidt
Jackie isn't that the same way its done in most shooting disciplines like F-class,Palma,600 and 1,000 yard benchrest? Al was just pointing out how Bill Calfee determines the tuners correct weight.
Lynn
Jackie isn't that the same way its done in most shooting disciplines like F-class,Palma,600 and 1,000 yard benchrest? Al was just pointing out how Bill Calfee determines the tuners correct weight.
Lynn
Pete Wass
Well-known member
If one summs up
all the information that has been published over the past couple of years and has the equipment, ability and time to make a device it should be fairly simple.
We know that the device must be rigid to work. We have seen a tuner made by Calfee where by he uses flat washers to find the weight he wants and some believe that once the correct weight is found , the deal is done. I think if one looked back in PS and found the article where in he is adding flat washers to the device that might be a good start. It's only one way to be able to add weight, certainly there are others.
I am thinking that one must find the correct weight for the particular combination one is going to shoot. I doubt that there can be a universal device that works for everything but I could be wrong.
all the information that has been published over the past couple of years and has the equipment, ability and time to make a device it should be fairly simple.
We know that the device must be rigid to work. We have seen a tuner made by Calfee where by he uses flat washers to find the weight he wants and some believe that once the correct weight is found , the deal is done. I think if one looked back in PS and found the article where in he is adding flat washers to the device that might be a good start. It's only one way to be able to add weight, certainly there are others.
I am thinking that one must find the correct weight for the particular combination one is going to shoot. I doubt that there can be a universal device that works for everything but I could be wrong.
jackie schmidt
New member
Pete
Here is the problem. If you just keep adding weight untill something happens,then you might go over weight. Then, you have to cut more off of the barrel, and start all over. I need a figure that is pretty close so I can hit the barrel weight and profile........jackie
Here is the problem. If you just keep adding weight untill something happens,then you might go over weight. Then, you have to cut more off of the barrel, and start all over. I need a figure that is pretty close so I can hit the barrel weight and profile........jackie
Jim Borden
New member
Jackie
I am going to try it on these two barrels I have that weigh 4.3 pounds without tuner--I have room do whatever Bill says is the correct weight.
Jim
I am going to try it on these two barrels I have that weigh 4.3 pounds without tuner--I have room do whatever Bill says is the correct weight.
Jim
Jackie Schmidt
Varmint Al,Myself and Pete Waas have told you how to do it but you don't seem willing to try it out.
Leave your tuner body on your gun and remove the weight you now have.
Make 6 aluminum weights one each at 0.5,1,2,3,4 and 5 ounces.
This will give you the ability to go from 0.5 ounces to 15.5 ounces in 0.5 ounce increments.
Next comes the second part you for some reason don't want to do.
You absoutely MUST USE TWO DIFFERENT LOADS.
If your not willing to do that forget about ever using a tuner.
Go to the range and shoot 1 shot at the target with your favorite load and one shot at the target with 3 grains less pwder in it.This is ONLY TO GET THE CORRECT TUNE WEIGHT.After the test is done go back to your favorite load!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is a grand total of 2 shots fired
You will get plenty of vertical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now add your 1 ounce weight.
Shoot your favorite load and one shot 3 grains lighter at the target but in a different location so you can clearly see it.
You will now have less vertical.
Repeat this test until your favorite load and a load with 3 grains less powder go into the same hole.
No vertical at all with a 3 grain variance in the powder charge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now shoot all of your groups with your favorite load and forget about the load 3 grains down.
SSSHHHHHHEEEEEEEESSSSSSSHHHHHHHH
Lynn
Varmint Al,Myself and Pete Waas have told you how to do it but you don't seem willing to try it out.
Leave your tuner body on your gun and remove the weight you now have.
Make 6 aluminum weights one each at 0.5,1,2,3,4 and 5 ounces.
This will give you the ability to go from 0.5 ounces to 15.5 ounces in 0.5 ounce increments.
Next comes the second part you for some reason don't want to do.
You absoutely MUST USE TWO DIFFERENT LOADS.
If your not willing to do that forget about ever using a tuner.
Go to the range and shoot 1 shot at the target with your favorite load and one shot at the target with 3 grains less pwder in it.This is ONLY TO GET THE CORRECT TUNE WEIGHT.After the test is done go back to your favorite load!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is a grand total of 2 shots fired
You will get plenty of vertical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now add your 1 ounce weight.
Shoot your favorite load and one shot 3 grains lighter at the target but in a different location so you can clearly see it.
You will now have less vertical.
Repeat this test until your favorite load and a load with 3 grains less powder go into the same hole.
No vertical at all with a 3 grain variance in the powder charge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now shoot all of your groups with your favorite load and forget about the load 3 grains down.
SSSHHHHHHEEEEEEEESSSSSSSHHHHHHHH
Lynn
Jim Borden
New member
Lynn
Thanks--will do
Jim
Thanks--will do
Jim
jackie schmidt
New member
Thanks,Lynn
That makes it a lot clearer.
All I need to do is chuck up one of my good Sporter Barrels and machine about 12 ounces off of the profile. I figure just machining it straight for what ever distance is needed should be OK. Since I use cut rifled Kriegers, this should be no problem with the ID changing, as many fear.
I will need to build a muzzle attachment, as my tuners are not designed to add weight. I can make a muzzle attachment that threads onto and locks to the barrel, with a threaded OD ending in a shoulder. The weights will be held in place with a nut,much like Shellys Jam Nuts.
How much tuner over hang would you say I can get away with on the barrel,if any. To keep the length of the weights down,I can add diameter. I will have to cut a few aluminum pieces to see what each weigh, just to get a baseline.
I should be able to get all of this done this week. I will keep you posted as to how things go.
Any other advice will be appreciated.........jackie
That makes it a lot clearer.
All I need to do is chuck up one of my good Sporter Barrels and machine about 12 ounces off of the profile. I figure just machining it straight for what ever distance is needed should be OK. Since I use cut rifled Kriegers, this should be no problem with the ID changing, as many fear.
I will need to build a muzzle attachment, as my tuners are not designed to add weight. I can make a muzzle attachment that threads onto and locks to the barrel, with a threaded OD ending in a shoulder. The weights will be held in place with a nut,much like Shellys Jam Nuts.
How much tuner over hang would you say I can get away with on the barrel,if any. To keep the length of the weights down,I can add diameter. I will have to cut a few aluminum pieces to see what each weigh, just to get a baseline.
I should be able to get all of this done this week. I will keep you posted as to how things go.
Any other advice will be appreciated.........jackie
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Jackie Schmidt
Jackie I wouldn't do anything at all to your barrel just yet.The shorter stiffer barrels will generaly use less weight than the long skinny barrels do.
You existing weight is probaly already too heavy and that is what Bill Calfee has been trying to tell you.
If you shoot your favorite load as the first shot each time you will see it is possible for the second shot and the first shot too actually trade places.If you then keep adding weight they will swap places again.
I would make the weights to fit on your existing tuner body even though the light ones will be real thin.You can stack them together if necessary.
If you go to the classifieds section under "Components" ten click on "Other" you will see how the tuner weights can be made to stack up.
I use 1.75 inches of over hang
Lynn
Jackie I wouldn't do anything at all to your barrel just yet.The shorter stiffer barrels will generaly use less weight than the long skinny barrels do.
You existing weight is probaly already too heavy and that is what Bill Calfee has been trying to tell you.
If you shoot your favorite load as the first shot each time you will see it is possible for the second shot and the first shot too actually trade places.If you then keep adding weight they will swap places again.
I would make the weights to fit on your existing tuner body even though the light ones will be real thin.You can stack them together if necessary.
If you go to the classifieds section under "Components" ten click on "Other" you will see how the tuner weights can be made to stack up.
I use 1.75 inches of over hang
Lynn
jackie schmidt
New member
Lynn
The tuner on my barrel weighs weighs 5.6 ounces now. The piece that I can machine to attach the weights will probaly only weigh about 3.5 ounces, maybe less. I could thread it onto the existing 36 tpi and lock it with JB weld. I have one really good barrel that is 4 pounds 8 ounces now at 21.5 inches length .If I can get it down to a flat 4 pounds, that should be enough, as that, and the new muzzle attachment set-up, would weigh less than what I am using now.
If I start with a new barrel blank, I guess I could machine the barrel straight for what ever length it would take to get it to a flat 4 pounds at 24 inches length, do you think that would get me in the ball park??
I really wanted to use a proven barrel. But if it just won't do, I will have to go with a new blank..........jackie
The tuner on my barrel weighs weighs 5.6 ounces now. The piece that I can machine to attach the weights will probaly only weigh about 3.5 ounces, maybe less. I could thread it onto the existing 36 tpi and lock it with JB weld. I have one really good barrel that is 4 pounds 8 ounces now at 21.5 inches length .If I can get it down to a flat 4 pounds, that should be enough, as that, and the new muzzle attachment set-up, would weigh less than what I am using now.
If I start with a new barrel blank, I guess I could machine the barrel straight for what ever length it would take to get it to a flat 4 pounds at 24 inches length, do you think that would get me in the ball park??
I really wanted to use a proven barrel. But if it just won't do, I will have to go with a new blank..........jackie
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jackie schmidt
New member
Butch
How much overhang are you using on the tuner?? Lynn is using 1 3/4 inches, with no ill affects. I suppose I will go with that.
If the idea of the "stopped muzzle" does indeed work, would not this render adjustable tuners obsolete?? I would hope so. The thought of having a pet load that works all the time is very appealing to someone like me who shoots an entire Region Schedule.
My failure to grasp the idea came from the thought that we would be adding way too much weight to achieve the results,renderring the Rifle tooheavy for class. Now the light has come on. The thinner barrel profile, (hopefully at about 4 pounds), allows for the ideal weight of the tuner to be found........jackie
How much overhang are you using on the tuner?? Lynn is using 1 3/4 inches, with no ill affects. I suppose I will go with that.
If the idea of the "stopped muzzle" does indeed work, would not this render adjustable tuners obsolete?? I would hope so. The thought of having a pet load that works all the time is very appealing to someone like me who shoots an entire Region Schedule.
My failure to grasp the idea came from the thought that we would be adding way too much weight to achieve the results,renderring the Rifle tooheavy for class. Now the light has come on. The thinner barrel profile, (hopefully at about 4 pounds), allows for the ideal weight of the tuner to be found........jackie
The next few days will tell some stories................or we're gonna' hear frustrated screams from both ends of the Country
S
ShelleyDavidson
Guest
Jackie
The Shadetree tuner has a 1" overhang. But, any diameter/length weight could be threaded to work with it. Even if the Calfee, stopped muzzle thing works, I still think that the tuner will need to be adjustable so as to get that initial fine tune.
If you think you'd like to try using one of our tuner bodies for the experiment, I can mail you one this afternoon. Our tuner threads onto a .9" 32tpi muzzle tenon and the weights fit on a 1.375" body. I'll even throw in a jam nut threaded to fit the body. All you'd need is to find the proper weight to hang on the end.
Shelley
The Shadetree tuner has a 1" overhang. But, any diameter/length weight could be threaded to work with it. Even if the Calfee, stopped muzzle thing works, I still think that the tuner will need to be adjustable so as to get that initial fine tune.
If you think you'd like to try using one of our tuner bodies for the experiment, I can mail you one this afternoon. Our tuner threads onto a .9" 32tpi muzzle tenon and the weights fit on a 1.375" body. I'll even throw in a jam nut threaded to fit the body. All you'd need is to find the proper weight to hang on the end.
Shelley
jackie schmidt
New member
Thanks Shelly,
for the offer. But it won't take me long to make something up. Probably get the majority made up tonight.........jackie
for the offer. But it won't take me long to make something up. Probably get the majority made up tonight.........jackie
B
BJS6
Guest
I have asked this a bunch of times in a variety of ways but it seems to get ignored, maybe there is no easy answer ? Can somebody have a crack at it, Lynn, you sound like you have the theory figured out.
OK ...... so you figure out a good load for the bare barrel, something that will shoot decent groups with no tuner body or weight. Now you add the tuner and and the barrel is an entirely different weight now. Now you take that good load from before established in what amounts to a barrel that was lighter and with no added muzzle weight and also a load that is three grain lighter. What bearing does the old load now have on the effectively new barrel ?? What bearing does the three grains lighter load have on anything other than being slower ??
It would seem to me that the good load and the lighter load represent nothing once the tuner is added and weights installed. Before the tuner is set up the good load presumably doesn't shoot well and nor does the lighter load. You tune the barrel to suit but why start with that "good load" that doesn't seem to be good anymore and three grains lighter and then go back to the good load again ????
It seems to me that you could just say OK, I want to shoot a flat 29 grains. Load some rounds at 27.5 grains and some at 30.5 grains and do the two load tuner set up and then go back and use 29.0 grains that is nicely in the middle of the loads used to set up the tuner. Why is that not equally likely to result in a barrel and load set up that will stay shooting nicely ??? If you can shoot bugholes with two loads 1.5 grains either side of the chosen 29 grain load why wouldn't that chosen 29 grain load also shoot bugholes ???
I could be totally full of hot air and be missing something fundamental here but can somebody please try and explain the rationale behind the good load in the bare barrel and a lighter load, I don't see why that means anything.
Long story short ....... what has the good load before the tuner goes on got to do with anything once the tuner is added ?? Assuming it doesn't shoot any good until the tuner is set up why could you not start with any old load that is ballistically sound go either side 1.5 grains and set up the barrel/tuner combo that way ???
Bryce
OK ...... so you figure out a good load for the bare barrel, something that will shoot decent groups with no tuner body or weight. Now you add the tuner and and the barrel is an entirely different weight now. Now you take that good load from before established in what amounts to a barrel that was lighter and with no added muzzle weight and also a load that is three grain lighter. What bearing does the old load now have on the effectively new barrel ?? What bearing does the three grains lighter load have on anything other than being slower ??
It would seem to me that the good load and the lighter load represent nothing once the tuner is added and weights installed. Before the tuner is set up the good load presumably doesn't shoot well and nor does the lighter load. You tune the barrel to suit but why start with that "good load" that doesn't seem to be good anymore and three grains lighter and then go back to the good load again ????
It seems to me that you could just say OK, I want to shoot a flat 29 grains. Load some rounds at 27.5 grains and some at 30.5 grains and do the two load tuner set up and then go back and use 29.0 grains that is nicely in the middle of the loads used to set up the tuner. Why is that not equally likely to result in a barrel and load set up that will stay shooting nicely ??? If you can shoot bugholes with two loads 1.5 grains either side of the chosen 29 grain load why wouldn't that chosen 29 grain load also shoot bugholes ???
I could be totally full of hot air and be missing something fundamental here but can somebody please try and explain the rationale behind the good load in the bare barrel and a lighter load, I don't see why that means anything.
Long story short ....... what has the good load before the tuner goes on got to do with anything once the tuner is added ?? Assuming it doesn't shoot any good until the tuner is set up why could you not start with any old load that is ballistically sound go either side 1.5 grains and set up the barrel/tuner combo that way ???
Bryce
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Bill Myers
Guest
Bryce,What they have explained is creating a long tuneing window,It works ,I have one set up & have been testing it for over a year now,I use a reverse taper barrel for the LV & The Heavy Barrel is a standaed profile,. BILL
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BJS6
Guest
That bit I understand.
However it seems to me that to use one of the two loads as the main load after setting up the barrel you are in fact intentionally using a load at the end of the range that you tuned for. It seems to me to make more sense to tune for a range and then use a load in the middle of that range.
I mean, instead of finding a load of say 30.0 grains with no tuner and then using 27 and 30 grains to set the tuner up and then using 30 grains as your load why not used 27.5 and 30.5 to set the tuner and go half way between and use 29 grains as the competition load ?? Doesn't that put you right in the middle of a huge sweet spot ??
I am assuming here that once the tuner is set up there is a limit so far as what loads it will now shoot well. It wouldn't shoot well down at say 24 grains for example. I guess you set the tuner to work in the load/velocity range that you want to use.
Bryce
However it seems to me that to use one of the two loads as the main load after setting up the barrel you are in fact intentionally using a load at the end of the range that you tuned for. It seems to me to make more sense to tune for a range and then use a load in the middle of that range.
I mean, instead of finding a load of say 30.0 grains with no tuner and then using 27 and 30 grains to set the tuner up and then using 30 grains as your load why not used 27.5 and 30.5 to set the tuner and go half way between and use 29 grains as the competition load ?? Doesn't that put you right in the middle of a huge sweet spot ??
I am assuming here that once the tuner is set up there is a limit so far as what loads it will now shoot well. It wouldn't shoot well down at say 24 grains for example. I guess you set the tuner to work in the load/velocity range that you want to use.
Bryce
Vibe
22 Epperson Cricket
I'm sure Lynn will correct me if I'm mistaken, but the "good" load has already proven to be one that generated the lowest Extreme Spread in velocities ("needs" the least "tuning"), but one could possibly fire both 3 grains less as well as 3 grain more - provided of course that 3 grains more doesn't put you into dangerous pressures. 1.5 grains might work, but 3 should work better.