What portable scale to purchase

Boyd Allen said:
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Jerry,
Gene Beggs once wrote that for a typical 6PPC, from node to node is approximately 1.2 grains. I presume that he determined this in his tunnel.
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Boyd, many shooters agree that the "width" of a tuning node changes with bullet seating depth. There is another bench how-to book in progress by another HOF shooter who we know well and resepct. His quote in the draft copy is "the tuning node will become wider or narrower with changes in seating depth". So, if that is the case, 0.3 grains could possibly take the tune at a particluar instance into and out of tune. Why take the chance?
 
Jerry,
I always enjoy learning something new, (as long as it doesn't cost me too much money). I had not bee aware of this particular relationship. What has your experience been with the relationship between seating depth and node width? It is my impression that a properly positioned tuner can have that effect. Perhaps if one could add the two advantages...
Boyd
 
In my article in the last PS, I found that weighed charges have a minimal advantage over thrown charges at 100/200 yards. I also shoot 600 yard competition and I weigh each charge for that competition. James
 
German & James

I admit that I too weigh charges for 600 and 1000 yard benchrest. I go a step further and weigh the individual loaded rounds and put them in my boxes in descending (or ascending) order of weight. It gives me that "warm fuzzy feeling" that Dick talked about. And we should never discount that feeling. It's probably worth 1MOA or more on the target.;)

But, I went one season testing different loading techniques running the gambit from weighing everything to weighing nothing. I won just as many fake wood trophies no matter what, and my groups and scores were not much different. Maybe I was just lucky or maybe I had a hummer barrel that couldn't tell the difference?

There's an old PS article written by the guys in Tucson who used to build AR 15 Competition rifles. It is eye opening in that many of the high SD and ES loads produced better long range groups than did those that should have been better. Go figure.

Ray
 
JD Mock said:
In my article in the last PS, I found that weighed charges have a minimal advantage over thrown charges at 100/200 yards. I also shoot 600 yard competition and I weigh each charge for that competition. James
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James,
Interesting article. I ran Analysis of Variance (ANOVA) tests on your group sizes. The result of the ANOVA test is a p-value, which corresponds to the confidence level that weighed versus thrown makes no difference. The p-values were: jammed 0.63, 0.004 off jam 0.85, 0.008 off jam 0.70. A p-value less than 0.05 is generally accepted as evidence that the effect is significant (better than 95% confidence that weighed and thrown charges produce different group sizes). Conversely, a p-value of greater than 0.95 means that there is better than 95% confidence that the mean of the group sizes is the same. Your p-values fall between these limits, so the statistics say that the results are inconclusive, and more data is needed to determine whether weighing charges makes a difference.

Just so I don't get flamed by real statisticians, these were single-factor ANOVA that I did. You actually have three factors (jam, powder charge and weighed/thrown) in this experiment. If anyone has software for doing three-factor ANOVA and could run it on James' test, I would be interested to see the results.

Cheers,
Keith
 
Boyd Allen said:
Jerry,
. What has your experience been with the relationship between seating depth and node width? It is my impression that a properly positioned tuner can have that effect. Perhaps if one could add the two advantages...
Boyd
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To answer the original question as to which scale, for at the range I'd recommend any of the low profile electronic scales or better a RCBS Chargemaster. Balance beam scales would be the worst to get to function in open air.

The last time I was through the Hornady plant in Grand Island, they ad little shirt pocked size Lyman's that were used for spot checking production items. These small scales, while not up to lab quantitative analysis will get a 100/200 shooter close enough and I would use something like that for 600 if I loaded for 600 at the range. And, being small and low profile they are more wind resistant. They are close enough for the diamond trade and dope trade, so there!!

As to Boyds question about node limit vs seating depth, I've never gotten that close to all the ins and outs. I usually just change something/anything till it starts working again. I do use a load matrix process to make my guesses as what to do next. Or, sometimes I just do a Patrick McMannis FBLP!!
 
Jerry

I have one of those little Lyman scales - LE 300 - and it is just as wind sensitive as the others. It seems to detect winds that you cannot see or feel. I thought about using it as a wind meter. ;)

ray
 
Cheechako said:
Jerry

I have one of those little Lyman scales - LE 300 - and it is just as wind sensitive as the others. It seems to detect winds that you cannot see or feel. I thought about using it as a wind meter. ;)

ray
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Well so much for low profile being more wind resistant. I have a couple of the little RCBS scales and they aren't bad in the wind but our wind may not be as bad as your wind.

We just talked to Sam Arnett at Phoenix and the Cactus is on schedule.
 
From what I have read, there is an issue with digital scales not responding when small quantities of powder are added to a thrown charge that is already on the scale. Some posters have said that they could work around this by very lightly touching the pan just after each small addition of powder. Perhaps a wind enclosure,with a linkage that allows this would be a work around.

Although not cheap, the scale that comes as a part of the Chargemaster, which is available separately, seems to respond well to small added amounts of powder. One of these, in a wind box (that also housed a battery pack), with a trickler, similar to the one that I have for my balance scale, would probably do the trick......or you could just go ahead and get a Chargemaster.
 
Many scales are sensitive to very small increases in weight. They are also sensitive to starting to weigh a charge that is below a certain weight. It's in the manual! I actually read mine after I encountered the difficulties. It would not have been the manly thing to read it beforehand.

Ray
 
Boyd Allen said:
From what I have read, there is an issue with digital scales not responding when small quantities of powder are added to a thrown charge that is already on the scale. Some posters have said that they could work around this by very lightly touching the pan just after each small addition of powder. Perhaps a wind enclosure,with a linkage that allows this would be a work around.

Although not cheap, the scale that comes as a part of the Chargemaster, which is available separately, seems to respond well to small added amounts of powder. One of these, in a wind box (that also housed a battery pack), with a trickle, similar to the one that I have for my balance scale, would probably do the trick......or you could just go ahead and get a Chargemaster.
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If you understand the construction of the load cell that weigh the powder its easy to see how some load cells are more sensitive than others, meaning the most responsive are more expensive and the more expensive being used in the more expensive scales. An RCBS "Partner" scale, costing less than $100, has no where near as sensitive load cell as did the now obsolete RCBS model 90 which cost over $400 at the time it was discontinued.
 
[Attached are some pics of my setup. Admittedly, this may be a bit of overkill. But, I have a shop and enjoy working with pretty woods. ]

Now Glen....... I have to tell you that your cabinet is as pretty as the fine wind flags you make!
Blake perry
 
The Best scale I have seen to date

a friend showed me last fall. He has a very accurate electronic scale that came with it's very own plexiglas curtains installed into it's intergril frame. Perhaps he will chime in here and tell us the make of it, etc. Slickest little thing I have seen to date and is of Labratory quality for accuracy, Dick P ?
 
Hi Pete,
Are you talking about the "My Weigh I Balance" scale with the plexiglass box that fits on top of it? I have one and it has the plexiglass box with the sliding panels so you can open whichever panel you want depending on the wind direction. I bought it from "oldwillknottscales.com". I have been using it for about 2 years and am very pleased with it. They are easy to deal with and the prices are good, service is excellent. I also have a MyWeigh scale that goes to 75 lbs. for weighing rifles and anything else I can think of(good for shipping packages when you need to know the weight.)
Best,
Dan Batko

"Where are we going and why am I in this basket?"
 
Boyd Allen said:
From what I have read, there is an issue with digital scales not responding when small quantities of powder are added to a thrown charge that is already on the scale. Some posters have said that they could work around this by very lightly touching the pan just after each small addition of powder. Perhaps a wind enclosure,with a linkage that allows this would be a work around.

Although not cheap, the scale that comes as a part of the Chargemaster, which is available separately, seems to respond well to small added amounts of powder. One of these, in a wind box (that also housed a battery pack), with a trickler, similar to the one that I have for my balance scale, would probably do the trick......or you could just go ahead and get a Chargemaster.
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I trickle all the time with my Pact scales, and have never had this problem
gary
 
No, the scale my friend showed me is Electronic. DICK !!!!!!!! The whole package is like 8" square, mebby 10" square. I even think they are made in USA.
 
When I weighed ten charges to find the variance this is the procedure I used. I throw one charge and weigh it. Write the weight down. Put the weighed charge back into its bottle. Throw another weigh it write it down. Until I have thrown and weighed ten charges. The difference between the heaviest and lightest was 0.05gn over the required weight and 0.05gn under the required weight. A spread of 0.1gn

It seems to be able to achieve that sort of accuracy irrespective of the type of powder.

Andy.
 
I don't engage in organized competition, but I seek the same kind of pinpoint accuracy you guys do. When I use to load at the range I simply brought along an oversized cardboard box that was open on one side. The beeezier it was, the further back I pushed my 10-10 scale deeper into the box. It was a system that worked well enough for me.


Cheechako said:
Many scales are sensitive to very small increases in weight. They are also sensitive to starting to weigh a charge that is below a certain weight. It's in the manual! I actually read mine after I encountered the difficulties. It would not have been the manly thing to read it beforehand.

Ray
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As for accuracy;

I use an RCBS 10-10 scale. Accuracy of this unit is normally a perfect zero or to within half of 1/10 of a grain when I take the extra time to weigh each individual charge at least twice. Otherwise, you can catch the cotton-pickin thing being off 1/10 grain or more. It's not unusual for me to stubbornly tweak the amount of powder in the pan 3 or 4 times if necessary to get the same measurement continously. (ie; having to remove or add as little as 2 or 3 single granules of powder until I'm satisfied to get the same reading at least twice.) As of yesterday, this system has proved its worth by putting the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds of my AR15 into one .15" sized hole. (now if I can just figure a way to keep the last 5th and final round from being the dreaded flyer that opened the group to 11/16".....arghhhh!! )
 
squeakie said:
I keep mine in a tall cigar box (wooden one) that's about 6" x 7" x 4" tall. Has a sliding lid that can be closed halfway. Looking for a shorter one with a sliding lid right now. I like to store all my tools in wood cigar boxed I might add.
gary
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All of them are aggravating as heck. You put a case on, zero it, throw a charge, weigh it, then have to add powder, and the damned thing now weighs less. Or, you keep adding, and adding, and finally it goes up.
_______________
link magnets
 
Just in!

I found out the make and model of the "Scale" my friend Dick has! It's a Sartorius Analytical Balance, Model # H51. He was steered to it by a friend who works in a Weights and Measures Lab, as I recall. You can find this type of " Analytical Balance" on Ebay in both new and old condition. Most of em have the nifty box around them.

P.S. Dick's friend also recommends the Mettler brand.
 
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