why not the .222 anymore?

Steve

Back in thelate '90's, I put a big effort into the 25 caliber. The main reason was Jeff Fowler was making 85 grn 25 caliber bullets that would rival any bullet on the Planet.

I used a 6 BR case necked up to 25, .272 neck, 1-13 twist, and enough N130 to push it 3250.

I had a fair amount of success, even won a couple of yardages at Regional Matches.

But in the end, I succumned to the obvious. That being, "what was the point". It would not shoot any better than a 6PPC, there was, in truth, only one true Benchrest Bullet available, and not once did they give any "style points" for being different.:D So, I decided to just go all the way with a 6PPC.

Regardless of what many say, Benchrest Shooters are not a bunch of "Monkey see-Monkey do" zombies who will drink the coolaid of the moment. The vast majority shoot a 6PPC because it is the easiest thing to win with. More than one good shooter has tried to make a 6BR compete with a 6PPC, but the truth is, the capacity is a tad too much. Push the shoulder back, make it, in affect, a 6PPC, and it shoots about the same, with a lot more hassle.

I do not know this for a fact, but veteran shooters who were around in the late '70's say that for a while, a few very well known Gunsmiths refused to chamber Rifles in that new fangled "commie round". It was just un-American to shoot Benchrest with a case that had "Russian" stamped on the head.

Most of the people who complain about the 6PPC dominance, and call Benchrest Shooters a bunch of lemmings, either do not shoot Benchrest, or don't care much about being competitive. Or, they just want to be different. Well, as I said before, they don't give "style points", and they don't score on a curve.

Build a 6PPC..........jackie
 
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why not the 222 anymore

If all your worried about is Bc then i can think of many more calibers.
that have higher bCs
Your just stuck on the ppc.
If you could take the recoil i bet the 308 would give you a run for your money.
Look at the BC S of those bullets. How about a 6 br with heavy Bullets?
I'll say it again the 222 is a GREAT learning tool.
No one has played with it in a long time. How about blowing the shoulder forward like the 220 russian to make the ppc. mill the pocket , turn the brass, champher the primer holes inside, check each one with a 1/10000
mike change the twist etc. Now we have a differant case 222/45 ackley.
Thats how the ppc was made only, not quite and ackley.
We also use to shoot at around 55,000 ps with the duce with a hot load.
Your shooting the PPC at about 65,000 psi.
Lets compare apples with grapes.
The 222 was a standard factory chambering also.
The only standard factory rife that i can remember of with the ppc was a sako.
That i belive used USA cases.
 
You Guys Are Missing One Major Point

There are just a few chamberings that will inherantly produce groups small enough to be competitive in 100-200 yard Benchrest.
6PPC
22PPC Short
30PPC
30BR.
222 Rem.
25BR, (MAYBE)

More than one good shooter has spent a lot of time and effort trying to make a 223, 22 PPC, 22BR, or a 6BR competitive at Region Level Competition. The truth is, they are enough off in that magic "powder to bullet diameter", or what ever makes cartridges inherantly accurate, that too much is left on the table. You can beat your head against the wall trying to make something work, but if it "hasn't got it", you are just in for a frustrating time.

Most experienced BR shooters have already "been there and done that" with a lot of what we are talking about. We all understand that first and foremost, a chambering has to have that magic "sub .200" agging capability to be competitive in todays Benchrest. All of the "BC" in the world will not help win anything if it is aready at .300 agg the instant the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Sometimes it is frustrating when trying to give advice to novice shooters who want to get into "serious Benchrest". These novice shooters are usually ignorant of just what a real Benchrest Rifle will do. They think that the 6BR is a viable Benchrest Chambering because it has BR stamped on the head. They think a 40x and Savage are Benchrest Rifles because because the manufacturer says so. They think that Sierra makes Benchrest Bullets because they have "Matchking" on the box.

Shooters log onto this site to get the truth about what it takes to be competitive in Benchrest. Advising them to spend their hard earned money on an obselete or never will be concept is irresponsible of us, and a disservice to them........jackie
 
Aussie steve said:
Well that settles that then I am looking to get into benchrest shooting and was thinking of doing a .222 to start off with, but going all the way with it. Looks like I'd just be better off with a 6mm PPC.

Pitty

Steve
Click to expand...

well i think you would learn more with a 222. now not necessarily win more, but learn more. you would not be a lemming and would have to make decisions based on your rifle, not just follow the crowd. i think that after a while when you moved up to a 6ppc you would settle in quicker, and have the advantage of thinking vs following.

ducking

mike in co
 
Listen to those who actually compete....get a 6ppc and learn.....then....if you want to test the waters....do so.

If you show up at a match with a 222 and ask for advice...their going to tell you....6PPC.

Hovis
 
HovisKM said:
Listen to those who actually compete....get a 6ppc and learn.....then....if you want to test the waters....do so.

If you show up at a match with a 222 and ask for advice...their going to tell you....6PPC.

Hovis
Click to expand...
hovis,
i do not disagree with the fact that 6pp is THE 100/200 yd br chambering.
my comment was that with everyone shooting 6, that at a match with 25 participants, he is likely to get a dozen differents answers to any given question. he would not "learn" much, he would be copying the pack. with his own 222, he will learn to solve issues, not copy.
i do own a 6ppc and i do compete
and yes 222 is on my short list of rifles to build....cause some of my matches are 100 yds only.

mike in co
 
Mike......what the heck is he going to learn with a 222...other than he made a mistake after wasting a lot of money and time??

Hovis
 
HovisKM said:
Mike......what the heck is he going to learn with a 222...other than he made a mistake after wasting a lot of money and time??

Hovis
Click to expand...

he will learn how to tune a load...intead of being a lemming.

he will learn to read the wind....cause he has to as the 222 is at a disadvantage.


learning instead of following means when he does go to a 6 he will be ahead of the curve...he will understand why things happen instead of just following the herd.

and why is it a mistake to build the rifle he wants to build ? he has to learn somewhere and having the rifle he wants aint all that bad. when he is at the point that he has everything out of the 222 he can decide then if he wants to stay in the game and move to a 6.

mike in co
 
why not the 222 anymore

Simple WIND DRIFT'
accuracy handloading.
bag control, bench position. etc
all of the same thing you need to learn shooting a ppc.
Actually it's a lot harder
 
Aussie steve said:
I have been reading here abit about guys who have "classic" or old school bench guns often in .222, and I also know that sometime ago the little .222 was king of the accuracy crowd. I have searched but i cant find why the .222 lost favour to the PPC's.

I wonder if I could have a .222 built with todays methods and components that would run with the PPC's? Or are they just so far infront tha no matter what the .222 just is not able to compete? If the PPC's are so far ahead does anybody know why?

Cheers

Steve
Click to expand...

its called bc...the six wins in the wind everytime.
if you want to build a 222 do so and have fun..
if your desire is to compete and not to be an also ran...go with a 6 and do not look back.
if you want to have some fun, not be a lemming and do some learning along the way, build a 222....

if you only compete at 100..the 222 is not so bad....

is this for formal 100/200 registered matches or club level matches ?

for fun ?

tell us more.

mike in co
 
why not the 222 anymore

After you have learned how to shoot a duce your ready for the 6 or larger. You have past the learning curve with out getting the Shikz beat out of you.
Now if you have built on a good platform you can either open up the bolt face or change bolts and barrels If you buy a bolt for the action you have a duel purpose bench rig. You can always switch back to the duce to teach a new shooter.
You can always switch back just to kick some tail at a local shoot too.

Just for the heck of it i looked into my rifle room . Here's what i saw 6 ppcs 3 222,s 2 6/47 improved that shoot just like ppcs 3 308.s 1 is a bench rest 14 twist and a rack full of 22rfs. also my hunting rigs. a 6mm dasher for long range '
And there's more' Guess i just have a few too many.
Still i'll never get rid of my 222,s
 
Thanks guys for all the replies, I have learnt alot from the comments made here.

Basicaly I have a few very accurate varmint rifles built on trued rem 700 actions with match grade SS barrels. They shoot quiet well for what they are, and I have developed a liking for seeing just how accurate I can get them to be, and this is where I have started toying with the idear of taking up benchrest shooting.

I originaly thought of having a rem 700 built in .222 but going all the way, getting the action trued, sleeved, jewl trigger etc, and generaly working it over. I was only looking to do club matches at the start and figured the rem 700 or XP would do fine. I then had a thought that if I was going to spend up and do all this, I might aswell spend a few extra $$ and have a rifle that is capable of winning anywhere if driven right.

So I still only want to do club matches at first, but who knows if I like it and do OK.....I admit I have a soft spot for the .222 and would like to use it if it, if I have a chance of being compeditive but if 6mm PPC is where its at, then thats what has to be

Thanks again

Steve
 
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Steve,

Your thinking is on the right track. You have custom rifle and reloading experience and your ready to take the next step. A .222 is very fun but in reality a waste of time in BR. And as far as all of us dumb BR shooters that follow the herd.....that's rediculous. Heck, I have a competitive 222 rem, I also have a 22ppc-.100 that I shoot quite often in competition (even had a world record going with it a couple of times this year with it until "I" blew it). But to start out...6PPC and after a couple of years, try out whatever you want.

Hovis
 
Is it true that the 222 Remington officially holds the smallest BR 100 yard group record? Somewhere in the 0.015 inch range?
 
Aceball

Yes, that is true, it is an .009. Shot long time ago.

But, that has absolutly nothing to do with Benchrest in 2009.........jackie
 
.222 in BR

Everytime the subject of the .222 in BR comes up some feelings get hurt and reality sets in. Many remember the days when they shot a small group or won an agg at their local Range eoth their .222. Good memories. I don't like car analogies but most BR guys remember when offenhauser engines dominated Indy cars and some remember Andy Grannetelli's STP car but those cars and engines are in museums. Time passes by. The .222 in it's day the 50-80's was a star but the PPC retired it as it retired it's cousin the 6x47.

I like most shooters in the 70's shot both the .222 and 6x47 even when I was a rookie back then I could see that those .3 groups had room to be filled in. I did not know what was around the corner but when the custom action makers retooled for PPC bolt faces the change was on. In the 90's .2 aggs at 100 and 200 were the name of the game, the PPC game. Very rarely did the .22 or 6x47 challenge these aggs.
I like most have a soft spot for the deuce I still have a BR barrel and all the loading gear but never make it to a registered Shoot with one.

Dennis Thornberry pulled out Helen Thornberry's .222 HV that used to be one of Pat McMillan's and won a HV Grand Agg at the SW Regional this year. Dennis has allot of experience with the deuce from days past.

So the deuce has some life left in it. If you have one cherish it dust it off and shoot some with it. But if you are new with the 6 PPC being the industry standard you might be foolish making the .222 the platform for your BR experience.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
What Ever Makes You Smile

OK, then, if you want to play with the big boys these days, you need a 6PPC. But then if you are only competing with yourself, then there are a lot of options.

As a disabled shooter with 6 months of bench experience, my left handed Savage 93R17 is teaching me a lot about trigger control, breath control, reading the wind, etc. and at a really cheap price. Shooting my Ruger No. 1 220 Swift beyond 200 yards is teaching me even more about reading the wind and load development. My 60 year old Martini 22 with its era appropriate Unertl 10X scope gets stares every time I pull it out of it's case. Due to it's W.A. Sukalle barrel, it shoots surprisingly well and shocks the locals. I am shooting about 250 rounds a week, between the three. Every time I shoot, my groups get smaller for each rifle.

For me that's what it is all about. Having fun, learning new skills, getting better as I learn.

Now, just suppose you get good enough with your 222 to ocassionally humble the 6PPC shooters you face. Wouldn't that be more satisfying than beating them with the latest and the greatest. Having the best rifle doesn't mean you are the best shooter, does it?
 
Bless Your Soul Mike But You're Not a Benchrest Shooter

Mike in Colorado
You are a benchrest shooter with a small 'b'. Benchrest Shooters in the USA are either NBRSA or IBS you claim neither affiliation. Group shooting on the club level especially with no moving backers are fun shoots and that's it to many in this crowd.

Why not step up to the NBRSA/IBS level next year and prove some of your claims on a National level, might suprise yourself. Mid Continent is not a bad place to shoot. And Raton and Albequerque are a days drive. Mike you talk non-sense about BR but I think we could straighten you out if you let us.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
I have shot with the Northern Colorado BR shooters and that range turns in some good aggs. The winds can get pretty high but they seem fairly consistent. That is were I shot my first match.
Every body there was very nice to me.
Ted
 
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