why not the .222 anymore?

A

Aussie steve

New member
I have been reading here abit about guys who have "classic" or old school bench guns often in .222, and I also know that sometime ago the little .222 was king of the accuracy crowd. I have searched but i cant find why the .222 lost favour to the PPC's.

I wonder if I could have a .222 built with todays methods and components that would run with the PPC's? Or are they just so far infront tha no matter what the .222 just is not able to compete? If the PPC's are so far ahead does anybody know why?

Cheers

Steve
 
The .222 is still a great round. But I equate it to an old computer. The old computer did what it did really well, it was probably the best game in town when you bought it. Now there are simply better computers, faster, more versatile, quite simply more time and thought have gone into them.
Same thing with the .222 It does what it was intended to when it was the only game in town (or simply less players in the game) it was king. There are so many ways to go and so much science and research done you can make almost anything shoot well now.
 
I think that a good duce may not have any disadvantage at 100 but have a slight disadvantage at 200, due to the BCs of typical 52 gr. bullets, and velocity.
 
Simple. The 222 is a 22. 22 calibers cannot compete in our sporter division, which requires at least 6mm. With one 6mm sporter rifle, a person can compete in LV, Sporter, HV and Unlimited. In effect, when the current sporter caliber rules were adopted, all 22 calibers became obsolete. Some folks still shoot a 22 caliber, in LV and HV, but it is fairly rare. Everything revolves around sporter.
 
Bob

Shooters don't build or buy a 6mm rifle so they can shoot in Sporter matches. I'll bet you I can go an entire season without a sporter rifle and still be able to shoot more tournaments than my wallet will allow. Benchrest shooters (and most shooters in general) are like sheep - they will follow the leader. You can bet that if (when) guys start winning matches with a 25 caliber or a 20 caliber it will be only a short time before everybody is doing the same.

JMHO

Ray
 
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Aussie steve said:
I have been reading here abit about guys who have "classic" or old school bench guns often in .222, and I also know that sometime ago the little .222 was king of the accuracy crowd. I have searched but i cant find why the .222 lost favour to the PPC's.
Click to expand...

Steve
I was told by a longtime very experienced BR shooter back in 1983 that in perfect conditions the .222 is probably the most accurate chambering in existence but it lost out to the PPC because on the average day under average conditions the PPC handled the conditions better. I still believe that is the case .222 just does not buck the wind as well.
Dick
 
dick

I don't think there's enough difference in the BC of a 22 and a 6mm to make one "buck the wind" any better than the other.

I think the real advantage in the 6 PPC is that you can take the case, fill it to the base of the bullet with any appropriate powder and it will shoot better than most of us can. Cartridges like the 222, 6x47, etc,, require a lot of load development. The 22 Waldog is a lot like the 6 PPC in that regard and is probably a better Benchrest cartridge, but making brass is a real PITA.

JMHO

Ray
 
why not the 222 anymore

I agree with dick"
The 222 on a day with light winds will shoot just as well if not better then a 6ppc.
Over the years i have seen many groups that you could only wish for today , shot with the duce, Several of the people in the hall of fame know it for a fact and many many
matches we won with the duce.
It just poops out a bit at 200 yds.
 
Cheechako said:
Bob

Shooters don't build or buy a 6mm rifle so they can shoot in Sporter matches. I'll bet you I can go an entire season without a sporter rifle and still be able to shoot more tournaments than my wallet will allow. Benchrest shooters (and most shooters in general) are like sheep - they will follow the leader. You can bet that if (when) guys start winning matches with a 25 caliber or a 20 caliber it will be only a short time before everybody is doing the same.

JMHO

Ray
Click to expand...

Maybe where you live. Here, the only BR tournament within 200+ miles is a LV/Sporter. Always has been and always will. So if you want to shoot a 22 you are only going to shoot half a day on two days. I think sporter also counts toward HOF points, and that is important to many shooters.
 
Ray,
At the time that I was specifying my one and only Benchrest rifle, what should I have ordered instead of a 6PPC?
 
Bob

I'm looking at an old 2009 Tournament Schedule for the G.C. region and I see only 3 tournaments for LV/SP. Two of the three were at New Braunfels so I guess you guys really are restricted. You might try travelling a little. The remainder of the G.C. Region is mostly LV/HV and in the M.C. Region I see Zero, zip, nada SP tournaments.

Boyd

So, when you speced that rifle you did it because it was a sporter, not because it was a 6PPC? I know where you shoot and looking at that same 2009 schedule I see no SP tournaments. When was the last time you shot a SP tournament?

I'm not trying to start a pi$$ing match here. My point was that shooters do not build or buy a 6PPC because it's a Sporter. They do it because it's a 6 PPC.

And Bob, you touched on one of the real reasons we have both LV and SP. HOF points. World Records is the other.

Ray
 
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why not the 222 anymore

Great conversation"' I'm wondering now just what might happen with LOUs new powder in the duce.
I remember 4895 also shooting really well.
Now we have VV 130 and VV 133 also,
Bullets aren't a problem anymore either.
There's a wide range of match bullets to try.
Maybe it's time to re visit the duce''''
 
There's a lot of monkey see, monkey do in benchrest....

but, with the 6 PPC that's not the case. There just isn't another cartridge that will compete as quickly and easily as the 6 PPC. As Ray said, the .22 Waldog or the .22 PPC .100 short will compete with the 6 PPC, but it's not easy to make the brass for either one and dies have to be adapted for it. The 6 Beggs and .220 Beggs may be able to compete with the 6 PPC, but all these cartridges are .220 Russian based and dies are easier to obtain from a number of sources for the 6 PPC than for the Beggs line or the .22 PPC shorts. I have reamers for both the Beggs cartridges, but just haven't had the time to mess with them yet. Hopefully, next season there will be more time to do that kind of thing.

I've seen guys experiment with cartridges other than the 6 PPC and finish middle of the pack to bottom of the pack. Until a guy can place towards the top or win with the 6 PPC, there's not much point in messing around with other cartridges as the PPC can out shoot most of us anyway. You need to learn the skills to compete and do well in competition before you start tinkering with other cartridges. Of course, if it hadn't been for Ferris Pindell and Lou Palmisano looking for a cartridge to better the 6x47 and .222 in the late 70's, we wouldn't have the 6 PPC that most everyone is shooting now days. Who knows what cartridge will be the replacement for the PPC or when it will be developed. The 6 PPC has just about been the king of benchrest competition since it was introduced.
 
I take it the only real problems with the .222, is that its more wind sensitive than the 6mm PPC, and that it might beharder to get an accurate load worked up?

Steve
 
The .222 triple deuce can not do it in the wind like a 6PPC. You just need to see the reality for yourself. It's the same with any .224 bullet in any chambering you care to dry, when it comes to the wind the 6mm just proves it's self better. That's the reality and I wish it was not the case.
 
Some Disagree

There is a shooter who has had a "tad of success" up in the Oklahoma area who says that the 22 has a advantage over a 6mm in the wind. Of course, he shoots a 22PPC Short at about 3600.

The single reason that the 222, and all other 22's have more or less "died on the vine" is the requirement of 23 caliber or larger in Sporter. This is a historical fact that can be documented as the 6PPC gained popularity. Shooters simply dicovered that you could make a 6 shoot just as well, so why put up with two calibers. That is still the mind set of the majority of shooters.

I have always said that if the Sanctioning Bodies lifted the caliber requirement in Sporter, you would see a resurgence of the 22 in Group Shooting........jackie
 
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Ray,
Although it has been a couple of years since I shot a match, at the time that I got the rifle, the first match that I shot it at was a three day event that included sporter. If you look at the Visalia schedule there are two sporter matches, and the same on the Phoenix. I got a 6PPC because I wanted to be able to shoot any of the matches for 10.5# and 13.5# rifles, because of the success of the caliber, and because virtually all of those who I asked recommended it as the place for a shooter that was starting in competition to start. Given my goals, what else should I have ordered? If I have a barrel chambered for something different, it will be because I think that it will have some advantage over a 6PPC that is worth the money and the time that it takes to learn how to tune a second caliber. What would you suggest?
 
why not the 222 anymore

The one thing we must all admit is that it is a very accurate cartridge capable of giving the ppc a run for it's money on a good day.
That said let me add this.
1 it easy to load for.
2 It's an Ideal case to Teach a new shooter with{mainly people who are recoil sensative {women, children or any one who doesn'y like a kick}
3 it's a great case to learn with' {wind Reading}
4 IT's cheap to shoot { it uses 1/3 less powder}
I think this would be the one to teach new shooters with.
 
Maybe five years ago, Dennis Thornbury pulled a Dorsey sleeved XP 100 out of his gun safe, a .222, and if I remember correctly, won the two gun against a tough field of 6PPCs.

My first tight necked chamber was in a heavy Hart barrel chambered in .222(pillar bedded in an old 40X rimfire prone stock). I knew that virtually all of my informal benchrest shooting was at 100 yd. and I wanted the best possible combination of accuracy and long barrel life. I had a lot of fun with that old rifle.

Later when Kelly McMillan was finalizing the design of his EDGE stock, he graciously put one on my old duce barreled action, which by then had a Canjar Light Pull trigger, and a B&L 36. Having listened to a couple of masters on the subject, when Kelley asked me whether I wanted it pillared or glued, I opted to have it glued in, something I had been leary of trying on my own.

By that time, I had my Viper actioned PPC and I didn't really shoot the .222 as much as I had before, but a few years later I lent it to a friend to encourage his interest in benchrest, and was pleasantly surprised at the number of groups in the high ones that he shot with it. It seems that being glued into a better stock had improved the old 722 into a respectable performer. Previously, it had been a solid quarter inch, (under good conditions, tuned) rifle, but seldom in the ones. Yes, the duce is a fine caliber, but for a shooter that intends to compete, in an area where all three "bag" group classes are contested, I would always recommend the 6PPc.
 
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I shot the .22 PPC in many matches in stationed NBRSA, I well remember Alan Hall telling me I had a lot of gut to shoot a .22 in this wind at a Super Shoot.

I shoot a lot of low one and a few zeros with that barrel when the wind gods were smiling on me, I never had a sporter and 13.5 pound barrel do as well as that Hart barrel, but Hall was right about the wind, the .224 was just not up to it. It was because that .224 in a PPC would shoot so small a group that I got suckered into that mistake.
 
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