jackie schmidt
New member
So Mike, what is an "open mind" toward Benchrest Shooting?......jackie
Mike
Example shown and case proven.
If I am lying I am dying.A head of a sanctioning body told me he wished the 600/1000 yards shooters would go away.
The next guy in the chain of command told my father and myself we have enough shooters right now and we don't need anymore.A former national champion who houses him when he shoots in our area seconded that opinion.
We have met the enemy.
Lynn
Example shown and case proven.
If I am lying I am dying.A head of a sanctioning body told me he wished the 600/1000 yards shooters would go away.
The next guy in the chain of command told my father and myself we have enough shooters right now and we don't need anymore.A former national champion who houses him when he shoots in our area seconded that opinion.
We have met the enemy.
Lynn
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
IMO, an "open mind" toward Benchrest Shooting is what we should be trying to cultivate with the participants of other shooting sports. Comments and attitudes that are divisive can't help in that regard. Too many BR shooters is like too much money...there is no such thing.
I don't know all the answers, Jackie but how can ridiculing people who are spending lots of money competing in another shooting venue help entice them to try BR?--Mike
I don't mean to be overly analytical (it's what I do best), and in some ways I do agree with you, but let's be a bit more accurate
Of course there can be too many shooters. 100 people at a match, for example, would strain things badly, depending on the club & range. If you look at 1,000 yard benchrest, it developed a certain way -- a way many don't like -- because we routinely had 70 shooters at two of the three 1K benchrest clubs. And if Virginia had been able to keep Rob Ritchie's range, it would have been all three.
Because of the number of shooters, we just couldn't shoot 3 or 4 target aggs. We had to shoot "win or go home."
Size alone causes you to make compromises.
But I think Jackie means you also don't want to compromise your sport just to attract new shooters. If we doubled our size by signing up a lot of AR shooters, what do we do when they want to change "our" sport? All of a sudden, it isn't "our sport" anymore. (Of course, that attitude is the one Lynn objects to.)
If you think "our sport" could be better, change it now, without any thought of the impact on new membership. If you want to create a new product with the yardstick that the "number of members" is an important consideration, do just that.
And while Jackie was perhaps a bit dismissive, he's got a point. How was cowboy action shooting different from the other action shooting sports? Some people found it fun. Good on 'em. I found it fantasyland, and don't want to tell someone "they can't talk to Miss Kitty that way" before I fire my record target.
It's dismissive only in it sets us a part. Not better or worse, just apart.
Of course there can be too many shooters. 100 people at a match, for example, would strain things badly, depending on the club & range. If you look at 1,000 yard benchrest, it developed a certain way -- a way many don't like -- because we routinely had 70 shooters at two of the three 1K benchrest clubs. And if Virginia had been able to keep Rob Ritchie's range, it would have been all three.
Because of the number of shooters, we just couldn't shoot 3 or 4 target aggs. We had to shoot "win or go home."
Size alone causes you to make compromises.
But I think Jackie means you also don't want to compromise your sport just to attract new shooters. If we doubled our size by signing up a lot of AR shooters, what do we do when they want to change "our" sport? All of a sudden, it isn't "our sport" anymore. (Of course, that attitude is the one Lynn objects to.)
If you think "our sport" could be better, change it now, without any thought of the impact on new membership. If you want to create a new product with the yardstick that the "number of members" is an important consideration, do just that.
And while Jackie was perhaps a bit dismissive, he's got a point. How was cowboy action shooting different from the other action shooting sports? Some people found it fun. Good on 'em. I found it fantasyland, and don't want to tell someone "they can't talk to Miss Kitty that way" before I fire my record target.
It's dismissive only in it sets us a part. Not better or worse, just apart.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Charles, I understand your point, but there are ways to deal with those potential issues, and I'd rather deal with too many people than not enough. To few and there is only one outcome. Too many and clubs could use pre-registration and cut-offs or limits and I doubt it would take long for other/new local clubs to start holding matches and pick up the slack.
Right now it doesn't matter because frankly, we're a long way from that point.--Mike
Right now it doesn't matter because frankly, we're a long way from that point.--Mike
I was one of them before I was one of us and before I was one of them, I was one of---well, you get the point, there's a lot people that like to try different disciplines. As Charles said, there's "no better or worst", it's all fun. Some folks idea of fun is to focus the lenses to a red hot pin point and to some it's to not let it become work, totally different, but "no better or worst".
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LO-frickin'-L!!! That's exactly right on funny....I hadn't put it into so many words (I have friends who do the CA thing) but that's exactly it. I'm not much of a role player, I CAN do it for social reasons if it's required but it just aint me.
I agree with your last sentence too.
al
M
MarkR
Guest
Some really good thinking going on here IMHO. I believe that we (most of us that shoot BR) should look no farther than at home for a partial answer at least. How many of us have children (of the age of majority). I have two, one boy and one girl. I have shot some form of competition off and on since I was age 14 and I'm 58 now. My daughter, 34 years old, has never been more than barely inteested in shooting of any kind, mostly just to see what my son and I were doing with all our time, just recently she has come to me and wants me to instruct her with a handgun so that she can get her CCW.
My son, 36 yrs old started shooting on the High School rifle team in ROTC, unfortunately it had by that time been reduced to air rifles, but none the less, he was shooting, as well as hunting with me, helping me reload ammunition and go to some matches with me. He developed an interest in both indoor and 3D outdoor archery, and was a heck of a shot. He won the Jr. state championship in indoor archery three years in a row...what happened after that was the usual, girls and other interests with his friends. He still shoots some with me, but has zero interest in benchrest shooting as he is off now with his family, conquering the world in his own fashion.
What I'm trying to say here, I think, is that if we can't develop an interest in BR shooting with our own prodigy...do ya think it might be hard to interest someone you don't even know?
My first benchrest match was the Chippewa just prior to the supershoot 2 years ago. I had bought a rifle from a new friend that I met right here. He had a 40 XBR just worked over by Kelbly's with a brand ne Krieger barrel, Sightron 36X scope, and the rest was up to me. I had bitten off more than I could chew up and swallow at that time and even though I had a lot of experience reloading, forming brass for wildcats and makin the brass the best I knew how...I was deeply behind the power curve when it came to prepping BR quality brass. This BR game is a lot of information to learn, a lot of time to spend, a lot of money to layout, just to start to become competitive and basically (with the obvious exception of a few big matches) has little reward for all of this that has been expended, except for personal satisfaction. I'm not saying that bigger prizes will bring them in because in and of itself it wouldn't bring many in for that reason alone, but once again, I just don't think that the reward matches the outlay. That won't keep me from shooting BR, but I just don't think there are many with the mindset that we have.
My son, 36 yrs old started shooting on the High School rifle team in ROTC, unfortunately it had by that time been reduced to air rifles, but none the less, he was shooting, as well as hunting with me, helping me reload ammunition and go to some matches with me. He developed an interest in both indoor and 3D outdoor archery, and was a heck of a shot. He won the Jr. state championship in indoor archery three years in a row...what happened after that was the usual, girls and other interests with his friends. He still shoots some with me, but has zero interest in benchrest shooting as he is off now with his family, conquering the world in his own fashion.
What I'm trying to say here, I think, is that if we can't develop an interest in BR shooting with our own prodigy...do ya think it might be hard to interest someone you don't even know?
My first benchrest match was the Chippewa just prior to the supershoot 2 years ago. I had bought a rifle from a new friend that I met right here. He had a 40 XBR just worked over by Kelbly's with a brand ne Krieger barrel, Sightron 36X scope, and the rest was up to me. I had bitten off more than I could chew up and swallow at that time and even though I had a lot of experience reloading, forming brass for wildcats and makin the brass the best I knew how...I was deeply behind the power curve when it came to prepping BR quality brass. This BR game is a lot of information to learn, a lot of time to spend, a lot of money to layout, just to start to become competitive and basically (with the obvious exception of a few big matches) has little reward for all of this that has been expended, except for personal satisfaction. I'm not saying that bigger prizes will bring them in because in and of itself it wouldn't bring many in for that reason alone, but once again, I just don't think that the reward matches the outlay. That won't keep me from shooting BR, but I just don't think there are many with the mindset that we have.
4
4Mesh
Guest
Holy Smokes! What a long thread.
I have NEVER seen a thread on BRC get so many dissertations written on a single subject. Must less see a thread go 5 pages and stay on topic. Amazing!
Lots of good points were made here. But I think the things that have been cited as the norm are probably less the norm than anyone wants to admit.
In Wilbur's survey, he asked people who were no longer shooting. It stands to reason the answers from THOSE people would be one of the common reasons for quitting. Cost, time, health or, some folks taking a break. Ok...
Lynn seems to think its the management! And ya know what, I think he's RIGHT! Not at the sanctioning body level though, at the club level.
Listen, if I came here and ask what to do to quickly get up to speed in benchrest shooting, people will be quick to point out that I should go to a match, see what works, and begin there. Hey! That's great advise.
So, here's people asking how to get more shooters to matches, and I say, "GO TO A MATCH WHERE THEY DRAW MORE, SEE HOW IT IS DONE". How hard is that? If I use 1K BR as an example, there ARE ranges out there doing a successful job of drawing shooters. Now, why is it that I have been seeing posts on BRC for years now, people asking how to get more shooters, yet, not seeing them go to the biggest events in 1KBR to see how it is done? I don't understand...
Ask around to clubs that ARE growing the numbers. See what they are doing. Ask the folks who've lost lots of shooters what happened that it went that way. If they do not know, they are either fibbing to you or they never cared to begin with. The ones who care, know. They know nearly every one that leaves. I know at Williamsport, you can ask past presidents what happened to shooters who shot there when they were at the helm, and they will have an answer for damn near every one, if not every one. Why do they get >100 shooters at a regular weekly match? Well, gee, why not ask what they do different? From what I understand, Harris MN is growing at a great pace. There's a range here in Shippensburg PA that also has good turnout. So, what's the key? (pssssstt. ask em if they run the place like a business..)
These people are doing SOMETHING to make it happen. So what is it? Don't tell me it's cause the shooters are closeby, cause I see shooters from many states on the match reports. Williamsport only shoots on 10 benches, and only has 12, so it's not because they can shoot 40 at a time. Cant' blame the facility if they do it on 10 targets. They "Win or go home" so you can't blame not having enough shooting cause people drive there for potentially one target. PA's one of the most expensive states for gas, so, not that. Payouts are nice enough to make it fun, but, win 10 matches out of 10 and you still invested some serious coin for a season. Not gett'n rich, it ain't that! Hmm, this doesn't leave many of the things mentioned above as a factor. Age... Plenty of shooters 20-50 there too. Wife issues? Nope, plenty of them at matches too. Kids? Got em. Rules? Had strict rules, >100 shooters. No rules, > 100 shooters... Hmmm. Need for a sanctioning body and "Recognition"? Nope, hain't never had that neither! Too much weight is placed on that as well.
I don't know guys... That mirrors starting to look pretty ominous...
I have NEVER seen a thread on BRC get so many dissertations written on a single subject. Must less see a thread go 5 pages and stay on topic. Amazing!
Lots of good points were made here. But I think the things that have been cited as the norm are probably less the norm than anyone wants to admit.
In Wilbur's survey, he asked people who were no longer shooting. It stands to reason the answers from THOSE people would be one of the common reasons for quitting. Cost, time, health or, some folks taking a break. Ok...
Lynn seems to think its the management! And ya know what, I think he's RIGHT! Not at the sanctioning body level though, at the club level.
Listen, if I came here and ask what to do to quickly get up to speed in benchrest shooting, people will be quick to point out that I should go to a match, see what works, and begin there. Hey! That's great advise.
So, here's people asking how to get more shooters to matches, and I say, "GO TO A MATCH WHERE THEY DRAW MORE, SEE HOW IT IS DONE". How hard is that? If I use 1K BR as an example, there ARE ranges out there doing a successful job of drawing shooters. Now, why is it that I have been seeing posts on BRC for years now, people asking how to get more shooters, yet, not seeing them go to the biggest events in 1KBR to see how it is done? I don't understand...
Ask around to clubs that ARE growing the numbers. See what they are doing. Ask the folks who've lost lots of shooters what happened that it went that way. If they do not know, they are either fibbing to you or they never cared to begin with. The ones who care, know. They know nearly every one that leaves. I know at Williamsport, you can ask past presidents what happened to shooters who shot there when they were at the helm, and they will have an answer for damn near every one, if not every one. Why do they get >100 shooters at a regular weekly match? Well, gee, why not ask what they do different? From what I understand, Harris MN is growing at a great pace. There's a range here in Shippensburg PA that also has good turnout. So, what's the key? (pssssstt. ask em if they run the place like a business..)
These people are doing SOMETHING to make it happen. So what is it? Don't tell me it's cause the shooters are closeby, cause I see shooters from many states on the match reports. Williamsport only shoots on 10 benches, and only has 12, so it's not because they can shoot 40 at a time. Cant' blame the facility if they do it on 10 targets. They "Win or go home" so you can't blame not having enough shooting cause people drive there for potentially one target. PA's one of the most expensive states for gas, so, not that. Payouts are nice enough to make it fun, but, win 10 matches out of 10 and you still invested some serious coin for a season. Not gett'n rich, it ain't that! Hmm, this doesn't leave many of the things mentioned above as a factor. Age... Plenty of shooters 20-50 there too. Wife issues? Nope, plenty of them at matches too. Kids? Got em. Rules? Had strict rules, >100 shooters. No rules, > 100 shooters... Hmmm. Need for a sanctioning body and "Recognition"? Nope, hain't never had that neither! Too much weight is placed on that as well.
I don't know guys... That mirrors starting to look pretty ominous...
About 23/24 years ago my son and I were on the way home from a weekend 2 gun in Bristol, TN. I remarked that I was likely the only benchrest shooter within 100 miles of our house - maybe further. My son quickly replied, "That's sad Dad...the only one in a hundred miles and you aren't even good at it."
Mark dead on about the mind set. When I first started 1000 yard benchrest I was 26 years old, I'll be 66 in May and I still have the drive to try and do better. I've seen Fathers and grandfathers bring there kids, grandkids and even neighbors kids, and I can tell you this there were some great shooters among them, but not one has stuck with it like someone getting into it on there own. I've asked friends that hunt and like to shoot to come with me and shoot all they have to do is pay the entry fee, I would supply the rest. Most people are to busy with other thing in there lives. Its a lot like Bow Hunting, another one of my loves. You have to have the drive!
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
Wilbur
A good start would be asking the tactical shooters to give benchrest a try.
I would think it would draw in more shooters than wishing they would all go away like the current person in charge is hoping.Heck if we could get the 50 guys that get turned away to join us it would double the number of shooters we have at the Nationals now.Unfortunately we were told we have enough shooters already.
Lynn
A good start would be asking the tactical shooters to give benchrest a try.
I would think it would draw in more shooters than wishing they would all go away like the current person in charge is hoping.Heck if we could get the 50 guys that get turned away to join us it would double the number of shooters we have at the Nationals now.Unfortunately we were told we have enough shooters already.
Lynn
J
JimHeid
Guest
Many thanks for all the input.
However I now need to know how to proceed in building interest for our club.
Keep in mind these are non sanctioned 100 and 200 yard events.
How do you suggest a small club spark interest in this dicipline and make it available to the folks who may only wish to use a hunting style or varmmint type rifle? As well as attract those who already have the dedicated bench guns?
Thanks, Jim
However I now need to know how to proceed in building interest for our club.
Keep in mind these are non sanctioned 100 and 200 yard events.
How do you suggest a small club spark interest in this dicipline and make it available to the folks who may only wish to use a hunting style or varmmint type rifle? As well as attract those who already have the dedicated bench guns?
Thanks, Jim
jackie schmidt
New member
Thank You Charles, you got it.
At the Tomball Club Matches, I set up the Matches to where there is still the precision and competitive nature of Benchrest, but in a more relaxed atmosphere. For instance, the rules concerning the equipment are pretty liberal. In fact, in the top class, there is only one rule. The "Rifle" must be a legal firearm.
But these are Club Matches. In Registered Competition, I would like to see a list of items that we should "change" in order to attract more shooter, especially younger ones.
One fact remains, regardless of how you structure the rules, and the Sanctioning Bodies Protocols, shooters will still have to shoot just as good of aggs, or hit just as many X's, as before.
So what's the point.......jackie
At the Tomball Club Matches, I set up the Matches to where there is still the precision and competitive nature of Benchrest, but in a more relaxed atmosphere. For instance, the rules concerning the equipment are pretty liberal. In fact, in the top class, there is only one rule. The "Rifle" must be a legal firearm.
But these are Club Matches. In Registered Competition, I would like to see a list of items that we should "change" in order to attract more shooter, especially younger ones.
One fact remains, regardless of how you structure the rules, and the Sanctioning Bodies Protocols, shooters will still have to shoot just as good of aggs, or hit just as many X's, as before.
So what's the point.......jackie
jackie schmidt
New member
Jim, here is how we do in at The Tomball Gun Club Benchrest Club Matches.
I have three classes. Factory, Modified and Benchrest. The Factory Class means just that, Factory. It must have a nagazine, and all Rifles sold as Factory Target Models, (40x, Savage F Class, etc), will shoot in Modified. I decide the Rifles eligibilty for a Class. The only thing a shooter can do to a Factory Rifle is improve the bedding.
Modified Class represents Factory Actions that have been customized. This is your typical Remington or other such with a custom barrel, stock, trigger, etc. The stock must be 2,5 inches or less wide at the forearm. There are lots of them out there. NBRSA Legal HBR Rifles can shoot in Modified.
The top class is Benchrest, which as I said before, can be fired with any legal firearm. This class also has the most participation. On any given Sunday, 3/4 of the shooters will be shooting in the Benchrest Class.
We shoot one aggregate for score on a Sunday Morning, plus a warm-up.. Of the 5 Matches, three are 100 yard, two are 200 yard. It takes up the entire morning, and every body is pretty well ready to go just after noon.
We have been averaging between 35 and 40 shooters. I only charge $15 as an entry, this helps pay for the Targets and Awards, which are a rather attractive Blue, Red, or White ribbon for the top three finishers in each cless.
I also have a Shooter of the Year, which is determined by the shooters combined best 4 out of 5 matches.
This seems to work. I run it with all of the safety procedure and time limits of a regular Benchrest Match. But aside from that, I keep things as informal as possible.
the purpose of these Matches is to promote extreme accuracy Shooting. I honestly do not know what more we can do.
......jackie
I have three classes. Factory, Modified and Benchrest. The Factory Class means just that, Factory. It must have a nagazine, and all Rifles sold as Factory Target Models, (40x, Savage F Class, etc), will shoot in Modified. I decide the Rifles eligibilty for a Class. The only thing a shooter can do to a Factory Rifle is improve the bedding.
Modified Class represents Factory Actions that have been customized. This is your typical Remington or other such with a custom barrel, stock, trigger, etc. The stock must be 2,5 inches or less wide at the forearm. There are lots of them out there. NBRSA Legal HBR Rifles can shoot in Modified.
The top class is Benchrest, which as I said before, can be fired with any legal firearm. This class also has the most participation. On any given Sunday, 3/4 of the shooters will be shooting in the Benchrest Class.
We shoot one aggregate for score on a Sunday Morning, plus a warm-up.. Of the 5 Matches, three are 100 yard, two are 200 yard. It takes up the entire morning, and every body is pretty well ready to go just after noon.
We have been averaging between 35 and 40 shooters. I only charge $15 as an entry, this helps pay for the Targets and Awards, which are a rather attractive Blue, Red, or White ribbon for the top three finishers in each cless.
I also have a Shooter of the Year, which is determined by the shooters combined best 4 out of 5 matches.
This seems to work. I run it with all of the safety procedure and time limits of a regular Benchrest Match. But aside from that, I keep things as informal as possible.
the purpose of these Matches is to promote extreme accuracy Shooting. I honestly do not know what more we can do.
......jackie
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
One idea would be not to treat the new shooters as registered. In other words, you could have the "fun" shooters all shoot on the same relay and run them through just like everyone else...but as a seperate match within a match. Just establish some simple rules and have them follow the same existing safety guidelines as everyone else.--Mike
Lynn, I really wish you would let it go. Either that or do something about it. Nobody told you that you have enough shooters already and there is no "person in charge". The directors each have one vote and the president only votes when there's a tie. The VP doesn't vote.
How about you asking those tactical guys to come over and shoot with you and leave out that disgruntled rhetoric (altogether). I don't think they'll come but if you do that's all that matters.
How about you asking those tactical guys to come over and shoot with you and leave out that disgruntled rhetoric (altogether). I don't think they'll come but if you do that's all that matters.
Wilbur
Not to argue with you as you must have heard it differently but when you call me and my father a liar i will respond.The vice president told my father and myself at the nationals that we already had enough shooters.If he told you something different he is the liar.I realize you would rather not see that in print as a past director or hear that the president wishes all the 600/1000 yard shooters would go away but it is a FACT not an opinion.Sorry if your getting phone calls from those in charge I do realize they advertise here.
As to doing something about it I wasn't allowed to go to the meeting in Texas and tell them what I think of how they are running things.The president took away my membership.If you look at the meetings minutes published in the nbrsa news none of the agenda items got voted on.
So much for posting the truth.
You can now bow under there pressure and re-ban me.
My 77 year old father said for you to call him 707-586-1518
Lynn
Not to argue with you as you must have heard it differently but when you call me and my father a liar i will respond.The vice president told my father and myself at the nationals that we already had enough shooters.If he told you something different he is the liar.I realize you would rather not see that in print as a past director or hear that the president wishes all the 600/1000 yard shooters would go away but it is a FACT not an opinion.Sorry if your getting phone calls from those in charge I do realize they advertise here.
As to doing something about it I wasn't allowed to go to the meeting in Texas and tell them what I think of how they are running things.The president took away my membership.If you look at the meetings minutes published in the nbrsa news none of the agenda items got voted on.
So much for posting the truth.
You can now bow under there pressure and re-ban me.
My 77 year old father said for you to call him 707-586-1518
Lynn
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J
Jim S
Guest
Al brings up some very good points, I have only ever shot my 6br f-class rig in one BR event, but in f-class, I think most shooters make it a point to come out to the big matches. Setting time aside early in the year, then if they end up with no honey do's they try to make the little ones on short notice. At least in a palma/f-class the number of workers is the same weather 20 or 80 shooters show. But I think most guys want to attend the full matches, I have blown off matches at one range for a few years now because they have quite a few matches a year, i always think I would like to attend, one a year, there but since they have so many I never plan them ahead and then the day of the match always seems there is somthing else to do.