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benenglish
Guest
Generally, when the banhammer hits this hard, this quick, on a board this (normally) civil, a congrats is in order for the responsible Mod. (And, compared to my usual hangouts, this is a *very* civil place.)
So, thanks.
Al (Nyhus), for the first time in my life, I completely disagree with you. I shoot one sport seriously, 1000 yard benchrest. It is so serious, my wife sometimes claims I don't have any fun. I also shoot rimfire BR, and IBS point-blank score. Those are always fun. I rarely win, I don't fuss about having the latest & greatest, etc. etc. Often, I shoot these at the club match level.
Now, if entry fees went up for my just for fun shoots, I'd have to think twice about it. If the club matches disappeared completely, I'd *really* have to think twice about it. As things stand now, several IBS matches a year get my money, and at a match I'm not apt to take a top 3.
Maybe I'm alone in this, in which case I'll hush. But what you're suggesting all sounds so serious & professional.
* * *
BTW, I'm not sure money solves the help issue. At Camp Butner, we've tried to hire a pit crew. Pretty good pay, admittedly not the best. Problem is, no takers. As I look at the solutions to a number of problems in my long life, throwing money at them has rarely worked.
* * *
Benchrest does have at least one thing going for it, old men. How many of you can get down into prone & shoot a match? How many would enjoy that? How many can run around as required by 3-gun? & so on. Whether to think of us benchrest shooters as just plain small in number, or whether we're an elite group has never much worried me.
Now, if entry fees went up for my just for fun shoots, I'd have to think twice about it. If the club matches disappeared completely, I'd *really* have to think twice about it. As things stand now, several IBS matches a year get my money, and at a match I'm not apt to take a top 3.
Maybe I'm alone in this, in which case I'll hush. But what you're suggesting all sounds so serious & professional.
* * *
BTW, I'm not sure money solves the help issue. At Camp Butner, we've tried to hire a pit crew. Pretty good pay, admittedly not the best. Problem is, no takers. As I look at the solutions to a number of problems in my long life, throwing money at them has rarely worked.
* * *
Benchrest does have at least one thing going for it, old men. How many of you can get down into prone & shoot a match? How many would enjoy that? How many can run around as required by 3-gun? & so on. Whether to think of us benchrest shooters as just plain small in number, or whether we're an elite group has never much worried me.
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benenglish
Guest
Further thoughts, prompted by the guys even older than me
Let me see if I can pull some thought threads together.
Earlier, I was willing to allow as to how getting youth involved for life might not be viable and asked if this, then, was merely a marketing problem.
Others pointed out that young folks (say, younger than 40-ish) are generally building lives and don't have the time and money to get into benchrest, an activity that requires far more of a time commitment than many other, easier shooting sports.
Recently, a couple of gentlemen older than me recounted tales that remind us that young boys in the 1950s and before considered a rifle to be a normal piece of sports equipment.
I think all those things are related.
The marketing that needs to be done to get retirees to start any shooting sport was done to them when they were kids. They had summers with .22s or Benjamin pumps and happy memories of those times that will last forever. When they're old(er), the kids are gone, and there's some extra money in the bank, they will naturally gravitate back to shooting.
The same thing happens with cars. How many men waited until they were 60 to buy or build the hot rod they wanted more than life itself when they were 15? Hot Rod Magazine marketed to them as kids, then the adults, much later in life, finally spent the money.
Women can be just as crazy about buying back their youth. The first generation of girls who went out and had careers were also the first to own Barbies. A few years ago, that generation (born, say, 1950-1955) reached their peak earning years and started buying back their youth. Mattel did the marketing to them when they were 5 or 8 years old. When they hit 45, it was not unusual to see them plunk down $10K for a mint-condition #1 Barbie doll.
What's being marketed to kids today? What desires are being programmed into them that will translate into laying down the money to enter a hobby 30 years from now? Video games are, despite my complete failure to grok their value, the chosen art form of a generation (or two or three, if we're honest). Heck, the current issue of The Economist has a 10-page special report on video games as art, as economic forces, etc. What kind of shooting happens in video games? It's the stuff that goes bang-bang-bang, really, really fast.
So what do I see when I go to the range these days? Black rifles, steel-case ammo, and people unloading as fast as they can on targets close enough to spit on.
The marketing our fathers did to us ("This rifle is a meaningful tool, one to be respected." "Here's 3 22LR cartridges. You better bring back at least 2 squirrels." etc.) finds voice when we're 50 and we actually enjoy hitting small targets from a long distance away.
The marketing done to kids today is setting the stage for a future when the static sorts of accuracy-oriented sports will be nearly moribund, sought out only by a self-selected group of, well, folks just like attend benchrest matches today.
In 30 years, when all these trends have played out, there will be accuracy matches. (No shooting sport ever dies completely, does it? You can even find black powder matches using matchlocks if you care to look.) But the popular accuracy matches will be the sniper matches, where participants move with stealth and shoot at unknown distances, just like their dopplegangers in the videogames of their youth.
All this is my way of saying everybody is right. Lack of youth, overemphasis on youth, lack of income, lack of maturity, lack of time, lack of what we may think of as the "right" influences on the young, the marketing to the young that is actually occurring, and myriad other factors explain why some sports wax and others wane.
To really figure all this out, though, we'd need to start with reliable figures on how many people shoot what sports at what frequency. I'm not even sure that data exists but if it does, some enterprising young doctoral candidate has a thesis waiting to be written.
Let me see if I can pull some thought threads together.
Earlier, I was willing to allow as to how getting youth involved for life might not be viable and asked if this, then, was merely a marketing problem.
Others pointed out that young folks (say, younger than 40-ish) are generally building lives and don't have the time and money to get into benchrest, an activity that requires far more of a time commitment than many other, easier shooting sports.
Recently, a couple of gentlemen older than me recounted tales that remind us that young boys in the 1950s and before considered a rifle to be a normal piece of sports equipment.
I think all those things are related.
The marketing that needs to be done to get retirees to start any shooting sport was done to them when they were kids. They had summers with .22s or Benjamin pumps and happy memories of those times that will last forever. When they're old(er), the kids are gone, and there's some extra money in the bank, they will naturally gravitate back to shooting.
The same thing happens with cars. How many men waited until they were 60 to buy or build the hot rod they wanted more than life itself when they were 15? Hot Rod Magazine marketed to them as kids, then the adults, much later in life, finally spent the money.
Women can be just as crazy about buying back their youth. The first generation of girls who went out and had careers were also the first to own Barbies. A few years ago, that generation (born, say, 1950-1955) reached their peak earning years and started buying back their youth. Mattel did the marketing to them when they were 5 or 8 years old. When they hit 45, it was not unusual to see them plunk down $10K for a mint-condition #1 Barbie doll.
What's being marketed to kids today? What desires are being programmed into them that will translate into laying down the money to enter a hobby 30 years from now? Video games are, despite my complete failure to grok their value, the chosen art form of a generation (or two or three, if we're honest). Heck, the current issue of The Economist has a 10-page special report on video games as art, as economic forces, etc. What kind of shooting happens in video games? It's the stuff that goes bang-bang-bang, really, really fast.
So what do I see when I go to the range these days? Black rifles, steel-case ammo, and people unloading as fast as they can on targets close enough to spit on.
The marketing our fathers did to us ("This rifle is a meaningful tool, one to be respected." "Here's 3 22LR cartridges. You better bring back at least 2 squirrels." etc.) finds voice when we're 50 and we actually enjoy hitting small targets from a long distance away.
The marketing done to kids today is setting the stage for a future when the static sorts of accuracy-oriented sports will be nearly moribund, sought out only by a self-selected group of, well, folks just like attend benchrest matches today.
In 30 years, when all these trends have played out, there will be accuracy matches. (No shooting sport ever dies completely, does it? You can even find black powder matches using matchlocks if you care to look.) But the popular accuracy matches will be the sniper matches, where participants move with stealth and shoot at unknown distances, just like their dopplegangers in the videogames of their youth.
All this is my way of saying everybody is right. Lack of youth, overemphasis on youth, lack of income, lack of maturity, lack of time, lack of what we may think of as the "right" influences on the young, the marketing to the young that is actually occurring, and myriad other factors explain why some sports wax and others wane.
To really figure all this out, though, we'd need to start with reliable figures on how many people shoot what sports at what frequency. I'm not even sure that data exists but if it does, some enterprising young doctoral candidate has a thesis waiting to be written.
benenglish, well said......
I've owned 3 really restorable/buildable '69 Camaro's and a 70 Challenger 340 (and Nova's and 4X4's and El Camino's etc) and sold every one of them unfinished during moves and tight times. NOW, in the last half of my life I can finally begin afford to "do stuff right" and am wrapping up the familial stuff (my youngest is gonna' be 4 yrs old soon!!!) and have lost my interest in the old car thang, mainly because in the last 30yrs I've MET the guys that drive them and don't really want to be one!!!
But guns I can just get more wrapped up in.
al
I've owned 3 really restorable/buildable '69 Camaro's and a 70 Challenger 340 (and Nova's and 4X4's and El Camino's etc) and sold every one of them unfinished during moves and tight times. NOW, in the last half of my life I can finally begin afford to "do stuff right" and am wrapping up the familial stuff (my youngest is gonna' be 4 yrs old soon!!!) and have lost my interest in the old car thang, mainly because in the last 30yrs I've MET the guys that drive them and don't really want to be one!!!
But guns I can just get more wrapped up in.
al
The participation thing has been talked about many times here on the site, also in benchrest meetings .
Some blame it on the cost of shooting Rig rest etc.
some say a lack of mentoring,
Others say cost of matches and travel, I think most of this adds up.
Takeing that into consideration theres also a lack of promoting the game by both associations.
The clubs do what they can, but the rest is up to both the shooters and both orginizations
In the past i have heard a lot about the sport or game as not growing.
If you look back at the begining your going to see about 2 to 300 shooters in 1949 or 1950.
The numbers are way bigger then that today, also consider its world wide instead of just something done in the USA,
Still even more work has to be done.
Some blame it on the cost of shooting Rig rest etc.
some say a lack of mentoring,
Others say cost of matches and travel, I think most of this adds up.
Takeing that into consideration theres also a lack of promoting the game by both associations.
The clubs do what they can, but the rest is up to both the shooters and both orginizations
In the past i have heard a lot about the sport or game as not growing.
If you look back at the begining your going to see about 2 to 300 shooters in 1949 or 1950.
The numbers are way bigger then that today, also consider its world wide instead of just something done in the USA,
Still even more work has to be done.
jackie schmidt
New member
Ok, here is a different take.
I have the opposite problem as many who have posted. At this time, my Shop is busier than we have ever been, have been since the first of 2011. I missed the majority of the shooting season last year simply because I cannot be in two places at once. My business has to come first.
For the forseeable future, it looks to continue. That means not much shooting. I will devote what time I can take off to running the Tomball Gun Club Benchrest Club Matches.
I do have another hobby interest, that being my 67 Chevelle. I just spent the better part of $15,000 having one of the new TCI 6-Speed Automatics installed, along with a Global West Rear Disc Brake Conversion. (I had done the front conversion years back). I picture a Vortec Supercharger in the near future, 8 lbs of boost in that big Rat would put out the better part of 750 HP. Nice street car.
In the meantime, I will just hang out. I have plenty of bullets, primers, powder, barrels, etc, just not much time........jackie
I have the opposite problem as many who have posted. At this time, my Shop is busier than we have ever been, have been since the first of 2011. I missed the majority of the shooting season last year simply because I cannot be in two places at once. My business has to come first.
For the forseeable future, it looks to continue. That means not much shooting. I will devote what time I can take off to running the Tomball Gun Club Benchrest Club Matches.
I do have another hobby interest, that being my 67 Chevelle. I just spent the better part of $15,000 having one of the new TCI 6-Speed Automatics installed, along with a Global West Rear Disc Brake Conversion. (I had done the front conversion years back). I picture a Vortec Supercharger in the near future, 8 lbs of boost in that big Rat would put out the better part of 750 HP. Nice street car.
In the meantime, I will just hang out. I have plenty of bullets, primers, powder, barrels, etc, just not much time........jackie
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The tactical matches at our range cut the shooters off at 250 young shooters and they pay more for there rifles than the 100-200 yard benchrest guys do.
There scopes cost more as well.
The problem with benchrest is benchrest shooters never recognize what the real problems are no matter how many times you tell them and I am under 50.
Lynn
There scopes cost more as well.
The problem with benchrest is benchrest shooters never recognize what the real problems are no matter how many times you tell them and I am under 50.
Lynn
'Morning, Charles. Nothing wrong with having differing views on a subject, that's for sure.
I guess I'm probably a bit spoiled. In my part of the country, our IBS and NBRSA events are scheduled loosely around a 'short month' format, because of the distances involved. My 'home' range for registered IBS shooting is Webster City, Iowa...about 250 miles from my shack on the prairie. Council Bluffs, Iowa is the closest NBRSA range @ 220 miles away. Holmen, Wi.(IBS) is 260 and Kansas City 375 miles. My work schedule isn't firmed up yet, but I'll probably be able to shoot Webster City three times, Holmen once , Council Bluffs once or twice and Kansas City at least once.
The events are well attended, thanks to being spaced out a bit. I'd much rather shoot against 25-30 guys once every three weeks instead of the same 5-6 guys every weekend at a single yardage event, that's for sure. The way the IBS SOY points are set up, a person shooting a single yardage event each Saturday and Sunday can earn enough points to win Score Shooter of the Year and still be home to mow the yard by 2:00 in the afternoon. Out here, we're actually penalized for shooting 100-200 Grand Aggs when it comes to accumulating points. Weird but true....
Then, there's Van Dyne, Wi (NBRSA) for the annual Wi. State Hunter tournament, 475 miles from me. For whatever reason, the IBS Score Nationals is being held in Holton, Mi. on the very same weekend as Van Dyne. 50-60 of the best HBR shooters in the land will be competing on the other side of the lake from Holton (admittedly, Lake Michigan is a big lake). And they all shoot Varmint Class guns. And many of them attended the last IBS Score Nationals at Holton two years ago. This is the first time the Two Gun is being contested as a National Championship in the IBS, so a lot of shooters would like to go and support this by shooting at Holton. But as it stands, shooters now have to choose between Van Dyne and Holton. Both events will be less than they could have been.
This is the kind of stuff that makes a guy shake his head.
Excuse the slight drift off topic, but the question was: "Where have all the shooters gone?" To quote Pogo: "We've met the enemy...and he is us."
Good shootin'. -Al
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Incidentally
Some years back, I sent a postcard to 100 NBRSA ex-members asking why they did not renew their membership. Amazingly, about half returned an answer. Some of them were miffed about something that the NBRSA directors had done and some were miffed about something the NBRSA directors hadn't done. There were a couple of responses from widows and I wish I had those postcards back unsent. Most of them replied that they simply didn't have the cash to compete as they once did. Some of those that were miffed threw in a mention of the rising cost to compete.
Some years back, I sent a postcard to 100 NBRSA ex-members asking why they did not renew their membership. Amazingly, about half returned an answer. Some of them were miffed about something that the NBRSA directors had done and some were miffed about something the NBRSA directors hadn't done. There were a couple of responses from widows and I wish I had those postcards back unsent. Most of them replied that they simply didn't have the cash to compete as they once did. Some of those that were miffed threw in a mention of the rising cost to compete.
I found some of those responses
When I sent that postcard, I offered an online reponse form to make it easier to reply. 22 folks used the online form. I copied these 22 replies below with the names replaced by *******. I did not format the text so it's kinda jumbled but the key words remail prevalent.
_____________________________
Hello, I would like to say thanks for the post card from Wilbur and the NBRSA. First I would like to say that BR is a sport that I like that is second to nothing and enjoy it extremely.I have not recently renewed my membership lately for several reasons, but before I list my concerns I would like to first say that I plan to renew soon as I can get back on my feet and that this is not meant to demean the people or the NBRSA.
1, this has been a rough year financially and it isn't improving at the moment.
2, because of my religious beliefs I do not shoot on Sundays, but instead stay home with my family and attend church, which in itself is no problem. When I first started shooting BR I could shoot a complete Grand agg in LV on Saturday, and then go home and spend Sunday with my family.Life was good! Now the problem started when the ranges started shooting both 100 on Sat. and both 200 on Sun. Now I can't win a grand agg in anything unless I go to the Super Shoot or a National but that also is a struggle financially and with the wife:-]. As you can see my name doesn't even come up on the shooter of the year list in the Eastern region and on Match reports I am always on the bottom of the list no matter how well I placed. I don't want this to sound negative, I am just showing that in hard times I don't have much incentive to twist the wifes arm and explain how we have to cut back while I pack up to go to a shoot and then she later reads the match report and automatically goes to the last page to find out how well I did while she had to stay home with the kids! It does make my life difficult to say the least. I do realize the reasons that the ranges changed to the format that they have, and that most if not all are overworked and underpaid workers who get little support are doing it to make their lives a little more pleasant at a shoot. I do realize that there are things that I will just have to grin and bear:-]
3,While I am blabbering I would like to add that BR has changed over the years and I think that the sporter, lv and hv rifles are redundant as separate classes. With all the light weight components available to build a rifle the difference in these classes are so small it seems pointless in all practical meaning. Really there is Hunter, Varmint and Unlimited and I think if the NBRSA could stick to a format that had these classes it would grow again in interest and attendance.
To end this note which has gotten to long, I would like to say that once I am back on my financial feet I plan on returning, and have always enjoyed shooting BR with you folks and I still think that BR is the best sport going.
******************
In the last six years, I've averaged less than 1 NBRSA shoot per year. When the price went to $50, I said, "No more." If there is a NBRSA shoot I want to attend badly enough, I'll rejoin for that year...and, yes, the magazine is lousy.
I joined IBS six months after I joined NBRSA, I still belong and intend to continue. In seven years, I have shot in perhaps one IBS shoot. It must be the magazine.
I have never had a problem with any of the NBRSA people. I don't know any of the IBS people.
I forgot to renew, and just remembered last week. by now you should have my check, and I should be back on the rolls. I will always remember how nice ********* was to me at my first Shamrock shoot. He made my first time very easy, and I have been back every year ever since! ***********
The reason that I did not renew my membership is because I was not able to attend any matches this year. In a normal year I am only able to attend two ranges that have registered matches and one of those ranges quit having a registered match this year.
***************
Not an easy simple answer, but you asked. I will list several reasons and it's not in any order. I would guess it's a combination of all. I am an occasional competetor and the rising cost of bullets, primer, powder, fuel, etc is moving benchrest competition beyond my budget. I'm retired and other unexpected expenses (medical) take more than expected. I think the Benchrest community of guys is a really neat group of friends. They are helpful and supportive are I really enjoy being around them and Heaven knows I need all the help I can get. That said, I'm not a very accomplished shooter. Granted more pratice might help that, but there again the cost to pratice has also risen. Access to a good range is also a problem. It is an hour drive to a good practice range. I have in the corner of my mind (dusty corner) the idea that things will settle down and I will spend more time praticing and then feel that I can renew my membership and enter a couple of meets a year. Don't know if this helps but would guess that a lot of people won't respond so at least I am trying to help. Good Luck!
I think i paid for two years last year by mistake but idid not get a new membership card in may please check on this and let me know. The answer to your question is most people cannot afford it.The cost of shooting has risen dramatically. This being said time and money are short for most people and it takes both to be competitive.I guess after many years some shooters get tired of going to matches and losing.
Mr. ************ passed away on August 3, 2007
With everything costing more and the paycheck staying the same, it's hard to do any shooting in benchrest. When I started shooting about 6 years ago, entry fees was about $40.00, now for the same shoot it's about $80.00 !!
I live in southern Illinois, about 150 miles from The Benchrest Club of St.Louis. My first match I spent about $150.00 for gas, food, entry fees, and whatever else. The last time I shot there it was almost double, $300.00+ is a pretty pricy weekend, not including your shooting supplys.
Also, why can't NBRSA set up classes like the IBS in the hunter divison and have Varmint for score, more options this way for someone with a light or heavy varmint rifle to shoot, keep it a 1 day shoot, and a reasonable entry fee. Something to think about !!
And one last thing, if you are going to charge $50.00 membership fees, then give up something decent to read as far as a magizine. The last NBRSA news I saw was not much, sorry.
I hope you guys can turn the Association around and get it back on top again, I know you can't do anything as far as price of living, fuel and such, but maybe a little break in shooting fees can't hurt.
I would like to hear your thoughts on my thoughts, email me if you like;
*******************
The cost of membership, I felt that your newsletter was poor, I liked precision shooting, you dropped it. So I have spent my dollars with IBS, even though I don't attend any matches any more, we don't have any in south florida, hope to attend some, but the expense of travel is getting high, so it's hard to go to GA and Alabama from S fl.
So it's really the cost of belonging to two club's, IBS excepts NBRSA at there matches I believe, so you need to rethink your policies because there's comes with a great mag.
My wife passed away on 09/11/05, I have been trying to get my life back together every sense. I hope by spring of 2009 I will be able to re-join.
*************
Nothing against the NBRSA but I already belong to IBS and get "Precision Shooting" with my membership. That's a very good magazine to which I look forward every month. The NBRSA magazine just seemed like one more piece of paper I had to deal with each month.
Also, I did not really see benefit in belonging to both organizations. I have moved from benchrest to F-Class shooting so I guess my focus has changed a bit.
**************
I had to stop shooting because of the high cost. I figured the membership could also be saved. Sorry ***********
I have moved out of the country.
In my area (south central Montana) there aren't enough varmint class matches to keep my interest up, and being over the hill my eyesight isn't what it once was. Not shooting in matches, so dropped my membership.
Wilbur;
The decision to not renew was not something that was easy. ********, my son, and I enjoy the sport and the challenges getting the smallest group. I had four BR rifles and setups. I even purchased a reloading trailer to drag to the SE regional matches. I HAD a lot of committment.
The problems arose from the amount of time that each match was requiring to truely shoot. When matches take 4 days, plus 1 day down, another day back, plus 1 day prior to the match to setup and practice, I am looking at 6-7 days away from the office. The distance to some of the matches does require a long day's drive. Luckily, with Charlotte, Rockingham and Roanoke relitively close it cut the travel time was reduced. However, 4 days at the regionals was a lot.
So, first I found the 4 day matches too much to try to make. Someone that is retired, this is not a problem, but someone that is working a regular job or going to school (like my son), it is a killer. If you do not go to the big matches, then you do not have a chance at the regional trophies. I do think they are a wonderful incentive.
Next, the cost was climing up and it was becoming too much, especially when you multiplied it by 2. I am not much on camping, so add a hotel or extra drive times.
I know that juggling the schedule is a real problem, getting ranges to take the job is tuff. I admire you for your determination. The sport needs more people like you, but it will not survive if you do not attract a younger set of shooters (like me).
When I left NBRSA, I started IPSC pistol shooting. It is attractive to me because, I can attend a match in one day and return home. There are many small matches through out the area. There are 10 ranges within 150 miles and could shoot every weekend, if I wanted. I usually shoot 2 per month, 12 months a year.
There are large matches both in NC and the region. They may run over a three day period, but as a shooter, I only have to attend for 1 day. This helps in keeping the motel costs down.
To be attractive to me, benchrest needs to follow a simular type of schedule. Roy Darnell had a wonderful idea with his winter matches. Same day each month, 1 day match, give prize for best shooter over the match. Roanoke's egg shoot was fun. Maybe not the best format for NBRSA, but the fun could come at the end or the beginning.
While not a big part of my reason for not renewing, but a factor was equipment costs. Competing with so-so BR equipment will only get you so far. Most shooters feel the need to get the latest and greatest "stuff", so that they have a chance to win. Barrels, actions, cases... the list goes on and on. I know that NBRSA does not have any influence on those feelings nor the costs. But it gives the sport a barrier to most younger shooters that are looking for a place to go and shoot. A new shooter can get into IPSC for a few hundred dollars for the holster and magazines and a production class pistol. Even a used BR outfit with a shotout barrel will run you $1500 and then you have to get the other stuff to reload. The hunter class may be an option here to help with the costs, but they will in no way compete with a true BR rig.
Wilbur, the shooting community sees BR as the rich retiree sport, that is for people with lots of time and money and no commitments. While there are a lot of folks that do not fit that, there are many that do.
***** and I do not fit that stereo type.
I hope that my honesty helps. Please know that I am not wanting to offend you or anyone, nor to demeen the sport. I do enjoy BR and I still have one 6PPC outfit, just incase.
*********************
My name is *********** and I live in Santa Maria, Ca. I did not renew at the present time as until Los Angeles opens up, I will not be shooting again. I am not a die-hard benchrest shooter but a recreational shooter. I could travel to Visalia but have chosen not to as it is a dangerous road and a 3 hour drive. I shot at SG for several years before it was shut down and enjoyed the members. That was also a 3 hour drive so I only went 3 or 4 times a year. I plan on renewing again and probably should have to support the organization but I haven't shot a benchrest gun in almost 2 years now waiting for a new range. It costs me about $250 every time I go to a shoot and I can compete against myself at the local range for probably $25. Count me in again in 2009 when we start blasting away again in LA.
*********** My age and physical disability has determined that I can no longer participate in shooting.
*************************
I did not renew my son's membership since he is attending the USAF Academy and will not be able to shoot for the next few years. I hope he is able to rejoin later and continue benchrest shooting. The membership was for ******************
Thanks - L************
I only shoot 1000 yard matches and the Minnesota and Iowa clubs are both IBS affiliated. When the NBRSA 1000 yard match is held in Colorada I may join again.
If the NBRSA newsletter was upgraded to the quality of "Precision Shooting" I would join even if I did not shoot in NBRSA matches.
***********************
Glad you asked.
My vision is not as good as it used to be and not much prospects of it getting better. Its hard to be even a little competitive if you can't see well. Also my wife has had some health problems that has kept us away from the major meets.
Its also hard to keep up with the changing technology when on a fixed income.
Because it is getting more expensive it makes getting younger people into the sport (I'm 78 next week).
Perhaps I will come back.
******************
I thought I was an active member. How to confirm?*************
When I sent that postcard, I offered an online reponse form to make it easier to reply. 22 folks used the online form. I copied these 22 replies below with the names replaced by *******. I did not format the text so it's kinda jumbled but the key words remail prevalent.
_____________________________
Hello, I would like to say thanks for the post card from Wilbur and the NBRSA. First I would like to say that BR is a sport that I like that is second to nothing and enjoy it extremely.I have not recently renewed my membership lately for several reasons, but before I list my concerns I would like to first say that I plan to renew soon as I can get back on my feet and that this is not meant to demean the people or the NBRSA.
1, this has been a rough year financially and it isn't improving at the moment.
2, because of my religious beliefs I do not shoot on Sundays, but instead stay home with my family and attend church, which in itself is no problem. When I first started shooting BR I could shoot a complete Grand agg in LV on Saturday, and then go home and spend Sunday with my family.Life was good! Now the problem started when the ranges started shooting both 100 on Sat. and both 200 on Sun. Now I can't win a grand agg in anything unless I go to the Super Shoot or a National but that also is a struggle financially and with the wife:-]. As you can see my name doesn't even come up on the shooter of the year list in the Eastern region and on Match reports I am always on the bottom of the list no matter how well I placed. I don't want this to sound negative, I am just showing that in hard times I don't have much incentive to twist the wifes arm and explain how we have to cut back while I pack up to go to a shoot and then she later reads the match report and automatically goes to the last page to find out how well I did while she had to stay home with the kids! It does make my life difficult to say the least. I do realize the reasons that the ranges changed to the format that they have, and that most if not all are overworked and underpaid workers who get little support are doing it to make their lives a little more pleasant at a shoot. I do realize that there are things that I will just have to grin and bear:-]
3,While I am blabbering I would like to add that BR has changed over the years and I think that the sporter, lv and hv rifles are redundant as separate classes. With all the light weight components available to build a rifle the difference in these classes are so small it seems pointless in all practical meaning. Really there is Hunter, Varmint and Unlimited and I think if the NBRSA could stick to a format that had these classes it would grow again in interest and attendance.
To end this note which has gotten to long, I would like to say that once I am back on my financial feet I plan on returning, and have always enjoyed shooting BR with you folks and I still think that BR is the best sport going.
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In the last six years, I've averaged less than 1 NBRSA shoot per year. When the price went to $50, I said, "No more." If there is a NBRSA shoot I want to attend badly enough, I'll rejoin for that year...and, yes, the magazine is lousy.
I joined IBS six months after I joined NBRSA, I still belong and intend to continue. In seven years, I have shot in perhaps one IBS shoot. It must be the magazine.
I have never had a problem with any of the NBRSA people. I don't know any of the IBS people.
I forgot to renew, and just remembered last week. by now you should have my check, and I should be back on the rolls. I will always remember how nice ********* was to me at my first Shamrock shoot. He made my first time very easy, and I have been back every year ever since! ***********
The reason that I did not renew my membership is because I was not able to attend any matches this year. In a normal year I am only able to attend two ranges that have registered matches and one of those ranges quit having a registered match this year.
***************
Not an easy simple answer, but you asked. I will list several reasons and it's not in any order. I would guess it's a combination of all. I am an occasional competetor and the rising cost of bullets, primer, powder, fuel, etc is moving benchrest competition beyond my budget. I'm retired and other unexpected expenses (medical) take more than expected. I think the Benchrest community of guys is a really neat group of friends. They are helpful and supportive are I really enjoy being around them and Heaven knows I need all the help I can get. That said, I'm not a very accomplished shooter. Granted more pratice might help that, but there again the cost to pratice has also risen. Access to a good range is also a problem. It is an hour drive to a good practice range. I have in the corner of my mind (dusty corner) the idea that things will settle down and I will spend more time praticing and then feel that I can renew my membership and enter a couple of meets a year. Don't know if this helps but would guess that a lot of people won't respond so at least I am trying to help. Good Luck!
I think i paid for two years last year by mistake but idid not get a new membership card in may please check on this and let me know. The answer to your question is most people cannot afford it.The cost of shooting has risen dramatically. This being said time and money are short for most people and it takes both to be competitive.I guess after many years some shooters get tired of going to matches and losing.
Mr. ************ passed away on August 3, 2007
With everything costing more and the paycheck staying the same, it's hard to do any shooting in benchrest. When I started shooting about 6 years ago, entry fees was about $40.00, now for the same shoot it's about $80.00 !!
I live in southern Illinois, about 150 miles from The Benchrest Club of St.Louis. My first match I spent about $150.00 for gas, food, entry fees, and whatever else. The last time I shot there it was almost double, $300.00+ is a pretty pricy weekend, not including your shooting supplys.
Also, why can't NBRSA set up classes like the IBS in the hunter divison and have Varmint for score, more options this way for someone with a light or heavy varmint rifle to shoot, keep it a 1 day shoot, and a reasonable entry fee. Something to think about !!
And one last thing, if you are going to charge $50.00 membership fees, then give up something decent to read as far as a magizine. The last NBRSA news I saw was not much, sorry.
I hope you guys can turn the Association around and get it back on top again, I know you can't do anything as far as price of living, fuel and such, but maybe a little break in shooting fees can't hurt.
I would like to hear your thoughts on my thoughts, email me if you like;
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The cost of membership, I felt that your newsletter was poor, I liked precision shooting, you dropped it. So I have spent my dollars with IBS, even though I don't attend any matches any more, we don't have any in south florida, hope to attend some, but the expense of travel is getting high, so it's hard to go to GA and Alabama from S fl.
So it's really the cost of belonging to two club's, IBS excepts NBRSA at there matches I believe, so you need to rethink your policies because there's comes with a great mag.
My wife passed away on 09/11/05, I have been trying to get my life back together every sense. I hope by spring of 2009 I will be able to re-join.
*************
Nothing against the NBRSA but I already belong to IBS and get "Precision Shooting" with my membership. That's a very good magazine to which I look forward every month. The NBRSA magazine just seemed like one more piece of paper I had to deal with each month.
Also, I did not really see benefit in belonging to both organizations. I have moved from benchrest to F-Class shooting so I guess my focus has changed a bit.
**************
I had to stop shooting because of the high cost. I figured the membership could also be saved. Sorry ***********
I have moved out of the country.
In my area (south central Montana) there aren't enough varmint class matches to keep my interest up, and being over the hill my eyesight isn't what it once was. Not shooting in matches, so dropped my membership.
Wilbur;
The decision to not renew was not something that was easy. ********, my son, and I enjoy the sport and the challenges getting the smallest group. I had four BR rifles and setups. I even purchased a reloading trailer to drag to the SE regional matches. I HAD a lot of committment.
The problems arose from the amount of time that each match was requiring to truely shoot. When matches take 4 days, plus 1 day down, another day back, plus 1 day prior to the match to setup and practice, I am looking at 6-7 days away from the office. The distance to some of the matches does require a long day's drive. Luckily, with Charlotte, Rockingham and Roanoke relitively close it cut the travel time was reduced. However, 4 days at the regionals was a lot.
So, first I found the 4 day matches too much to try to make. Someone that is retired, this is not a problem, but someone that is working a regular job or going to school (like my son), it is a killer. If you do not go to the big matches, then you do not have a chance at the regional trophies. I do think they are a wonderful incentive.
Next, the cost was climing up and it was becoming too much, especially when you multiplied it by 2. I am not much on camping, so add a hotel or extra drive times.
I know that juggling the schedule is a real problem, getting ranges to take the job is tuff. I admire you for your determination. The sport needs more people like you, but it will not survive if you do not attract a younger set of shooters (like me).
When I left NBRSA, I started IPSC pistol shooting. It is attractive to me because, I can attend a match in one day and return home. There are many small matches through out the area. There are 10 ranges within 150 miles and could shoot every weekend, if I wanted. I usually shoot 2 per month, 12 months a year.
There are large matches both in NC and the region. They may run over a three day period, but as a shooter, I only have to attend for 1 day. This helps in keeping the motel costs down.
To be attractive to me, benchrest needs to follow a simular type of schedule. Roy Darnell had a wonderful idea with his winter matches. Same day each month, 1 day match, give prize for best shooter over the match. Roanoke's egg shoot was fun. Maybe not the best format for NBRSA, but the fun could come at the end or the beginning.
While not a big part of my reason for not renewing, but a factor was equipment costs. Competing with so-so BR equipment will only get you so far. Most shooters feel the need to get the latest and greatest "stuff", so that they have a chance to win. Barrels, actions, cases... the list goes on and on. I know that NBRSA does not have any influence on those feelings nor the costs. But it gives the sport a barrier to most younger shooters that are looking for a place to go and shoot. A new shooter can get into IPSC for a few hundred dollars for the holster and magazines and a production class pistol. Even a used BR outfit with a shotout barrel will run you $1500 and then you have to get the other stuff to reload. The hunter class may be an option here to help with the costs, but they will in no way compete with a true BR rig.
Wilbur, the shooting community sees BR as the rich retiree sport, that is for people with lots of time and money and no commitments. While there are a lot of folks that do not fit that, there are many that do.
***** and I do not fit that stereo type.
I hope that my honesty helps. Please know that I am not wanting to offend you or anyone, nor to demeen the sport. I do enjoy BR and I still have one 6PPC outfit, just incase.
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My name is *********** and I live in Santa Maria, Ca. I did not renew at the present time as until Los Angeles opens up, I will not be shooting again. I am not a die-hard benchrest shooter but a recreational shooter. I could travel to Visalia but have chosen not to as it is a dangerous road and a 3 hour drive. I shot at SG for several years before it was shut down and enjoyed the members. That was also a 3 hour drive so I only went 3 or 4 times a year. I plan on renewing again and probably should have to support the organization but I haven't shot a benchrest gun in almost 2 years now waiting for a new range. It costs me about $250 every time I go to a shoot and I can compete against myself at the local range for probably $25. Count me in again in 2009 when we start blasting away again in LA.
*********** My age and physical disability has determined that I can no longer participate in shooting.
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I did not renew my son's membership since he is attending the USAF Academy and will not be able to shoot for the next few years. I hope he is able to rejoin later and continue benchrest shooting. The membership was for ******************
Thanks - L************
I only shoot 1000 yard matches and the Minnesota and Iowa clubs are both IBS affiliated. When the NBRSA 1000 yard match is held in Colorada I may join again.
If the NBRSA newsletter was upgraded to the quality of "Precision Shooting" I would join even if I did not shoot in NBRSA matches.
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Glad you asked.
My vision is not as good as it used to be and not much prospects of it getting better. Its hard to be even a little competitive if you can't see well. Also my wife has had some health problems that has kept us away from the major meets.
Its also hard to keep up with the changing technology when on a fixed income.
Because it is getting more expensive it makes getting younger people into the sport (I'm 78 next week).
Perhaps I will come back.
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I thought I was an active member. How to confirm?*************
No they echo what the current crowd is saying.The tactical matches out here are full of young shooters.Did I mention Full?
There guns cost more than a 6PPC.Did I mention there equipment costs more?
They travel to all the same clubs.Did I mention there expenses were the same?
The benchrest crowd keeps yelling money,age and time but they don't get the FACT that the young shooters are spending more money and time.
In a NutShell You guys will never get it.
Wilbur
Sorry that my posting on this thread made you read it.Notice that I didn't point out the obvious.
Lynn
Lots of talk about the costs, and I doubt there is much anyone can do about that.
The one thing I think I can piece together from all this is NBRSA, anyway, would be better off if there were more regions. Not sure how far it really is for the ranges in my region (Southeastern), but as I live near one edge, it can approach 700 miles, one way, to shoot some of the matches. Back when I shot NBRSA, I started each season knowing I could not make all the all the matches in my region. That has an affect on one's thinking. (It is rumored that Smiley Hensley's wife once muttered "There has got to be more to life than driving up & down Interstate 77.")
I realize that more, smaller regions, would increase the work needed to coordinate things in the NBRSA, esp scheduling.
IBS has a different problem, I suppose. It started as a regional sanctioning body, and hasn't quite figured out (at least, from all the complaining) the logistical problems of a national organization.
As far as the general public goes. Do we really want all that more members? All the bitching about Me & mine!! Me & mine!! Me & mine!! Larger groups just seem to generate those problems. Well, it is a compromise.
But if we do want more BR shooters, the future's probably with score. The general shooting public understands that. Look at how the IBS has gown. (And look at how few group matches they now hold.) Better, if someone could figure out how to shoot for group & score at the same time, as in long-range BR. That by itself would give point-blank benchrest a significant boost, I think. At the minimum, it is two chances to win. Just generally, it gives people something they instinctively understand, to get them to try more than just one or two matches.
The one thing I think I can piece together from all this is NBRSA, anyway, would be better off if there were more regions. Not sure how far it really is for the ranges in my region (Southeastern), but as I live near one edge, it can approach 700 miles, one way, to shoot some of the matches. Back when I shot NBRSA, I started each season knowing I could not make all the all the matches in my region. That has an affect on one's thinking. (It is rumored that Smiley Hensley's wife once muttered "There has got to be more to life than driving up & down Interstate 77.")
I realize that more, smaller regions, would increase the work needed to coordinate things in the NBRSA, esp scheduling.
IBS has a different problem, I suppose. It started as a regional sanctioning body, and hasn't quite figured out (at least, from all the complaining) the logistical problems of a national organization.
As far as the general public goes. Do we really want all that more members? All the bitching about Me & mine!! Me & mine!! Me & mine!! Larger groups just seem to generate those problems. Well, it is a compromise.
But if we do want more BR shooters, the future's probably with score. The general shooting public understands that. Look at how the IBS has gown. (And look at how few group matches they now hold.) Better, if someone could figure out how to shoot for group & score at the same time, as in long-range BR. That by itself would give point-blank benchrest a significant boost, I think. At the minimum, it is two chances to win. Just generally, it gives people something they instinctively understand, to get them to try more than just one or two matches.
If that's true, then I don't want "it." And no, that's not sour grapes.
That the folks you mention are "wearin' it out" shooting tactical matches is not applicable. If we wanted to shoot tactical matches we would join in. The question on the table is related to benchrest shooting and benchrest matches. What is it that we don't get?
Wilbur
The young guys spending all the money on the tactical guns are shooting on range 11 while we are shooting on range 12.We draw in 4-6 shooters after the 2010 debacle and they turn shooters away at each event.
They are shooting Borden actions Bartlein barrels and U.S. Optics scopes.Last I heard they had $55,000 worth of prizes on the prize table.
They don't advertise and have a 3 year waiting list to join as they are full of shooters willing and able to spend the money and they have plenty of time.
Look to the leadership and you will see the problems !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lynn
P.S. In case you forgot I wrote all the stories for Sacramento here and in the nbrsa newsletter and got all of the prizes before complaining about the way a match was held.
Have you seen a single longrange match report from sacramento here are in the nbrsa newsletter in two years? they have held 20 plus matches in that time frame.If the biggest dogs are not at the match you won't hear or see squat.
Edit:
If you were a range owner would you hold a 600/1000 yard range hostage with 4-6 shooters while turning away 50 tactical shooters?
The young guys spending all the money on the tactical guns are shooting on range 11 while we are shooting on range 12.We draw in 4-6 shooters after the 2010 debacle and they turn shooters away at each event.
They are shooting Borden actions Bartlein barrels and U.S. Optics scopes.Last I heard they had $55,000 worth of prizes on the prize table.
They don't advertise and have a 3 year waiting list to join as they are full of shooters willing and able to spend the money and they have plenty of time.
Look to the leadership and you will see the problems !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lynn
P.S. In case you forgot I wrote all the stories for Sacramento here and in the nbrsa newsletter and got all of the prizes before complaining about the way a match was held.
Have you seen a single longrange match report from sacramento here are in the nbrsa newsletter in two years? they have held 20 plus matches in that time frame.If the biggest dogs are not at the match you won't hear or see squat.
Edit:
If you were a range owner would you hold a 600/1000 yard range hostage with 4-6 shooters while turning away 50 tactical shooters?
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jackie schmidt
New member
So, what the "younger crowd" wants is a type of shooting that offers the satisfaction, in simulation, of actually killing another human being. Much like the violent video games they play. I wonder how many have actually been in harms way?
Since Benchrest is about as far removed from that as any shooting sport could be, I suppose we are doomed.
Maybe we heed to place the standard Benchrest Target in the middle of a Human Silhouette.
Since Benchrest is about as far removed from that as any shooting sport could be, I suppose we are doomed.
Maybe we heed to place the standard Benchrest Target in the middle of a Human Silhouette.
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
I think that line of thinking is more the problem than the answer, and can only serve to further alienate them from our game. I can only suggest an open mind to accepting them if we are so fortunate as to have them show interest in shooting BR. --Mike