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Dave Shattuck
Guest
Pete,
With a Harrell's you have 500 clicks over a 1/2 inch (meaning 1000 over an inch), so wouldn't make it .001" per click?
Dave
Tuners what do you think about my first one?
- Thread starter cloudrepair
- Start date
Pete,
With a Harrell's you have 500 clicks over a 1/2 inch (meaning 1000 over an inch), so wouldn't make it .001" per click?
Dave
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Weights are a humongous swing at tune. I do not believe you need a bunch of additional weights to tune a rifle if you are very methodical. FWIW though, I have made weights for my tuners. In fact, the thin cover plate over the end is a weight..just not a very heavy one and is meant not for weight, but is merely decorative. But, it can be removed and replaced with a heavier cover..err, weight.
As for the PRX...I don't shoot much RF anymore, but when I did, I felt I could make a gun shoot just as well with the tube cut flush as to any specific length. A lot of people believe otherwise...so, it's there. It can be cut to their desired length. This only applies to my rimfire tuners.
Another thing...my posts here have been relative to CF. But, regardless of what you hear or read, I have not found tuning one to be significantly different from the other..rf vs. cf. The only difference I see is that with the current flavor for rf br contours, the adjustment is about twice what it is for CF. Meaning, instead of 4-6 marks between completely in to completely out of tune(cf), rf is very typically about 8-12 marks. This is with MY tuner, but it doesn't vary a whole lot across the board and with similar weights.
The point of my posts of late has been just how simple and easy tuners are to use. I never said it was simple to explain how they work. Lol! That's is a whole, nother (and looong) topic.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Thanks Guys
I appreciate your answers.
I have never tried to adjust the tuners on my rifles once I found what I believed was the best sweet spot, based on shooting groups throughout the range of the tuner. I do intend to do a little twisting going forward. I can tell when my rifles go out of tune so instead of wasting the ammo in the 9 rings, why not try to improve things?
I remember back a ways that friends were working with the Beggs tuner and discovered that they needed to only move it small amounts to keep up with their tune, like minutes on a clock face as temps or DA went up but it needed to be moved.
Wonder why it has taken so long for many of us to understand this? I gave up on tuners on my CF rifles because I didn't want to mess with a learning curve but have one back on my CF rifle again.
Pete
I appreciate your answers.
I have never tried to adjust the tuners on my rifles once I found what I believed was the best sweet spot, based on shooting groups throughout the range of the tuner. I do intend to do a little twisting going forward. I can tell when my rifles go out of tune so instead of wasting the ammo in the 9 rings, why not try to improve things?
I remember back a ways that friends were working with the Beggs tuner and discovered that they needed to only move it small amounts to keep up with their tune, like minutes on a clock face as temps or DA went up but it needed to be moved.
Wonder why it has taken so long for many of us to understand this? I gave up on tuners on my CF rifles because I didn't want to mess with a learning curve but have one back on my CF rifle again.
Pete
G
Ghansen
Guest
I was just having a thought moment that a tuner might work similar to a car wheel balance. If you had something like Gene Beggs' tuner, with one disc altered to have a small tungsten counter balance (to then equal the original weight of the disc) and adjust in a similar manner as intended would that then achieve a counter vibration and bring the barrel/load into harmony?
Mike you may want to jump on this too, seems like this is always tried to be made into something hard. It is really pretty easy. As metal gets warmer it expands and as it cools it contracts so all a tuner does is correct this from the temp that your original load tune was worked up. So if you tuned your load at 60deg and you went to a match and it is 75deg you turn in slightly or if it is 50deg you turn out slightly and you will do this during a match as temps change. Don't try to over engineer something simple. My experience is on 2 of Mike's tuners and a Beggs tuner on a rifle I bought and they both work the same only Mike's is easier with the hash marks.
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
There's more to it than that, but the fact remains...It's very easy to adjust a tuner to maintain tune. That's my whole point.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
That's not what I've found to be the case, but..at the right setting....
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Because there has been too much misinformation out there, for too long.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
One of my issues has been
Where I shoot, by the time one needs to move the tuner, conditions are so bad I have always questioned being able to tell if one was making any progress. What would be great is a chart tied to either temperature or DA, that way some of the question may be alleviated.
Pete
Where I shoot, by the time one needs to move the tuner, conditions are so bad I have always questioned being able to tell if one was making any progress. What would be great is a chart tied to either temperature or DA, that way some of the question may be alleviated.
Pete
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
Been there, done that..or tried. Unfortunately, not with 100% success. I found that I could set a tuner based on temp alone with a pretty good, approx 70% success rate. But, given sighters, what's the point, so I scrapped further testing. It's simply so easy to tune in a few shots, once an initial tune window with the tuner is established, that it's useless information.
That said, particularly for games that are cold bore..no sighters, I encourage people to test your idea of setting by thermometer alone. At the least, it works MOST of the time.
Pete, you're bordering on an area that I don't have the time to type, but is a good question. I'd be happy to discuss what I've found by phone. It's not as simple as only saying...no matter where I go, no matter the humidity...only the temp, and I set my tuner on such and such.
It's never been that simple, whether loading at the range for cf, or carrying different lots of tested rf ammo to a match. But there is a reasonable correlation between temp and tuner setting. I hope you'll call.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
jackie schmidt
New member
I've read all of this thread, and disagree with one statement.
Based on my own experience, shooting in multitudes of Group and Score Matches each year with a fair degree of success, I believe the single best feature of a Tuner is to have some type of dampener built into it.
I use the same technique with Tuners that one of the top Benchrest Shooters in the World uses. His Tuner also features a dampener, or "snubber". I stick with a proven barrel/bullet/load combination, and adjust the Tuner to where the Rifle is shooting as well as it can. I then rarely touch anything on the Rifle. I avoid chasing the tune unless it gets really ragged.
It does seem to work.
Based on my own experience, shooting in multitudes of Group and Score Matches each year with a fair degree of success, I believe the single best feature of a Tuner is to have some type of dampener built into it.
I use the same technique with Tuners that one of the top Benchrest Shooters in the World uses. His Tuner also features a dampener, or "snubber". I stick with a proven barrel/bullet/load combination, and adjust the Tuner to where the Rifle is shooting as well as it can. I then rarely touch anything on the Rifle. I avoid chasing the tune unless it gets really ragged.
It does seem to work.
Jackie. I don't find that to be the case as far as needing some type of dampener built into it. Maybe because you live in Texas and the weather down there has something to do with it working better but up in this neck of the woods, some of the best IBS SR score shooters use tuners that don't. Dean Breeden and his GF Hillary use a Goodling tuner, and Randy Jarvais who uses a Borden tuner, none of those tuners use anything for dampening. Borden's tuner is nothing more than a 4oz screw-on brass weight. What I've read the better tuners are the ones that extend over the muzzle. Don't tell that to Jarvais because he usually kicks every ones ass in the Northeast with his heavy gun. Fact is that I've seen more Goodling tuners on the guy's that I go up against than anybody else's tuners. I have 1 Beggs, 5 Ezells, and 2 Goodling tuners. I just sold my Rimrock with a Borden tuner on it, so I've used 4 different ones in CF so far. Personally I like Mike's tuner the best because I feel that him and his professor friend but a lot of R&D in that tuner, it's so simple to use and if you have any questions about it, Mike's is just a phone call away and he'll help you out with any questions that you might have. The first 2 seasons I didn't use a tuner. The last two I wouldn't go to the line without one, and my game improved ten fold over the first two seasons. IMO a tuner is one of the best investments that I ever could of made.
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jackie schmidt
New member
Jim, I really don't have a dog in this fight because I am not a Gunsmith, and I do not sell Gun related products. I have been known to give away things I fell out of love with
I have tried several different types of tuners and settled on what I am using now. Here is what I will do.
If you have a good barrel that you would not mind trying a little experiment on, send it to me and I will build and install a tuner like I us. You are an experienced shooter, and will give it a good test. I would be real curious as to your findings.
If you find it to be of no value, you can toss it in the corner with the other things that were less than sussessful.
If not you, maybe a friend who has a good barrel that he would be willing to do a little experimenting with.
This one weighs 3.8 ounces. The thread is .900 36 tip, but can be made any diameter.
http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19399&stc=1&d=1494349371
http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19400&stc=1&d=1494349661
How about it. We both might learn something
Attachments
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Jim, I really don't have a dog in this fight because I am not a Gunsmith, and I do not sell Gun related products. I have been known to give away things I fell out of love with
I have tried several different types of tuners and settled on what I am using now. Here is what I will do.
If you have a good barrel that you would not mind trying a little experiment on, send it to me and I will build and install a tuner like I us. You are an experienced shooter, and will give it a good test. I would be real curious as to your findings.
If you find it to be of no value, you can toss it in the corner with the other things that were less than sussessful.
If not you, maybe a friend who has a good barrel that he would be willing to do a little experimenting with.
This one weighs 3.8 ounces. The thread is .900 36 tip, but can be made any diameter.
http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19399&stc=1&d=1494349371
http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19400&stc=1&d=1494349661
How about it. We both might learn something
Jackie. When u have some time to talk, call me. I tried to send you a PM but your box is full. Jim Paganelli 207-860-6110.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Two points I'd like to make...
First, if you go back and re-read my post, I didn't say that a dampening media/aspect has zero value. What I said, is that it's not what makes the magic of a tuner happen. That is based mostly on the fact that you have added a mass to the end of a cantilevered beam. FWIW, I too use a dampening agent..it's just not a rubber band stretched around it. Mine is based on particle dampening. You can go to my site and read a study done at Texas A&M on this technology. It works and vibration analysis proves it...but even it, is not the game changing aspect of a tuner. It is a step in the right direction, though, in tuner design. Another FWIW...is the rubber band tuners are what got my wheels turning and looking into a better, more effective solution
My second point...Jim, take Jackie up on his offer and report back.
Thanks!!--Mike
First, if you go back and re-read my post, I didn't say that a dampening media/aspect has zero value. What I said, is that it's not what makes the magic of a tuner happen. That is based mostly on the fact that you have added a mass to the end of a cantilevered beam. FWIW, I too use a dampening agent..it's just not a rubber band stretched around it. Mine is based on particle dampening. You can go to my site and read a study done at Texas A&M on this technology. It works and vibration analysis proves it...but even it, is not the game changing aspect of a tuner. It is a step in the right direction, though, in tuner design. Another FWIW...is the rubber band tuners are what got my wheels turning and looking into a better, more effective solution
My second point...Jim, take Jackie up on his offer and report back.
Thanks!!--Mike
I did Mike. Sending a barrel out to Jackie tomorrow.
Boyd Allen
Active member
With all due respect, and with the understanding that particle damping does work, if properly designed, the reference to the damping material on Jackie's and Gene's tuners as rubber bands is a cheap and inaccurate shot. Over the years I have done some experimenting with several different tuner designs, and beyond that damping. Back when the ugly convoluted rubber doughnut (otherwise known as the Sims Deresonator) hit the market, I was doing some equipment writing for Shooters News. Seeing that the only model that they offered came with an ID of 5/8" even if it was stretchy, I thought one with a larger hole in the middle would be a good move, so I called Sims and shared that thought. They must have thought that it was a good idea (and/or they already had one in the works) because soon after that, they introduces one that did, and sent me a couple of the early version to play with. About that same time, Jackie was kind enough to make me one of his tuners, which at that time were made of aluminum with no damping rubber. Thanks to a friend with a lathe, the tuner was fitted to a barrel and I did some testing of the tuner, the Deresonator and various configurations with both at the same time. What I found was that the rubber doughnut really damped barrel vibration. It was, and is very obvious. Skipping over the various combinations, what I ended up with was the tuner about two turns out from all the way on, and the doughnut immediately behind the 2" threaded section of the barrel. My impression of the combination was that that barrel shot closer to the wind (meaning that the bullet holes and the flags seemed to be more in agreement) than before, and that that very middle of the pack barrel shot better than it had before despite being on its last legs due to being alligatored in the throat. The result was that I was a beliver in tuners and some sort of damping. Coincidentally, since I did not really have the time to develop an adjustment plan, I found a good spot and left it alone, making what few adjustments that I did (about one a day)with powder charge. Little did I know that some much better shooters would settle on that approach. I was just doing the best that I could with the time and resources that I had. In any case, I do not think that Gene Buckys or Jackie Schmidt tell us about all of their experiments, and I am pretty sure that the stuff that they use in matches has survived testing and is there because it improved the performance of their respective rifles. Looking at how both have shot, I think that dismissing anything that they do might not be the best approach.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
I used the term rubber band generically. It may well be a neoprene band, or some other material in the form of a wide band. I hope this clears up my post for you Boyd.
Even actual rubber comes in millions of durometers (a measure of the 'stiffness' of the material) and that does not even get into energy absorption properties.
We designed an isolation structure to lower the 'noise' on precision crystal oscillators from aircraft vibration.
We discovered significant variation from lot-to-lot in the overall behaviour of every elastic material we tested.
We designed our isolator to allow for adjustments in loading, pre-loading, cross section, length, etc. of the elastic material.
It was one of those products that required vibration testing every time we needed a new batch of elastic.
Off to the Unholtz-Dickie vibration tester.
It is the largest 'speaker' you have ever seen in your life.
With liquid cooled windings.
The largest ones can be used to make setups to vibrate a complete airplane.
By sweeping out a huge range of frequencies we could determine how to 'adjust' the assembly.
We had thought about using magnetic isolation but it would take way to much metal to not cause problems on the aircraft.
We designed an isolation structure to lower the 'noise' on precision crystal oscillators from aircraft vibration.
We discovered significant variation from lot-to-lot in the overall behaviour of every elastic material we tested.
We designed our isolator to allow for adjustments in loading, pre-loading, cross section, length, etc. of the elastic material.
It was one of those products that required vibration testing every time we needed a new batch of elastic.
Off to the Unholtz-Dickie vibration tester.
It is the largest 'speaker' you have ever seen in your life.
With liquid cooled windings.
The largest ones can be used to make setups to vibrate a complete airplane.
By sweeping out a huge range of frequencies we could determine how to 'adjust' the assembly.
We had thought about using magnetic isolation but it would take way to much metal to not cause problems on the aircraft.