Where Have All The Shooters Gone?

[mwezell]

As to cost...I often have people come into the shop and see BR rifles, and they almost always ask "how much is a gun like that?". I tell them and if they still seem interested, total cost of getting started in BR usually comes up. I explain that they can jump in with both feet and buy all new or that if money is an issue that they can get into it, with good used equipment for substantially less money. The number I use typically to get into the game on the "cheap" is about $4K..give or take a little. The most common response is that it costs too much. But oh so many times they hang around to talk some more, and before long they begin tell you about the $40K bass boat they have in the garage--Mike

 

[Charles E]

As to cost...IThe number I use typically to get into the game on the "cheap" is about $4K..give or take a little.

If you want it badly enough, I'd say about half that. Wait until somebody's quitting the game & selling everything. Or don't listen to the hype & use a trued Remington, if you can get the action almost free. (You can shoot right-right as fast as anything except for R-L-R, and you *can* be competitive). You can make a front rest out of blocks of wood. Most stable rest I ever had I made that way. Means you have to be a bag-squeezer, but that's a plus too.

Etc.

I got everything for $900 back in the early 1990s. Maxed out both my credit card and checking "ready reserve" (and survived). I figure everything has doubled since then, so $2,000 would do it.

Of course, you really have to want it to do things that way, and I guess this thread is about attracting people who don't "want it" that much. Maybe that's part of the problem.

As you (& Wilbur) said

The most common response is that it costs too much. But oh so many times they hang around to talk some more, and before long they begin tell you about the $40K bass boat they have in the garage--Mike

 

[caroby]

If you want it badly enough, I'd say about half that. Wait until somebody's quitting the game & selling everything. Or don't listen to the hype & use a trued Remington, if you can get the action almost free. (You can shoot right-right as fast as anything except for R-L-R, and you *can* be competitive). You can make a front rest out of blocks of wood. Most stable rest I ever had I made that way. Means you have to be a bag-squeezer, but that's a plus too.

Etc.

I got everything for $900 back in the early 1990s. Maxed out both my credit card and checking "ready reserve" (and survived). I figure everything has doubled since then, so $2,000 would do it.

Of course, you really have to want it to do things that way, and I guess this thread is about attracting people who don't "want it" that much. Maybe that's part of the problem.

As you (& Wilbur) said

VERY WELL SAID Charles..! I have read this thread time and time again......... Your last response is ABSOLUTLY what I had in mind.

I've said this in the past A LOT...." To do anything and do it WELL, one MUST >Want It< "...First and FORMOST.. Through all the good and bad... One must >want to<... Time, Family, MONEY, Occupation.........."Other hobbies"... What are or where are "your" priorities..>?<.... >Gotta want to with passion<...!

How do we find these people...? Honestly, ya don't ... THEY find us. Just one of the reasons why this sport has ALWAYS had a "smallish" following / participation both young and old.

cale

 

[katokoch]

How do we find these people...? Honestly, ya don't ... THEY find us. Just one of the reasons why this sport has ALWAYS had a "smallish" following / participation both young and old.

I've read several posts so far that hint at changing the game to attract more shooters (i.e. throwing AKs into the mix, etc) and I may have certainly missed it, but what about proactively going and finding more shooters to join? Like going above and beyond inviting people watching matches to join in on the fun?

Any advertisement at ranges for BR matches? Discounts for bringing a buddy or two to a match?

Despite the cost, I don't think the game(s) should be changed. It may be very tough to bootstrap on a small budget (I don't have a $40,000 bass boat, but I do have student loans that I'm starting to pay off after graduating), but that doesn't mean you can't be more aggressive about getting shooters to join. There's some shooters out there that are huge advocates of BR shooting and have contributed with a lot of additional members, but I'm thinking more along the lines of a league or club-wide approach vs. relying on some very welcoming shooters to rope 'em in.

Please correct me if I'm wrong... but I believe the shooters are out there (young and old) and there will always be a bunch intrigued by the most precise shooting.

Charles- Don't leave out gas, match fees, range fees, and ammo in the cost. You can get used equipment for cheap, but it's no good if you can't afford to keep shooting it either. That is one cost component that surprised me, despite my passion for shooting.

 

[Lynn]

Andy
I shot 600/1000 yard bench for around 10 years and my father still does.
Wilbur has asked me to dummy up so I will.
Lynn

 

[Wilbur]

Benchrest has had some "promoters" but they were (or are) one man shows. Typically, benchrest shooters want to go shoot their rifles, get a fair scoring, and then go home and B**** about the magazine. Anything extra is left to somebody else..."they" I believe it is.

 

[JohnVm]

Benchrest is a "passion" to shoot the most accurate rifle you can afford against folks just like you and to see how you stack up against others with this passion. You cannot just buy this stuff and win matches, you cannot just spend your way to the top and you cannot use expertise to win with a gun that won't. There is no major money in this sport to be won or fame to be gained but by a small crowd, so for all those who want to make lots of money and become famous this is not the sport either. The truth is, you either love to shoot accurate guns for some bragging rights for a week or 2 among your peers or you don't. If you do, you will find ways to improve your program until you are competitive by learning to tune a rifle, tune a load and shoot in the worst possible conditions regardless of having a Caldwell rest vs a 1000 dollar rest, regardless of a very fancy rifle with custom paint, polished steel and ejectors etc vs a sleeved Remington or a varmint rifle.
I do think that the small none sanctioned shoots are the gateway into this sport with the relaxed atmosphere and the ability to try the sport without a major commitment. There is usually equipment for sale that helps the new guy buy and try at reduced costs. I do think most are intimidated at the initial cost and commitment and then competing against the "big boys" in their first competition. I would over compare as getting in to car racing via nascar or nhra.
As far as where is everyone gone, well gas prices are keeping more people at home and so is a poor and unstable economy. Things are picking up, the trap clubs in my area are starting to get as busy as they were 5 - 10 years ago, hopefully we will see it pick up in BR this year also!
I do have to give Wilbur credit, he sure tells it straight, I really enjoy reading your posts

 

[Andy B]

Maybe I missed something too. I got that there is a percieved attatude about BR shooters the stops interrest. Costs are a given in anything. Personal interrest is required, friendly people seem to help gain and feed that interrest. No disrespect was intended. Didnt think I suggested you hadnt shot BR . I would offer anyone interrested / or during a match with a mechanical, to to use my equipment . I'll just stick to reading the posts .. Sorry again if I offended anyone not ment that way ..

Andy B.

 

[GerryM]

I would like to see a thread about promoting the game'
Lets here what some people are doing out there and what clubs.

 

[swmft]

As to cost...I often have people come into the shop and see BR rifles, and they almost always ask "how much is a gun like that?". I tell them and if they still seem interested, total cost of getting started in BR usually comes up. I explain that they can jump in with both feet and buy all new or that if money is an issue that they can get into it, with good used equipment for substantially less money. The number I use typically to get into the game on the "cheap" is about $4K..give or take a little. The most common response is that it costs too much. But oh so many times they hang around to talk some more, and before long they begin tell you about the $40K bass boat they have in the garage--Mike

Boat Break Out Another Thousand

I live in Florida so the boating is always there, the cost of rods and reals rigs and fuel far outstrip the cost of a weekend of shooting.:but the family participates in the "boating". We need to find a way to make the events more family friendly to bring in more young shooters. Maybe an event using the old cork shooters for the small kids to get a start on a new generation.

 

[GerryM]

I can't see whats so diffacult , trying to promote shooting off the bench.
There are many ways. As the youth goes, why not a 22rf league off the bench. Its fun and inexpensive to start and to shoot.
Then a little bigger the centerfires. Like the 222 223 cals Theresd plenty of rifles available at reasonable costs to get the little guys started.
The key is some kind of director that takes enough interest to start a league. Heck you could even do one indoors with air rifles and scopes.

 

[Wilbur]

I would like to see a thread about promoting the game'
Lets here what some people are doing out there and what clubs.

I ran a "loaner" program for two, maybe three seasons with unbelievable success percentagewise. I had a rifle built on a Panda that I won in the merchandise drawing at the nationals. The remainder of the parts including the chamber and paint job were donated as well. A complete "loading" station was cooked up with stuff I either already had or was donated - table and tarp included. Bullets, powder, primers, rods, patches...etc, were all donated or I bought them myself.

A "turnkey" benchrest setup if you will.

The premise was that a potential competitor could simply show up, pay the entry fee (often forgiven) and sit down with all the latest such that they could see the game as it really is - at no expense. There were a few folks that did not return on Sunday (didn't call or send flowers) but not many. I think about a third ended up buying in for the long run.

That lasted as long as I was willing to do it and nobody offered to help. EVERYBODY was willing to donate but nobody was willing to haul all that stuff around from match to match. Nobody ever offered to take a turn come match day to help the "donatee" get through the match. It finally wore me down and I stopped doin' it. It would appear that I'm complaining but that's not the case. I cooked it up, begged up the stuff and knew going in what it was gonna be. I'm just saying that regardless of the success rate, there was not much interest in continuing once I gave it up and that's completely understandable. It's hard to shoot well while doing something like that - which is the reason I gave it up.

This would work well if it were better planned and better supported.

 

[mike in co]

yes but....
how much an hour were you making back then, and what do people make today ?
its all relative.
my dad worked for 30 years at a company as a tool maker. topped out at about 10 bucks an hour....
my mom went to work a year or two before he retired, and STARTED at 9 something an hour doing day care for kids!.....
my last "job" hourly...i was making in excess of 22 an hour( my first hourly job was 1.25/hr, my lowest was 0.90/hr)......my daughter..is making in excess of 30/hr with a high school diploma!

let them shoot early, if they like it when they have funds they will come back.
you cannot force anything..

AND YES RIGHT NOW ITS THE ECONOMY....

mike in co

You really can,t put the total Blame on kids . We were all in the same boat at one time .
I can,t see how a 25 year old married with kids is going to have the time or money to shoot .
When I started shooting Registered Trap a bag of shot was $3.25 now it,s close to $30.00 .
a round of practice (25 targets) was $1.25 now $4.50 to $8.00 a round .
A good trap gun cost $500/600.00 now the sky is the limit .

It,s close to the same with Rifles if your going to do more then just go bang ?

 

[Wilbur]

"AND YES RIGHT NOW ITS THE ECONOMY...."

Has to be - nothing else has changed from when we were having to limit attendance.

 

[mike in co]

some bright spots......
a non -gun person i know, democrate to the base fibre, bought her grandson a red rider bb gun for christmas....its a start.
my son in law was raised by an aunt and uncle who live in mid california farm country. they had my 7yr old grandson shooting the last time he was out there.
mike in co

 

[BountyHunter]

Hmm maybe I am an outsider and an insider but here is my two cents with some random thoughts.

I went to a 1K match in 98 at Rob Ritchies. Dave Tooley was building me a LR rifle for deer hunting at the time and I went to the match to talk to him. He sat me down on the bench with his heavy gun and I busted 2 or 3 clay pigeons in a row. He offered to let me shoot it at the match, but I declined but was hooked, plus others did too. That told me a lot about the class of people shooting that day. I shot 1K regularily until my new job put me on the road 2-3 weeks a month. Now I am lucky if I get to shoot the Nationals and the World Open. VA has had it's share of problems with ranges and that makes it tough to travel to matches 5-8 hours away the one or two weekends I have to shoot. Plus that "honey do" list is waiting.

As for tactical it is not about shooting at human targets. I occassionally get to shoot a local "tactical match" 45 minutes from the house, under two canopies on old rugs and off bipods, that has 2" dots, ballons, clay pigeons and all kinds of odd shaped steel out to about 800 or so yards. It is about hittting the target first time, firing 20-40 round, having lunch and fun with friends and everyone helping everyone. I use the same rifle I can shoot F class with (rare occasions), can hunt with or just have a ton of fun with it and the shooters. BTW leave the range at 2PM every day.

As for SR BR or score I have watched here for years the shooters fuss, cuss, and basically say everthing else is second rate. Not that you guys have a lock on that compared to 1K shooters either. I have been chastised here for using the BountyHunter name by some of the posters on this thread. Heaven help me if I dared show up at a SR match without all the top equip and was stupid enough to ask for help to figure out how to really do it! I wanted to, it seems that building a competitive SR gun/barrel is like finding diamonds laying on top the ground.

It is the supreme accuracy sport at SR and is extremely hard and costly to be competitive is the message that is articulated very clearly here and that makes it is hard to see with all the other issues, where is the fun for the other 90%. You have numerous posts of top shooters buying multiple barrels every year, shooting 30-100 shots and getting rid of them, having to modify existing scopes with new reticles and POI improvements etc. Of course it also seems that to be a top SR shooter you have to have a lathe or a friend who has one as barrels are used like underwear.

How many posts have the SR shooters here posted about the uselessness of the current class system with the sporter. "Change got it that way, but damn if we want to change it to make it better."

I know a lot of the tactical shooters swear they have guns that shoot .100 all day long and no I do not believe it. I have seen the posts here challenge that with $. Take that flyer to a tactical match, post it and have a tactical/hunting rifle challenge match for $. Show them your guns, swap and fire them.

Williamsport makes a lot of return on investment with their BR school and it seems that other places have too. Hmm wonder why?

If the sanctioning bodies could ever come up with a true "Factory and Modified Class" for neophytes (not another top shooter who just wants another piece of wood", and have those shoot against each other, that would really get entry level shooters to at least try. I know when VA pushed the factory class it brought a lot of emails/phone calls that resulted in new shooters showing up. The problem was none of the clubs could standardize the rules amongst themselves and a factory gun at one club was not a factory at the next club.

The gut check questions are with $6 gas, the other costs etc, how can all of the clubs, number one "attract a new shooter and #2 keep them coming back?

Maybe the sanctioning bodies need to really address the factory/modified class issues and single elimination and out for 1K. How can we run an agg match or something similar with more shooting for all clubs? 600 yd does it no problem.

Maybe, different classes for short range too. Do you really need a 10.5 lb and sporter class when they are in actuality shot with the same gun 99.9% of the time or did I miss that one? How about a factory or modified class?

How can the courses of fire and matches be conducted in 1 day for a local match and say two days for regional etc? Costs are an issue, you cannot say it is just a rich man's sport and expect attendance to pick up.

Maybe club discussions on how to handle new shooters and who is directly responsible to muzzle the "club Grinch" and keep him away from them.

Can someone take the time to set the new shooter down behind a good gun, in tune and walk them thru shooting a good group. In 1K in VA we found it really helped a lot if "new shooters" were allowed to have a coach the first match or two to help them get over jitters and get things done correctly and safely.

Finally clubs that shoot and have fun keep shooters, drama drives them away.

Anway just some thoughts to ponder.

Herman

 

[mwezell]

Good post....

 

[KEYBEAR]

I agree with BountyHunter . A lot of sports have priced them self right out of the market for most people .
Today it cost tens of thousands of dollars to compete Tractor pulling it the same in the shooting sports . All shooting sports needs is to make it affordable to most .

 

[mike in co]

my local club shoots SIX classes in "benchrest"
two are 22/17 rimfire...sporter/6x and target/anyx..all factory rifles
center fire are"
varmit...any power/any centerfire...factory rifle
hunter 6x/30-30 case or larger....factory rifle
sniper any power/30-30 or larger case...factory rifle
"br" any /any.....this is where 6 ppc is found along with a few others.///the only non factory class.
its a small club and we get 6-12 shooters with more at our "annual" shoot.
100yds with score targets....no group shooting...
when guys get serious they go up to ault or out of state...
i run a mil surplus 100 yd iron sight stock mil bolt action natch...i get 6-12 shooters per month......
we run a 200 iron sight mil match...iron sights stock guns..position or bench....m1a1'a garand's misc and a couple of ar's but they shoot in thier own class.
we shoot 4x scopes on the above two , once a year in a "sniper" match.
all fun, low pressure matches....
we have a 1000 member club, maybe 200 shoot on a regular basis....

mike in co

 

[Charles E]

So much talk about gas prices. Even one guy who blames Obama (usually called a "socialist") for not doing something (i.e., interfering in the free market economy). But as the bartender in Irma La Douce said, "That's another story."

* * *

When I go to a match, all I see are pickup trucks. A few small, most big. Mine too, nowadays, a GMC Sierra. So one day Joel & I were coming back from a match, and the alternator gives out. I keep driving -- maybe we can make it on the battery.

But no, finally I have to call my wife to come get us. Ain't about to leave anything in the car as it is towed to be fixed. Now, this was a 1K match at Hawks Ridge. We both have LGs and HGs. These are big, wide, awkward HGs. Need different rests than the LGs. So it's four guns, four big rests, and all the associated equipment. Oh yeah, Joel's about 6-5 and 250. I'm 6-4 and 190.

So all this gear & me & Joel fit nicely in my wife's '97 Camry, which also gets about 35 mpg on the highway. That's a 33% savings in gas, right there. We even had room to bring my wife along.

As far as miles go, that $4.00 a gallon gas just became $2.64. Plus, I suppose, some air shocks?