Anxious for clear weather to try Beggs Tuner

Al Nyhus said:
I like the idea of the weight beyond the muzzle...but I also suspect this is one area where the rimfire technology may not directly apply to centerfire stuff, due to the huge differences in muzzle pressures. It seems we are introducing two more very big variables: we now have the 'original' muzzle, what is effectively an 'expansion chamber' and finally the 'second' muzzle. My big concern is the dynamics of the high pressure gas in the 'expansion chamber' part...and how this acts on the bullet as it passes through this area.
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Al,
Some others have expressed the same concern but it will not effect accuracy based on what I have observed with my own designs and testing. The application that I know works very well for me has 2" of muzzle brake and then 2" additional beyond that to support the tuner weight. I'm not sure whether we could use "bloop" tubes as long as rimfire but what we need for tuners IMO should not be an issue. I personally like to keep the ID of tuner body as large as possible but I can't say that even matters. There are hundreds of muzzle brake designs and as long as there is sufficient bullet clearance and concentricity none seem to negatively effect accuracy.
 
Thanks, Al

I make the tuner body on an old and very slow but very precise Hardinge tool room CNC machine. But I still have to do some manual machining and knurling on the body. I finally have my programming down perfect on it. My little cnc lathe won't handle the 2" diameter weight rings and it literally takes me over one hour per ring to turn them from some 2" round stock into the finished weights. The tuner and weight rings weigh in at 6.4oz. We feel that the extra mass and weight have their own benefits.

The tuner threads onto a .900 barrel and the pitch is 32tpi. I wanted to use as small of a thread pitch as was practical to prevent having to turn and thread the muzzle down any more than necessary. .900" is a good diameter for a light varmint barrel at about 22" of length. A heavy varmint barrel might be around .980" or 1.0" at 22" and will have to be turned down to the .9" diameter. Those figures will certainly vary from barrel to barrel but I can see no advantage to turning a muzzle down any more than necessary.

The weight rings are also threaded at 32tpi.

Using my hybrid magnetic and Shadetree tuner, my best practice group yesterday, at Denton was a .091" shooting my 30BRX1/4 with a 17 twist Shilen. I also shot a couple of mid ones and then some bigger stuff. We had fairly light winds in the morning but the wind picked up and was blowing over flags in the afternoon.
 
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Friend Butch Lambert

Friend Butch:

I quote from you:

"The programs have been written for our tuners and should hit here in no more than 2-3 weeks. They will be on our website and classifieds here within a week. Bill Calfee, you can laugh your head off. Tuners are here to stay."
Butch
www.shadetreeea.com

My friend, I'm not laughing. I'm thrilled to death. Centerfire muzzle device development is about ready to snowball......

I am going to make a prediction, and I'm going to print this off in case I live long enough to see it come true:

USING A MUZZLE DEVICE EQUIPED RIFLE, WITHIN 3 YEARS, THE FIRST 100 YARD, SUB TENTH AGG. WILL BE FIRED.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Kathy said:
USING A MUZZLE DEVICE EQUIPED RIFLE, WITHIN 3 YEARS, THE FIRST 100 YARD, SUB TENTH AGG. WILL BE FIRED.
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If you mean under .010, it will be pure, blind luck, because unless my math is way off, bullets aren't good enough to fire 25 shots under .010 even with no wind.
 
Muzzle Past Tuners

The end of my tuners stick past the end of the barrel about 3/4 inch, and I see no affects on accuracy what so ever.
The one thing that I have found through the three+ years that I have been using, (and winning with), tuners is you still have to find an ideal powder burn rate that your combination likes, and then fine tune the set-up within this window with the tuner.
As more of you actually get into match situations with tuners, you will understand more of what I mean.
And, as you get into match situations, you will also learn to appreciate a tuner design that is very user friendly at the line, where the real worth of the tuner exist.
Jim, don't get hung up on trying to maintain barrel weight. I have not had more than a 76 ounce barrel, (at about 21 1/2 inches), on my Sporter since I started using a tuner. .........jackie
 
Thanks Jackie

Glad you said that about weight.--these two barrels weigh 4.3 pounds without tuner. I can go to 5.2 pounds total with tuner and still make weight with the 45X Bukys or Brackney system on it. So that leaves quite a bit of room for tuner weight experimentation.

Thanks for what you have shared over past three years on your use of these.

Jim
 
Feedback From the Tunnel in West Texas

Good mornin' gentlemen

It's wonderful to see the continuation of this friendly, cooperative exchange of information about barrel tuners and muzzle devices. Terrific progress is being made and benchrest shooters the world over will benefit by what is being done today.

Jim Borden, those are beautiful installations; you will enjoy experimenting with them. Thanks for posting the pictures. I believe you will find that both barrels react in exactly the same way. The short muzzle recess on the one will have no affect.

Butch, and Shelley, glad to hear you are teaming up. Competition is a good thing. It is nice to have options so one can choose the product that best suits his needs and tastes.

Bill Calfee, thanks for all your hard work and for sharing your knowledge and experience with the centerfire shooters. It was a wise move on your part to begin referring to your product as a "Muzzle Device." That is a much more accurate description. You will recall that in one of my posts some time ago, I said, "When experts dissagree, it is often because they are talking about two different things." That was the case with "Tuners" vs., "Muzzle Devices."

I had planned to be in Phoenix this weekend for the Cactus Classic but an unexpxected turn of events prevented me from going. I look forward to seeing all of you at the Super Shoot. 2008 promises to be an exciting year!

Good shooting

Gene Beggs
 
Gene Beggs

Gene Beggs said:
Bill Calfee, It was a wise move on your part to begin referring to your product as a "Muzzle Device." That is a much more accurate description.

Gene if your a regular reader of Precision Shooting Magazine you will find an article from the 90's were Bill Calfee was using the term "muzzle device" a long time ago and he didn't change its name or what it does.


You will recall that in one of my posts some time ago, I said, "When experts dissagree, it is often because they are talking about two different things." That was the case with "Tuners" vs., "Muzzle Devices."
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Gene what is the difference?

Lynn
 
Friend Lynn

Friend Lynn:

What a time to be alive and involved with rifle accuracy.

By this time next year, or late this season, the term "tuner" will no longer be in the lexicon of words to describe my "muzzle devices".

A muzzle device, of the proper weight, and positioned properly ahead of the muzzle, will "stop" the muzzle, thereafter requiring no further adjustment.

If one adjusts their "muzzle device" during a match, or, when using different velocity ammunition, their muzzle device is not properly matched to their barrel,(gun).

Again, by this time next year, or maybe sooner, the term "tuner" will no longer be used.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Varmint Al

Al I did it even bigger than that.Jim Borden just put a new barrel on my 300 Ackley and it drills little bitty holes with 74 gr of RE25 and again with 81.5 gr of RE25 and the same 216 gr bullets.

At 100 yards my gun shows 3/4 inch variation between the two loads and with my Calfee type "Muzzle Device" both loads go through the same hole just as Bill describes.

Al we normaly shoot at Circle S Ranch right out of Petaluma just up the street from you every sunday.If you would like to see it first hand stop by anytime.I have all the weights and Tuners you would ever want to play with.
Lynn
 
Al

Many of us in Benchrest shoot what we call a set "combination". That being, we use the same barrel, bullet, powder lot, jam, and neck tension all of the time. The only time we will change the powder is in a drastic situation, such as with N133 when things get really dry.
I use the tuner to keep this "proven" combination shooting through out the entire Two Gun event over the week end.
If a barrel will not shoot my "combination" reasonably well without the tuner, I will not even use that barrel.
What I am looking for when I say the Rifle gets "ragged" is about a bullet hole of verticle that I know was not due to conditions. Sometimes this is a tough call, as you are always dealing with a lot of variables.
The big catch is to catch it before things get too bad. This is where the experiments that Beggs and others are doing with the Altitude Adjustments will be a big help. Knowing where to set the tuner, (I use dial calipers to measure from the end of the tuner to the end of the barrel to get my baseline), as things change will be a big benefit.
That is, if it works as well in the Competitive Arena as it does in the lab. This is a touigh game, and sometimes our best laid plans turn real "brown" on the target..........jackie
 
Lynn,

I have seen various posts where you talk about setting a muzzle forward tuner with different velocity ammo (RF and CF) until the ammo hits in the same place.

What does that prove ? Serious question, not being smart !

The muzzle must be pointing in a different place with the two velocity ammo to achieve that. The muzzle could be stopped and the angle of the barrel behind it is different or the whole muzzle could be in a different place. How do you know what you have achieved in respect of the barrel vibrations ??

Also the barrel presumably can only be tuned at one distance with that load using that method. Will a tune at 200 yards done that way (2 velocity ammo) still be the best tune at 100 or 300 ? Do you use ammo with a spread either side of what seems to be the best load or slower or faster only ??

How do you tune the load before tuning the tuner ? Removing the tuner will effect the barrel so the load likely will no longer shoot when the tuner is reinstalled anyway and just picking a random tuner setting doesn't seem very methodical either.

Or would it be best to just find a load that has the minimum velocity spread and then do all the tuning with the tuner. The latter seems the most logical to me but does that work in reality ?? Tune the internal ballistcs regardless of the accuracy and then tune the barrel to match the load.

There seems to be so many variables when the barrel is adjustable, how does one know where to start getting the load to suit the barrel and the barrel to suit the load both at the same time ??

Bryce
 
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Bjs6

Bryce if your gun shows no vertical with a 7.5 grain variance in the powder charge you $hitting in tall clover.

I tried the tuners for as long as most of the centerfire posters on this thread and you have to move them all day long to shoot small.I wouldn't call that a "Stopped Muzzle" I call that excersize equipment.

With the tuner set like Bill Calfee does it I find my best load as posted above 74 and 81.5 grains of RE25.I find this without the tuner body or the weight on the barrel.I then add the correct weight and I'm all set.

Please realise the only difference in the various tuners that are out in front of the muzzle is the method of finding the correct weight.Most of the posters are too closed minded to listen to Bill Calfee I'm not.
Lynn
 
Bryce, you gotta' try one of these things :) you need about two and a half brains just to keep up with the questions :D


Frustrating liddle DEVILS! But they shore work for some folks........I think you'll find that Jackie's method is where most successful guys end up, you eliminate other variables and dedicate to the tuner.....but only AFTER you've established (lucked into?) the base load.


As Bill said, it's a great time to be alive!!! With great minds working in parallel toward a common goal.


I STILL say that Gene's "device" is simply a weight-forward tuner redirected, plumb tricky-simple but the same concept.......


Watching earnestly :):):):)



al
 
I think you are right Al, I am sure this stuff makes more sense with hands on experience ..... or maybe it'd make less sense !!


Lynn, I understand your point but ......... Say you have a 250fps variation in those two loads. You alter the barrel vibration so that at 100 yards the loads converge. That is great if you want to shoot at 100 yards with a velocity spread around in between those two good loads.

Does the rifle now group better for a group shot with just one load ? Will a group with 5 different rounds in that 74 - 81 grain range group just as well ?

Will a group at say 300 with the 100 yard tuner setting still group optimally with one load ? Will a composite group with 5 rounds in that 74 - 81 grain range still group well ? To my mind the convergence you have created at 100 will no longer work at 300. If that is the case how can you be sure the tuner setting you have is now ideal for 300 ??


I agree with Al, to "stop" the muzzle the vibration patter just has to be altered so that the muzzle is on the point where the barrel "twists" between a peak and a trough or between nodes. The barrel vibrates like that anyway so what is stopping a mid barrel tuner achieving the same thing ? Perhaps the muzzle forward tuner is just the best way to do it with the least amount of weight, that kinda seems logical.

Bryce
 
Bjs6

Bryce my muzzle is hinged with the hinge exactly at the bullets point of exit.The slower shots are with the barrel behind the muzzle lower than the muzzle so my shots are going upward if you will as they exit.The faster shots get out of the barrel sooner so the muzzle is on less of a angle and all the shots hit the same point.

I have only tested out to 600 yards because the 600 yard nationals is in april.I shot my two best loads without the tuner and was getting similar sized groups.When I shot 1 shot from each load my vertical was 3 inches util I put the tuner on.

I only shoot one load I don't shoot a variety of different loads.

I also think Alinwa is wrong on his opinion of which tuner will soon take over centerfire benchrest.
Lynn
 
Thanks Lynn,

I find it intriguing that a 100 yard bullet convergence still works at 600 yards. I'd have thought the "compensation" the slower rounds needed at 600 would be much greater than at 100. I wonder if you haven't overcompensated slightly at 100 and have a perfect 600 setting as a result. If you tuned it at 1000 your 600 might show some vertical and your 100 even more. Maybe ??

If the two loads converge why would you not use a load in the middle of the two loads you set the tuner with rather than one at the end of the tuned range ? Would that not give you a big buffer if conditions altered the tune somewhat and effected velocity a little ??

I follow your description of the stopped muzzle and the barrel angle behind, that is exactly how I follow a tuner working.

Bryce
 
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Bryce

We are still waiting on the amount of weight on a typical LV-Sporter profile, (10.5 pound Rifle), to achieve the "stopped muzzle" that Bill Calfee advocates.
If he will give me the weight and profile, I will put it together, as I have the means at my disposal. All it will cost me is a barrel, a little material, and range time. I can even machine and attach the tuner any way he advocates. If I could get those figures by tommorrow night, I could have something ready by the week end........jackie
 
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As I read all these posts about the tun...Muzzle divice, being ahead of the barrel, has anyone thought about what might happen if you turned one around and put the weight behind the end of the barrel. Something makes me think it would work the same. I have a 6 oz MD on a Bartlein barrel that has about 2" of threads. Seems to make no difference in where I locate the MD, no more that about 1/4 to 1/2 turn will bring things back down to where they should be. Threads are 36/inch.....Don
 
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