UBR target mis-sized, favors smaller caliber.

[R.G. Robinett]

Having looked up the UBR target size (http://ultimatebenchrest.com/about/the-targets), there is a definite penalty imposed for using a thirty caliber. Historically, BR shooting has been predicated upon center-to-center (CtC) measurement/scoring: groups are measured CtC, and scoring is best edge - both reflect RADIAL scoring. This is logical, since, on any given shot, only the 1/2 of the bullet hole counts.

In score shooting, the actual difference is, thus, the radius compared to the radius - not diameters vs diameter. The UBR page info states: the 30 Cal. ten-ring measures .450", while the 6mm/243 ten-ring is .515. Subtraction clearly results in a diametrically sized difference (.065"), which results in a 0.0325" advantage for the smaller caliber.

UBR is a different game, and not quite what it was intended, or, stated to be. In order to be, "caliber neutral", the difference, in 10-ring diameter, between the 30 vs 6mm, should be .450" vs .4825". Do not misunderstand - I am not saying this is BAD, it's just not comparable to IBS/NBRSA scoring, and, in fact, favors the smaller calibers.

That stated, perhaps someone can/will point out an error in my logic, and convince me otherwise. Keep 'em ON the X! RG

P.S. This egregious, humiliating error, on my part, is so bad, that I wish I could claim to be living in either Colorado, or, on the West coast, and that, I was smoking something. :-(
My blinders were on so tight, that, apparently (obviously) while talking and visualizing radial differences, my bull-headed alter ego added the 0.065 to the 10-ring radius, failing to SEE the math - regrettable, and inexcusable. RG

 

[retired]

You got it. A joke for 6ppc shooters to beat 30br.
What other shooting game are different sized targets used based
on what the shooters caliber is ? none.
Strickly a gimic to allow 6ppc shooters to shoot score.

 

[mwezell]

Having looked up the UBR target size (http://ultimatebenchrest.com/about/the-targets), there is a definite penalty imposed for using a thirty caliber. Historically, BR shooting has been predicated upon center-to-center (CtC) measurement/scoring: groups are measured CtC, and scoring is best edge - both reflect RADIAL scoring. This is logical, since, on any given shot, only the 1/2 of the bullet hole counts.

In score shooting, the actual difference is, thus, the radius compared to the radius - not diameters vs diameter. The UBR page info states: the 30 Cal. ten-ring measures .450", while the 6mm/243 ten-ring is .515. Subtraction clearly results in a diametrically sized difference (.065"), which results in a 0.0325" advantage for the smaller caliber.

UBR is a different game, and not quite what it was intended, or, stated to be. In order to be, "caliber neutral", the difference, in 10-ring diameter, between the 30 vs 6mm, should be .450" vs .4825". Do not misunderstand - I am not saying this is BAD, it's just not comparable to IBS/NBRSA scoring, and, in fact, favors the smaller calibers.

That stated, perhaps someone can/will point out an error in my logic, and convince me otherwise. Keep 'em ON the X! RG

I've already corrected you on this Randy, but you fail to understand, and this thread is uncalled for.
I'll let you and others hash this one out.

I will add that you shouldn't knock it until you've at the very least, tried it. Have you?

 

[Kyle Schultz]

I know nothing about UBR but...

I do see how the math works. The radius of a .30 caliber bullet is 0.1540" and the radius of a 6mm bullet is 0.1215". The goal of a caliber neutral target would be that both bullets centered on each other would each just cut the 10 ring. For that to happen, the radius of the 6mm bull would need to be (0.1540" minus 0.1215") or 0.0325" larger than the .30 caliber bull. Diameter is 2X the radius. So if the diameter of the .30 caliber bull is 0.450", then the diameter of the 6mm bull would need to be 0.515" so that the 6mm radii would be 0.0325" larger. Radii on the opposite side of the scoring ring from the impact point means nothing. It's like runway behind a plane taking off. It's only what's ahead that matters. HTH.

 

[mwezell]

I do see how the math works. The radius of a .30 caliber bullet is 0.1540" and the radius of a 6mm bullet is 0.1215". The goal of a caliber neutral target would be that both bullets centered on each other would each just cut the 10 ring. For that to happen, the radius of the 6mm bull would need to be (0.1540" minus 0.1215") or 0.0325" larger than the .30 caliber bull. Diameter is 2X the radius. So if the diameter of the .30 caliber bull is 0.450", then the diameter of the 6mm bull would need to be 0.515" so that the 6mm radii would be 0.0325" larger. Radii on the opposite side of the scoring ring from the impact point means nothing. It's like runway behind a plane taking off. It's only what's ahead that matters. HTH.

Hi Kyle,
Read the link that Randy posted from the UBR website. http://ultimatebenchrest.com/about/the-targets It explains it very well IMO. As I see it, I can hit the dot with a bullet on either side of the dot and it be an 11(x in IBS).
It might be confusing at first but it's working and UBR isn't the one that has a problem. UBR is growing. Maybe that's what this is all about!

 

[R.G. Robinett]

I've already corrected you on this Randy, but you fail to understand, and this thread is uncalled for.
I'll let you and others hash this one out.

I will add that you shouldn't knock it until you've at the very least, tried it. Have you?

Since concentric bullet holes are the same distance from the center of the bull, the sizing IS correct, and my reasoning (above) was incorrect. I'll try, sheepishly, to, "Keep 'em ON the X!" RG

 

[jackie schmidt]

Na

I would think the biggest difference in the two Disciplines is making the center dot an 11 instead of a tiebreaker. It's pretty well understood that in NBRSA and IBS Score, if you shoot a nine, you'er toast.

However, in UBR, you can nail an 11 and get it back.

I would think that if anything, the UBR Format favors Shooters who tend to have high X counts.

I have never participated in a UBR Match. I shot 16 100 Yard VFS Aggs last year. My worst scor was 19 X's, my best, 23. I averaged 22 X's for the season. I never dropped a point at 100. In my opinion, I would fit right into the UBR Format.

Granted some of those X's might not count in UBR, since the dot is .012 smaller. But my point is, shooters who do well in one version of Score will probably do as well in the other.

Group and Score have a much greater difference in the way shooters approach the game. Since I shoot both, I can say that I shoot Group different than Score. Most Group Shooters put a extreme amount of development in getting the Rifle to return to the exact point of aim after every shot and getting the next round in as quickly as possible. It's the "you have 7 minutes to pick out the 20 seconds to shoot your Group".

I am not going to say that won't work in Score, but most of the Shooters I compete against in Score are very meticulous in each shot, taking their time, watching the subtle changes that could push the bullet off of the X.

The difficulty evens out in the difference between the two Disciplines. You might need a better agging Rifle to win at Group, (my opinion), but you also don't have to hit that Dot on every shot.

Just my opinion also, that old crap about only needing a .300 Rifle to win at Score?? I have never bought into that. If you are going to stay at the top, and hit 20+ X's every outing, .300 ain't gonna cut it.

 

[mwezell]

Na

I would think the biggest difference in the two Disciplines is making the center dot an 11 instead of a tiebreaker. It's pretty well understood that in NBRSA and IBS Score, if you shoot a nine, your toast.

However, in UBR, you can nail an 11 and get it back.

I would think that if anything, the UBR Format favors Shooters who tend to have high X counts.

I have never participated in a UBR Match. I shot 16 100 Yard VFS Aggs last year. My worst scor was 19 X's, my best, 23. I averaged 22 X's for the season. I never dropped a point at 100. In my opinion, I would fit right into the UBR Format.

Granted some of those X's might not count in UBR, since the dot is .012 smaller. But my point is, shooters who do well in one version of Score will probably do as well in the other.

Group and Score have a much greater difference in the way shooters approach the game. Since I shoot both, I can say that I shoot Group different than Score. Most Group Shooters put a extreme amount of development in getting the Rifle to return to the exact point of aim after every shot and getting the next round in as quickly as possible. It's the "you have 7 minutes to pick out the 20 seconds to shoot your Group.

I am not going to say that won't work in Score, but most of the Shooters I compete against in Score are very meticulous in each shot, taking their time, watching the subtle changes that could push the bullet off of the X.

The difficulty evens out in the difference between the two Disciplines. You might need a better agging Rifle to win at Group, (my opinion), but you also don't have to hit that Dot on every shot.

Just my opinion also, that old crap about only needing a .300 Rifle to win at Score?? I have never bought into that. If you are going to stay at the top, and hit 20+ X's every outing, .300 ain't gonna cut it.

I agree with everything you said, sir.

UBR and group both offer the chance to make up for one bad shot, sometimes. Neither is very forgiving but anybody can get caught in a switch and shoot a 9, just as easily as they can shoot a .4 in group. If you can muster a boat load of 11's, like shooting some screamers and teens, you can often come back from it.

Of course, it really shows up at 200, where it's easy to shoot a 9 or a big group.
There is a little different mentality to it than shooting IBS/NBRSA. If you're leading by a point in IBS, you can shoot "safe" 10's and hang on. In UBR, the guy trailing you by a point may shoot a better card and pass you by.

In IBS/NBRSA, the winners are usually a select few that manages to stay clean at both yardages. It's common to see only 1,2 or 3 shooters stay clean going into the last target.

In UBR, a 2 or 3 point lead in not safe until the last shot is fired. It's a game of dots not rings.

 

[mwezell]

Well, where's Bill Gammon?
The Canadians have been using the IBS Score Target for years. They score an X as 11. Such a progressive country that Canada, EH?

I believe you are correct Francis. Seems like I remember this from about the time UBR started contesting matches, in 2011, IIRC.

The 11 point x is but one aspect of UBR, but I do believe that aspect helps keep it more interesting, right up to the last shot fired.

It's another game. I like the 11 point system but the big thing is the caliber neutral aspect. It allows a level playing field for someone who has an old ppc in the safe, but nowhere to shoot group, for example... As well as the 30's that rule the other score disciplines. Can't leave out the 22's either. I've tied a record with a 220 Beggs and there have been others to be very competitive shooting one of the 22's, in score!
As you can see, it opens the door to people not only being competitive, but winning with a 22, a 6 and a 30.

I've shot all three and I think, like any form of BR, it comes down to good barrels and bullets. Right now, my best rifle is a 30 but several who use to shoot 30's have migrated to 6's and 22's.

The rules are less confining, leaving room for experimentation and a class for virtually anyone to shoot what they have.

The only equipment rules, in all but unlimited class, are stock width of 3" or narrower , weight 13-1/2lbs or under, and caliber of no larger than 30 cal. Oh, and I think no 1 pc rests allowed. I may be forgetting something, but that's the gist of it.

Unlimited is, run what ya brung, 30 cal or smaller. One piece rests are allowed, as are rail guns, if one is so inclined.

 

[Greyfox]

I appreciate all the attention being given to the Ultimate Benchrest Target & scoring system. I won't take a position on which game is the best as that's a personal preference. We like our game and I know that the IBS/NBRSA shooters like theirs. What I do want to bring up is something I just checked a few minutes ago and thought was pretty interesting.

I am match director for two separate matches/ranges in Middle TN. Since the Gallatin Gun Club lost access to the range we had at the TVA Gallatin Steam Plant we had to find other places to shoot. I looked at the results of the Two Brothers match at the end of May and the Strategic Edge match the following Saturday, June 3rd. Many of the participants overlap (shoot at both ranges), so the combined total of different shooters (rough count) is 23 the actual total is 45. Of these 23 competitors I am the only one who shot IBS VFS in the past. All the rest have come into this discipline as newbies and stayed with the game. We started shooting UBR in 2011 (I think) with 4 ranges, probably 50 competitors, maybe a few less. In 2017 registered matches were held at 10 ranges and according to the SSOY list, there were a total of 279 who shoot in the four classes (some shoot in two or three classes and a very few shoot all four). It's reasonable to say that we had 250 competitors shooting UBR matches last year and most did not come from the two national organizations. Most of these are new shooters.

The subject of how to get new benchrest shooters into the game has been discussed here frequently. There are many suggestions, some good, some not so much. When various criticisms of the UBR scoring system, targets, classes etc are brought up it might be good to take notice of the fact that we are bringing new shooters into the game every season and the majority are staying. Which game is best is immaterial. What is important is what is working.

Rick

 

[mwezell]

I appreciate all the attention being given to the Ultimate Benchrest Target & scoring system. I won't take a position on which game is the best as that's a personal preference. We like our game and I know that the IBS/NBRSA shooters like theirs. What I do want to bring up is something I just checked a few minutes ago and thought was pretty interesting.

I am match director for two separate matches/ranges in Middle TN. Since the Gallatin Gun Club lost access to the range we had at the TVA Gallatin Steam Plant we had to find other places to shoot. I looked at the results of the Two Brothers match at the end of May and the Strategic Edge match the following Saturday, June 3rd. Many of the participants overlap (shoot at both ranges), so the combined total of different shooters (rough count) is 23 the actual total is 45. Of these 23 competitors I am the only one who shot IBS VFS in the past. All the rest have come into this discipline as newbies and stayed with the game. We started shooting UBR in 2011 (I think) with 4 ranges, probably 50 competitors, maybe a few less. In 2017 registered matches were held at 10 ranges and according to the SSOY list, there were a total of 279 who shoot in the four classes (some shoot in two or three classes and a very few shoot all four). It's reasonable to say that we had 250 competitors shooting UBR matches last year and most did not come from the two national organizations. Most of these are new shooters.

The subject of how to get new benchrest shooters into the game has been discussed here frequently. There are many suggestions, some good, some not so much. When various criticisms of the UBR scoring system, targets, classes etc are brought up it might be good to take notice of the fact that we are bringing new shooters into the game every season and the majority are staying. Which game is best is immaterial. What is important is what is working.

Rick

You just said a big mouth full!

We can debate everyone's strengths and weaknesses, and none of them are perfect.. but at the end of the day, UBR is really growing and doing well, while bringing in new shooters. This is what every organisation wants and needs.

 

[mwezell]

I hope that now everyone has realized that the UBR targets are in fact Caliber Neutral... I hope that the title of this thread can be changed. False News

..and I had just saved it to my computer.

 

[retired]

ubr's basic logic is flawed.They start with the
wrong ASSumption that the world revolves around the
CENTER of the bullet.
IT JUST AINT SO IN SCORE
I can hit the dot with the right or left edge and score well.
The whole ubr target is based on a poor wrong assumption.

 

[mwezell]

ubr's basic logic is flawed.They start with the
wrong ASSumption that the world revolves around the
CENTER of the bullet.
IT JUST AINT SO IN SCORE
I can hit the dot with the right or left edge and score well.
The whole ubr target is based on a poor wrong assumption.

Maybe I'm missing something here but, it's just the opposite, IMHO.
The link explains it well. If anything, it's based on the outside edge.

Obviously, there is still some misunderstanding of how it works.

A friend sent me a text earlier because all of this talk had made him question what he ASSumed to be the case all along. He put the numbers into his CAD/CAM program and texted me to say that it is in fact FAIR.

As I said, it made be confusing until you understand it, but it is mathematically correct and has proven itself to be so for the last several years now. It might be confusing but it's still mathematics 101. I don't fault anyone that doesn't understand it at first but please, don't argue with math.

 

[Greyfox]

ubr's basic logic is flawed.They start with the
wrong ASSumption that the world revolves around the
CENTER of the bullet.
IT JUST AINT SO IN SCORE
I can hit the dot with the right or left edge and score well.
The whole ubr target is based on a poor wrong assumption.

You know I read your first post on this thread and it was incorrect and didn't make sense. This one is about the same. Would you care to share your logic about this center of the bullet stuff? I've been shooting some kind of score targets for fifteen years and I don't recall anything like this. Also, if you don't shoot UBR matches, why do you even care? You might wanna get your meds checked.

Rick

 

[jackie schmidt]

Well, where's Bill Gammon?
The Canadians have been using the IBS Score Target for years. They score an X as 11. Such a progressive country that Canada, EH?

Francis, back when many of us pushed for the NBRSA to adopt Varmint for Score, it was suggested that the X become an eleven.

The majority thought otherwise.

 

[Richard]

Is UBR

just an eastern thing or what. I have never seen anything (or matches) in the western part of the US.
It sounds interesting.

Richard

 

[Greyfox]

just an eastern thing or what. I have never seen anything (or matches) in the western part of the US.
It sounds interesting.

Richard

We started in TN, KY & VA seven years ago. UBR has expanded into IN, OH, GA, AL, PA and in 2018 in NC. So yes, right now it is a southeastern, more or less, thing. WE have sent targets and information to various clubs all over the country upon request. SSOY competition requires that a shooter competes at a minimum of two ranges. You can get in touch with me for information and targets by email. tnmountainaire@bellsouth.net

Rick

 

[Pete Wass]

I was poking around

in the IBS records and standings the other day and thought it interesting that the first 5, 250-25"s were shot with 6 PPC's. I think the 5th one had 19 wipeouts. Just saying.

Pete

 

[mwezell]

Fwiw, UBR is being contested in more states and areas as unsanctioned matches. I think Danny told me 23 different states. That was in September, I believe.
I'd ask around in your area..if there are none in your area, consider holding them.