What about Chrome-moly barrels?
- Thread starter Pete Wass
- Start date
Butch Lambert
Active member
I am.....the barrel wisperer.
P.S. Seely used to come to matches with his wood paneled station wagon with a fake artillery shell strapped to the roof rack that was about 2' across and about 6' long.
P.P.S. Remember you got one of those rare Remmy BR scopes because I passed on it so.....you owe me.
Tim,
Did you pass on all of these?
These 3 came from Jimmy Stekl
Or was it one of these from Mike Walker?
The last one is the prototype. Sure glad that you passed on these for me. I am very happy to have them.
Thanks Again
Jimmy is a dear friend, 45 minutes down the road and has shot CF & RF with us for 25 years, so yes, as well as all his great machine tools and tooling, etc.
A buddy has his milling machine which came from the arms, about the size of a UPS truck.
I probably would have one or two if I did'nt have a couple BV-20's which evolved from them.
I do, however, have a few cases left of the Remington BR bullets, when's the last time you saw many of those?
A buddy has his milling machine which came from the arms, about the size of a UPS truck.
I probably would have one or two if I did'nt have a couple BV-20's which evolved from them.
I do, however, have a few cases left of the Remington BR bullets, when's the last time you saw many of those?
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Butch Lambert
Active member
Tim,
I do have a 1000 22 bullets that I got at Red Cornelison's estate. A few other guys have some of them in the area. Ever used any Ted Holmes bullets from Mattoon, Il? I have a very few left in 22. I think the majority of the guys from your time shot 22s. The 6s came later. When I bought some of Red's stuff I had a pickup loaded above the sideboards with bullets, brass, primers, powder, dies, and so on. The next trip I had a pickup load with sideboards with 50 year old wood stock blanks.
Why don't we converse by email and not clutter this forum up. I can send you all kinds of photos.
I do have a 1000 22 bullets that I got at Red Cornelison's estate. A few other guys have some of them in the area. Ever used any Ted Holmes bullets from Mattoon, Il? I have a very few left in 22. I think the majority of the guys from your time shot 22s. The 6s came later. When I bought some of Red's stuff I had a pickup loaded above the sideboards with bullets, brass, primers, powder, dies, and so on. The next trip I had a pickup load with sideboards with 50 year old wood stock blanks.
Why don't we converse by email and not clutter this forum up. I can send you all kinds of photos.
cut rifled
New member
This thread makes my head hurt.
Paul Tolvstad
Paul Tolvstad
cut rifled
New member
Simplest reason I can give, is typically you would have to go through the time and expense of getting it blued to keep it from rusting.
416R is made specifically for barrel making, I believe it has more nickel or sulphur( I don't remember) content to better help with machinability.
4140 is your typical grade Chrome Moly that everyone uses
4150 is machine gun grade Chrome Moly which is suppose to give longer barrel life over 4140.
We tried all different kinds of steel to make barrels with, 405 ( was a special steel made for Marine Grade propeller shafts I believe), 17-4, even titanium and all the others you can think of.
416R is the best SS available for barrel making otherwise everyone wouldn't be using it. And believe me they have ALL tried everything else.
Myself personally when I ran the manual contour lathe I much preferred using 416R over the Chrome Moly's, but I guarantee you a CNC contour lathe could care less.
Cut rifling it doesn't matter which material you use you just have to adjust things when doing it.
Butttoning barrels, it is actually easier to button rifle Chrome Moly than it is 416R SS.
Chrome Moly by rights should actually last longer than 416R barrels
Example: Most barrel makers won't make little pencil size hunting barrels out of 416R but they will out of CM. in really cold weather a 416R barrel could split.
Lapping wise I could really care less what material it was.
416R is made specifically for barrel making, I believe it has more nickel or sulphur( I don't remember) content to better help with machinability.
4140 is your typical grade Chrome Moly that everyone uses
4150 is machine gun grade Chrome Moly which is suppose to give longer barrel life over 4140.
We tried all different kinds of steel to make barrels with, 405 ( was a special steel made for Marine Grade propeller shafts I believe), 17-4, even titanium and all the others you can think of.
416R is the best SS available for barrel making otherwise everyone wouldn't be using it. And believe me they have ALL tried everything else.
Myself personally when I ran the manual contour lathe I much preferred using 416R over the Chrome Moly's, but I guarantee you a CNC contour lathe could care less.
Cut rifling it doesn't matter which material you use you just have to adjust things when doing it.
Butttoning barrels, it is actually easier to button rifle Chrome Moly than it is 416R SS.
Chrome Moly by rights should actually last longer than 416R barrels
Example: Most barrel makers won't make little pencil size hunting barrels out of 416R but they will out of CM. in really cold weather a 416R barrel could split.
Lapping wise I could really care less what material it was.
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
Thanks Paul,
This is what I had hoped might happen. I have seen a number of old BR rifles with CM barrels "in the white" and a number of shotguns, as I remember? so not bluing isn't that much of a concern, to me at least.
My interest is, I see SS Rimfire barrels that have, what I believe are, soft spots in them that collect lead and I wonder if CM barrels are or might be the same ?way. I guess the only way to find out is to try a couple, eh?
Happy Holidays,
Pete
This is what I had hoped might happen. I have seen a number of old BR rifles with CM barrels "in the white" and a number of shotguns, as I remember? so not bluing isn't that much of a concern, to me at least.
My interest is, I see SS Rimfire barrels that have, what I believe are, soft spots in them that collect lead and I wonder if CM barrels are or might be the same ?way. I guess the only way to find out is to try a couple, eh?
Happy Holidays,
Pete
Now we have " soft spots " collecting lead??? This was determined, exactly how Pete ?
Again, with the lead issue, unique to you.
Now all this I find quite interesting. After your post on No Lead I figured, this is somewhat interesting, perhaps I should try this and myself and another experienced rimfire shooters ran tests.
I bought some and followed instructions on the container to the letter.
Now my first test was to put some lead scrapings from a slug into a small container with the solvent and it immediately started a chemical reaction and sacrifices itself when disolving lead....so it works.
My primary reason in doing this was to check on my barrel maintenance and see what if anything I might be missing. The one caveat here is that, as we all know, lead is deposited in the throats of .22's but I employ a different methodology, checked regularly with my borescope. My concern was about lead deposits elswhere in barrels that Pete has posted on requiring regular scrubbing.
I went through the entire cleaning process on three regularly shot barrels on guns, each from a different manufacture. They were taken right down to clean metal with zero lube, oil, etc.
Not one single patch yeilded any color, deposit, anything at all, after one hour, 90 minutes, up to 2 hours of soak time.
I would invite anybody to try it, for 11 bucks, what do you have to lose?
Me....I am quite comfortable with my methodology.
Same result with a couple barrels of co tester.
My question would be.....if you get lead deposits in the bore of your barrels,what might you be doing to those barrels and your cleaning?
This also verifies what Gordon Eck told me some time ago.......never saw lead in any match barrel over hundereds of them that are properly maintained.
Again, with the lead issue, unique to you.
Now all this I find quite interesting. After your post on No Lead I figured, this is somewhat interesting, perhaps I should try this and myself and another experienced rimfire shooters ran tests.
I bought some and followed instructions on the container to the letter.
Now my first test was to put some lead scrapings from a slug into a small container with the solvent and it immediately started a chemical reaction and sacrifices itself when disolving lead....so it works.
My primary reason in doing this was to check on my barrel maintenance and see what if anything I might be missing. The one caveat here is that, as we all know, lead is deposited in the throats of .22's but I employ a different methodology, checked regularly with my borescope. My concern was about lead deposits elswhere in barrels that Pete has posted on requiring regular scrubbing.
I went through the entire cleaning process on three regularly shot barrels on guns, each from a different manufacture. They were taken right down to clean metal with zero lube, oil, etc.
Not one single patch yeilded any color, deposit, anything at all, after one hour, 90 minutes, up to 2 hours of soak time.
I would invite anybody to try it, for 11 bucks, what do you have to lose?
Me....I am quite comfortable with my methodology.
Same result with a couple barrels of co tester.
My question would be.....if you get lead deposits in the bore of your barrels,what might you be doing to those barrels and your cleaning?
This also verifies what Gordon Eck told me some time ago.......never saw lead in any match barrel over hundereds of them that are properly maintained.
Yes Pete, I had. It was leading up from just behind the crown for about a couple inches. Gary lapped the barrel & I haven't had the problem since. I would faithfully use Shooter's Choice lead remover after it was noticed, basically for the rest of the season. That combined with bronze brushing but nothing extensive. For peace of mind more than anything.
It was a Ratchet, FWIW. I saw evidence of it happening to a friend in VA as well, although wasn't able to bore scope it. We saw the grey streaking on the patches though after using the SC product. Also a Ratchet.
Keith
Pete Wass
Well-known member
The dreaded Gray
Any time there is gray, there is lead.
I think one reason folks don't think they see lead in their barrels is it becomes shiny, like the rest of the barrel, during the cleaning process and is difficult for some to see, even with a bore scope but, all the barrels I have lead up and in different spots in their length. One thing that helps is the LED upgrade to bore scopes.
It shows itself when barrel is shot over a day's shooting; the ones that collect lead; the ones I have. I think many people keep it at bay but I think more folks have lead present in their barrels than they realize. If that is heresy, then so be it but some of us recognize it and try to keep it out, not just stay ahead of it.
I am pleased to find a solvent that seems to take it out. I have used a lot of the shooters choice lead remover but felt it only kept it at bay and I had to do a lot of scrubbing along with it. Perhaps the new stuff will at last minimize the scrubbing part.
Pete
Any time there is gray, there is lead.
I think one reason folks don't think they see lead in their barrels is it becomes shiny, like the rest of the barrel, during the cleaning process and is difficult for some to see, even with a bore scope but, all the barrels I have lead up and in different spots in their length. One thing that helps is the LED upgrade to bore scopes.
It shows itself when barrel is shot over a day's shooting; the ones that collect lead; the ones I have. I think many people keep it at bay but I think more folks have lead present in their barrels than they realize. If that is heresy, then so be it but some of us recognize it and try to keep it out, not just stay ahead of it.
I am pleased to find a solvent that seems to take it out. I have used a lot of the shooters choice lead remover but felt it only kept it at bay and I had to do a lot of scrubbing along with it. Perhaps the new stuff will at last minimize the scrubbing part.
Pete
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Pete, did you ever consider, just for a moment, that there might, just possibly be something that you are doing to your barrels that compromises their ability to carry lube all the way down their length resulting in leading ????
Answering questions is important. Asking the right ones in the first place........maybe more so.
Just a thought.
Answering questions is important. Asking the right ones in the first place........maybe more so.
Just a thought.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Yes I have
but others find the same thing I do. I think some of us have found out we have lead in some barrels and others have yet to discover it. You seem to be one of the few who have never seen any evidence of lead in your barrels. Wish the rest of us were as fortunate as you have been.
I thought at first is was the Rock Creek barrels I started with but then I had a new rifle made with a Shilen on it and it too seems to attract lead and had lead in it when I got it back from the folks who put it together. Both Wilson barrels I have lead the same way the Rocks and the Shilen have and from the from the beginning of them.
The Shilen on the Anschutz Sporter I sometimes borrow from a friend leads in three spots. Shoots great when it is spotless and slowly declines as the day goes along, so yes, I have considered a lot of things. That barrel was used before my friend owned it so we won't blame him for it's bad behavior.
I will go way back and repeat what I said, " I think a lot of barrels folks have given up on would still shoot great if they were cleaned". It isn't only lead but wax and carbon slowly build up over time and end up killing accuracy. I have found that the slurry comes off in layers when one finally realizes what they are facing.
I suspect there are some barrels that require less cleaning than others but from the half dozen rimfiure barrels I have fooled with I have found that 1. they never shoot better than they do when they are fouled after been cleaned spotlessly and 2. the barrels I have experienced all lead foul in different spots along their length under and among the baked on wax and carbon. I have spent a lot of time and energy looking for a faster way to clean the ones I have and I think I may be getting there, finally.
Pete
but others find the same thing I do. I think some of us have found out we have lead in some barrels and others have yet to discover it. You seem to be one of the few who have never seen any evidence of lead in your barrels. Wish the rest of us were as fortunate as you have been.
I thought at first is was the Rock Creek barrels I started with but then I had a new rifle made with a Shilen on it and it too seems to attract lead and had lead in it when I got it back from the folks who put it together. Both Wilson barrels I have lead the same way the Rocks and the Shilen have and from the from the beginning of them.
The Shilen on the Anschutz Sporter I sometimes borrow from a friend leads in three spots. Shoots great when it is spotless and slowly declines as the day goes along, so yes, I have considered a lot of things. That barrel was used before my friend owned it so we won't blame him for it's bad behavior.
I will go way back and repeat what I said, " I think a lot of barrels folks have given up on would still shoot great if they were cleaned". It isn't only lead but wax and carbon slowly build up over time and end up killing accuracy. I have found that the slurry comes off in layers when one finally realizes what they are facing.
I suspect there are some barrels that require less cleaning than others but from the half dozen rimfiure barrels I have fooled with I have found that 1. they never shoot better than they do when they are fouled after been cleaned spotlessly and 2. the barrels I have experienced all lead foul in different spots along their length under and among the baked on wax and carbon. I have spent a lot of time and energy looking for a faster way to clean the ones I have and I think I may be getting there, finally.
Pete