goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
So, are we blaming this on the cartridge or should we be blaming it on the shooters?? Seems to me that this kind of thinking is like blaming the spoon for Rosie O' Donnell's big butt.
So, are we blaming this on the cartridge or should we be blaming it on the shooters?? Seems to me that this kind of thinking is like blaming the spoon for Rosie O' Donnell's big butt.
E
eww1350
Guest
In defense of the 30BR in group shooting...Since I don't know the process of keeping a 6ppc in tune for a given atmospheric condition...I have had so much sucess shooting my 18 twist 30BR with 112 grain bullets, and I DON'T tune it for the match...I pre-load and pay attention to the windflags/conditions...and I don't consider myself a national level competitor...I was able to ag a .258" in some challenging conditions at 100 yards, then really had a good .287" 200 yard ag with a big thunderstorm blowing in with high winds and temperatures dropping 20+ degrees in 15 minutes...
All of this done with a barrel that has close to 3,000 rounds thru it...
I don't have to keep a stable of ready tested barrels in the loading area to change to if my barrel quits agging...I don't have to start each match with fresh brass... I don't have to buy my powder by lot number and sift it...It is the most simple "Load and Shoot" cartridge I have ever owned...So I'll just sit back and shoot in the lower half of the top 20 untill the 6ppc goes out of tune or the brass gives up or something else goes wrong..
All of this done with a barrel that has close to 3,000 rounds thru it...
I don't have to keep a stable of ready tested barrels in the loading area to change to if my barrel quits agging...I don't have to start each match with fresh brass... I don't have to buy my powder by lot number and sift it...It is the most simple "Load and Shoot" cartridge I have ever owned...So I'll just sit back and shoot in the lower half of the top 20 untill the 6ppc goes out of tune or the brass gives up or something else goes wrong..
jackie schmidt
New member
Good Grouper
We have a perfect analogy in another field of Sport. The Indy 500, (or, racing in general).
All 33 cars have the same Honda Engine, and the same chassis. Why is it that some can go around at 223+ mph, and others can only manage about 218.
In the real world, that isn't much difference.In fact, if you watch the cars qualify, they all look the same.
But, that few miles an hour is an eternity. Put Helio, or Jimmy Johnson for that matter, in a car that is just a little off in the set-up, and they are mid pack, at best.
Just like in Benchrest. To the vast majority of the shooting public, EVERY Benchrest Rifle shoots at a phenominol group capability.
But, that small difference, in many cases less than 1/16 of an inch, means the difference between winning, and being in the middle of the pack.
1/16 of an inch!!!!. That is only 1/4 the diameter of a 6mm bullet.
The rest of the world probably thinks we are insane.........jackie
We have a perfect analogy in another field of Sport. The Indy 500, (or, racing in general).
All 33 cars have the same Honda Engine, and the same chassis. Why is it that some can go around at 223+ mph, and others can only manage about 218.
In the real world, that isn't much difference.In fact, if you watch the cars qualify, they all look the same.
But, that few miles an hour is an eternity. Put Helio, or Jimmy Johnson for that matter, in a car that is just a little off in the set-up, and they are mid pack, at best.
Just like in Benchrest. To the vast majority of the shooting public, EVERY Benchrest Rifle shoots at a phenominol group capability.
But, that small difference, in many cases less than 1/16 of an inch, means the difference between winning, and being in the middle of the pack.
1/16 of an inch!!!!. That is only 1/4 the diameter of a 6mm bullet.
The rest of the world probably thinks we are insane.
........jackie
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C
caroby
Guest
Fun thread!
The rest of the world probably thinks we are insane.........jackie
What ya mean "PROBABLY" Jackie............!!??!!
MOST not only "think" we are but BELIEVE IT....!
Great thread..!
I "tend" to believe a good load, REAL good gun and consistency in the gun handling area..... It's now "out there" among the flags/mirage is where shooters like Mr. Boyer slaye the field........
I just keep on missing that one condition 70% of the time for typically a mid pack finish.......... Still too D@mn much FUN...!
Head'n to the range to mostly stare at them flags... Twitch, twitch......!
cale
The rest of the world probably thinks we are insane.........jackie
What ya mean "PROBABLY" Jackie............!!??!!
MOST not only "think" we are but BELIEVE IT....!
Great thread..!
I "tend" to believe a good load, REAL good gun and consistency in the gun handling area..... It's now "out there" among the flags/mirage is where shooters like Mr. Boyer slaye the field........
I just keep on missing that one condition 70% of the time for typically a mid pack finish.......... Still too D@mn much FUN...!
Head'n to the range to mostly stare at them flags... Twitch, twitch......!
cale
Butch Lambert
Active member
I agree with you Glenn. Jackie,If you check with the barrel makers, they will tell you that it is much easier to make a good 30 cal. than a 6 or 22. That may be one of the reasons that we are seeing more 30BRs being shot. A higher percentage of good barrels.
Butch
Butch
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Taming the recoil:
I saw, the other night ,on the Outdoor chanel, a new stock design for a shotgun that eats recoil. The system has been around for years, It's simply a two pieced stock that slides over itself with a spring inside absorbing the recoil. These type stocks have been around for a very long time and would go a long way toward taming the 30 BR's recoil in lite rifles.
There is no question that the 30's are a much easier rifle to tune and keep in tune all day. That is why there have been so many 250-25's shot over the past few years. They simply are easy to use.
I saw, the other night ,on the Outdoor chanel, a new stock design for a shotgun that eats recoil. The system has been around for years, It's simply a two pieced stock that slides over itself with a spring inside absorbing the recoil. These type stocks have been around for a very long time and would go a long way toward taming the 30 BR's recoil in lite rifles.
There is no question that the 30's are a much easier rifle to tune and keep in tune all day. That is why there have been so many 250-25's shot over the past few years. They simply are easy to use.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Dave, the reason I made that remark was I was just amazed at the number of good shooters that shot above a 32 that normally shoot 24 or below. I know you shot great. Grats.
Part of what I blame the high 100 yard aggs was the fast switching conditions Wednesday and Thursday. On two of my LV 100 targets I started on the 9 ring on one side and ended on the 8 ring on the other side and still they were big 3 and a little 4. Started Red on one and Green on the other.
One item that has not been mentioned that I know that needs further understandings were gain twist barrels. BUT, some of the winners were shooting gain twists.
Tony on relay 1 "followed" me as I was on the same bench on relay 6. Every time I noticed, he was shooting an unlocked Leupold. Ain't all about new technology is it...go figger??
Tough range in the Spring but what a fun range!!
Hi Jerry.
My first FISS. I shot 4th. relay.
I have never shot at this type of range. WIDE OPEN.
Up in MI. At WWCCA there is a berm both sides. Which creates other problems.
Harrison berm both sides.
Monroe RPC. Trees both sides. Berm 50y for handgun range. Break at 50y.
But, they all face east.
Kelbly's Range faces north.
The winds were tricky. I thought it would thin out the crowd at the top.
But, FISS brings out the best shooters. From around the world.
To those afraid to shoot the Super Shoot. It was a lot of fun. Come on out.
Everyone wins something.
It's the week before Memorial Day. And you can get home in time to cook out...
Leave Sat. Night.
Can't beat that.
My first FISS. I shot 4th. relay.
I have never shot at this type of range. WIDE OPEN.
Up in MI. At WWCCA there is a berm both sides. Which creates other problems.
Harrison berm both sides.
Monroe RPC. Trees both sides. Berm 50y for handgun range. Break at 50y.
But, they all face east.
Kelbly's Range faces north.
The winds were tricky. I thought it would thin out the crowd at the top.
But, FISS brings out the best shooters. From around the world.
To those afraid to shoot the Super Shoot. It was a lot of fun. Come on out.
Everyone wins something.
It's the week before Memorial Day. And you can get home in time to cook out...
Leave Sat. Night.
Can't beat that.
David Halblom
Flying Fish Fundamentals
Problem is Jackie
That 90% of the people here have no concept of the fact that it takes that edge EVERY DAY, EVERY match to win at a competition like the Super Shoot. They are all looking for the magic mushroom at the end of the rainbow. They do not recognize that it is a very difficult, very fine line to get the kind of groups that are shot at this level.
We have a perfect analogy in another field of Sport. The Indy 500, (or, racing in general).
All 33 cars have the same Honda Engine, and the same chassis. Why is it that some can go around at 223+ mph, and others can only manage about 218.
In the real world, that isn't much difference.In fact, if you watch the cars qualify, they all look the same.
But, that few miles an hour is an eternity. Put Helio, or Jimmy Johnson for that matter, in a car that is just a little off in the set-up, and they are mid pack, at best.
Just like in Benchrest. To the vast majority of the shooting public, EVERY Benchrest Rifle shoots at a phenominol group capability.
But, that small difference, in many cases less than 1/16 of an inch, means the difference between winning, and being in the middle of the pack.
1/16 of an inch!!!!. That is only 1/4 the diameter of a 6mm bullet.
The rest of the world probably thinks we are insane.
That 90% of the people here have no concept of the fact that it takes that edge EVERY DAY, EVERY match to win at a competition like the Super Shoot. They are all looking for the magic mushroom at the end of the rainbow. They do not recognize that it is a very difficult, very fine line to get the kind of groups that are shot at this level.
D
Don
Guest
Only one teen yardage aggregate, by the eventual tournament winner, out of nearly 1,200 fired by some of the best BR competitors during this tournament..................I would say that qualifies as tough conditions.
Winds dont have to be blowing 20 plus miles per hour to make for tough conditions, there are many other factors that can make for large aggs.......................Don
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Zippy06, you live in a hotbed of top shooters, Krupa, Gammon, Hachigan, the Hottensteins and a few others. Learn well and you can really be a factor.Hi Jerry.
My first FISS. I shot 4th. relay.
I have never shot at this type of range. WIDE OPEN.
Up in MI. At WWCCA there is a berm both sides. Which creates other problems.
.........
Come on out.
Everyone wins something.
It's the week before Memorial Day. And you can get home in time to cook out...
Leave Sat. Night.
Can't beat that.
Notice that on that range every rotation of 12 benches is a different range. Some people used to try to get George to level the range out. He's right, it is more challanging and fun to shoot the way it is.
Don, even though the two 100 yard days were the toughest conditions, I shot my worst and most frustrating groups in a couple of dead calms at 200. Calms that lasted about 30-40 seconds. Sun in and out, bullets high and low in the same group. The gun was shooting because one of these started out as a 0.160 for the first 3 shots, the other one started as a 3-shot 0.225"!
I didn't choke. Choking is when you blow the last shot, this must have been double chokes!!
goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
The rest of the world probably thinks we are insane.
Of that I'm sure!
Just to set the record straight, I have nothing against the 30 br. If it is easier to tune, great. If it's got better barrel life and better barrels like I'm sure it does, wonderful. If more folks can shoot it better than a ppc, fantastic. The more happy folks at the matches the better. I'd be glad to see more variety in the equipment lists for caliber.
But my point is this: No matter how good a 6ppc or a 30 br can get, they still have to be STEERED correctly. That is up to the shooter, not the cartridge. So until we have laser guns (and where would the fun in that be?) we are at the mercy of wind and how well we can read it. And until I hear Mr. Boyer or any of the other top HOF shooters say that there's something better, I suspect they will keep whooping us with the same cartridge most of us are using too.
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Hi Jerry.
Yep. All great shooters. And all nice guys. I have learned a lot.
The Super Shoot was my 3rd group tournament.
My first was at WWCCA. Got to sit next to Jack Neary. And at the Super shoot, also. What a coincidence.
Jack is a great guy, also.
The bench rotation was a new one for me. But, a nice touch.
Joe and/or Gene Buckys came up a new acronym "4 and 1 club".
I think it went. 4 good ones and 1 that don't make it a .1.
We were loading outside the loading barn.
Tim B.
Yep. All great shooters. And all nice guys. I have learned a lot.
The Super Shoot was my 3rd group tournament.
My first was at WWCCA. Got to sit next to Jack Neary. And at the Super shoot, also. What a coincidence.
Jack is a great guy, also.
The bench rotation was a new one for me. But, a nice touch.
Joe and/or Gene Buckys came up a new acronym "4 and 1 club".
I think it went. 4 good ones and 1 that don't make it a .1.
We were loading outside the loading barn.
Tim B.
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goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
While perusing the net, I found this article. Lou Murdica talking about advice given him by Tony Boyer in his class. Closely read bottom two paragraphs:
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/murdica-tops-field-at-cactus-classic/
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/murdica-tops-field-at-cactus-classic/
goodgrouper
It seems that you are almost there. You have spoken of the grail and indicated a misunderstanding of its power within the same thread. The latter paragraphs you referenced in Lou's article describe the search for the mighty grail but you mentioned STEERING in another post as if skill held importance. I submit for your consideration that the skill required to win is the skill involved in implementation of the statement..."He told me to spend my money on barrels for those guns".
Certainly, all else being equal, skill would be paramount. As it turns out, with benchrest rifles "all else" is never equal.
Capability = (skill)(rifle^3)
It seems that you are almost there. You have spoken of the grail and indicated a misunderstanding of its power within the same thread. The latter paragraphs you referenced in Lou's article describe the search for the mighty grail but you mentioned STEERING in another post as if skill held importance. I submit for your consideration that the skill required to win is the skill involved in implementation of the statement..."He told me to spend my money on barrels for those guns".
Certainly, all else being equal, skill would be paramount. As it turns out, with benchrest rifles "all else" is never equal.
Capability = (skill)(rifle^3)
goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
Wilbur,
I'm not sure quite what you mean.
My points were these:
A 6ppc is easy to tune compared to most anything else out there.
Even if something ever beats the ppc in the accuracy department, it would still be cussed occasionally by people who won't admit they missed a condition.
Even a 30 BR will get blown in the wind as will a 6ppc.
The top competitors still use the 6ppc and recommend it.
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J
JohnVm
Guest
Yep, one of the sharpest on here.
James A. Kelbly
New member
At this years Super Shoot, we counted 8 tuners being used by the 307 shooters here. I really do not think it is worth listing tuners on a equipment sheet for something that less than 3% are using.
On the 30BR's there was one person in LV and 4 in HV with one of the HV shooters switching after two groups to a 6mm.
Jim
On the 30BR's there was one person in LV and 4 in HV with one of the HV shooters switching after two groups to a 6mm.
Jim