The quest for my next scope, frozen, Leopold or just March?

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I have spent some time now hunting for a new scope for my Rimrock, however I am still in doubt over what to chose. Originally I was thinking about Leupold 40x as this is a magnification that I like. However reading several posts it kind of makes me worried if it is worth it or not. OK - the March is more than twice the price, but still - is the Leupold that worse?

Final possibility is of course to get the scope frozen, but with the work on that in addition to the needed mount the cost is getting closer to the March anyhow. And there is no doubt, I guess, that the second hand value of a March is most likely better compared to a used frozen Leupold?

Is there really only one choice these days if one aims for anything more than second page on the result lists? I mean, last Super shot shows that the Leupold scopes still takes its part of the prizes?
 
There is always this question " How well do you NEED to se " ?
 
There is always this question " How well do you NEED to se " ?

The seeing part is easy, it is the holding POI part that is the big program.
When working properly the Weaver is best scope for the money. The Leupolds are guaranteed very well as are the weavers and sightrons. But all too many times theyh are returned to you as sent in because they cannot test for small amounts of movement very well. And a scope that cannot hold a 16th inch at 100 is best used to adorn your mantle as it is useless on a true BR gun. Frozen scopes are another matter all their own. I only ever had one of those a 45 Leupold with the micrometer adjustments adjustments were to coarse and whole setup seemed awkward to me. I had 3 Night Forces and now I have one March and 2 Nightforces and all I can say after using the March for 5 months is How can I scratch the up money for a 2nd March.

They are worth every overpriced penny they cost.

Dick
 
If I had the money......

I have spent some time now hunting for a new scope for my Rimrock, however I am still in doubt over what to chose. Originally I was thinking about Leupold 40x as this is a magnification that I like. However reading several posts it kind of makes me worried if it is worth it or not. OK - the March is more than twice the price, but still - is the Leupold that worse?

Final possibility is of course to get the scope frozen, but with the work on that in addition to the needed mount the cost is getting closer to the March anyhow. And there is no doubt, I guess, that the second hand value of a March is most likely better compared to a used frozen Leupold?

Is there really only one choice these days if one aims for anything more than second page on the result lists? I mean, last Super shot shows that the Leupold scopes still takes its part of the prizes?

I would get a MARCH, without a doubt.
 
The frozen scopes

are not that difficult to deal with, from my experience with them. It's a simple matter of simply dialing the dot or hairs TO the bullet hole and it is truly that simple. Fine adjustments are as easily accomplished. I have 4 frozen setup in 3 magnifications. Personally, the 45 Leup I have but find to be too strongfor 100 Yards. For 2 and 300 it is fine. I think a 40 is the right one or at least it is for me.

Of the two mount systems I have the Brackney is far and away the best setup. It not only looks good but it is easy to use. The TSI is ok but the elevation adjustment is very dificult to use. The maker could improve that by making a Mariner Wheel type screw top for the elevation screw. I have a Mickey Mouse plastic lever I whittled out of a bullet box top which I copied from Steve Stanley. It works but it is Mickey Mouse to the max. I'll be the TSI would be more popular if it had a decent vertical adjuster.

The one thing I don't worry about when using my frozen scopes is them breaking. I find it nice to take one worry away at least. Oh, two of them are 6X scopes. I was a bit concerned about being able to adjust them but it is nearly as simple as the higher power scopes. I use some internal adjustment scopes still but would go totally to frozen if the mounts were more user friendly. I have been marking time waiting for an easier to use mount.
 
Hi Upandcoming.
I got my March 36-55 EP-zoom Scoope right now, it's is a really beaty of course;)
Crystal clear lenses and I hope it works like mine 10-60 x 52BR.

I will tell you soon.

What ever your choise is ? I wish you good luck my Skandinavian friend.
 
I agree with everything that Dick says here. The seeing part with 36x Leopold for example is easy. The scope holding point of aim is the hard part. And worst of that are the small hard to detect movements that will ruin a good aggregate. Having a scope break down properly is not a problem to deal with as you just send them to Leopold and they fix it no questions asked. Its just this doubt that your scope MIGHT be unreliable when you get those fliers which could also be the condition or your self or whatever. I dont own a Mars but if I had the money for it I would probably buy myself a piece of mind by forking out all the far too many pennies needed. But that would not be to get higher magnification or increased clarity (although that might be a bonus) it would just be for garantied holding point of aim.

Hovever for someone new going into benchrest I would rather spend my limited dollars on a good custom actioned rifle and a Weaver Tasco or Leopold than a Mars and lesser rifle. With a rifle that is not accurate enough one will never be competitive even though a Mars is on top of it. On the other hand with an accurate custom actioned rifle and a Weaver one just might.
 
Have We Come Full Circle

Ever since the first shooter sat down at the bench and decidedto shoot small groups, Scopes have been a problem.

Here is a little history.

All through the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's,and part of the 2000's, shooters put up with scopes that might be good,or might not be good. By good, I mean it would hold absolute POA, shot after shot after shot.

Through the years, shooters attempted various fixes, the most popular being the Tucker Conversion for the 36x Leupold. This did prove to be a viable fix, or, as best any one could tell.

Sometime in early 2000, Arnald Jewel designed a rather neat external adjustable mount. It required a internally frozen scope, or a scope with no adjusments to move around.

Nobody was interested in making these for Arnald, so I figured out a way to freeze the internals of a 36x Leupold and Weaver. Quite a few shooters went to this set-up, with good success. Jim Foster started manufacturing the mounts, but gave up on it. I suspect there are about 200 or so floating around.

Then, Gene Bukys came up with the TSI System and his frozen 45x Leupold. This system is absolutly rock solid, although as has been mentioned, is a tad difficult to adjust. But that is a small price to pay for a system that WILL hold POA shot, after shot, after shot. Afterall, that is the primary requirement of a sighting system sitting atop a Benchrest Rifle.

As a note, Gene just won the Benchrest World 2-Gun Championship using his system. That is hard to top.

Bob Brackney then developed a system that is similiar to the originol Jewell, but could use a 30mm tube scope. It has also beconme quite popular. And it works.

For years, shooters petitioned Leupold, and other high end manufacturers, to bring out a scope that would hold POA. I can remember talking to the Leupold Rep at the last Crawfish held in Louisianna. He promised the World, but delivered something else when the 45x Leupold hit the market. The fact was , some Comp Series Leupolds moved. Shooters were not happy.

For years, many of us made statements that we would pay what ever the manufacturers wanted if the would give us a scope that would be worthy of sitting atop a Benchrest Rifle. $1500, $2000, who knew.

March took up the Gauntlet. They said, "hey, these guys say they are willing to pay. Let's do it". (I am paraphrasing).

I have four 50x Marches, I went with them because I wanted the higher magnification, with the guarantee of holding POA, (although my frozen 36x Leupolds in my Jewell mounts did that). I think the 50x March leaves a little on the table when it come to the glass, it sure isn't as good as the 45x Leupold, or the 40x March. But I live with it. If March would trade my four 50x scopes for 40's, I would do it right now.

My good friend Gene Bukys reminds me on occasion that I am yet to have as good a season shooting the Marches as I did my frozen 36x Leupold and Jewell Mounts.

But at least March has given us what we demanded. A high end scope that makes its number one priority holding POA. It even says so in their advertisments. As far as I know, they are the only manufacturer that states specifically in their ads that the primary reason fo owning a March is the faith that it will do just that. HOLD POA.

I have taken apart every popular scope intended for Benchrest. I know the internal flaws with each brand, and I know what goes wrong.

I have not taken a March apart. They say you can't because every thing is "glued", and you would have to destroy a lot of parts in the proccess.. And, I have no reason to. I will let someone else do that.

Have there been any provable failings of the March Scope?? I have no first hand knowledge of it, (only second hand), so, untill I do, I will not comment..........jackie
 
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Much appreciated Bullen. Looking forward to hear the results from your testing of the scope. You know where to reach me.


Jackie - thanks a lot for that story. Kind of what I expected, however I am not sure, still, if it was what I hoped for as I guess a clear answer to my quest might not be an easy task to fulfill? As you said the frozen ones will hold POA (assumed a proper job done with them) hence it might still be my choice this time. I shot nothing but groups and adjusting could be learnt after all? Nevertheless, the March continue to dig deeper and deeper into my brain...
 
A few years back, I thought that there had to be something wrong with every scope I owned, mainly because there was so much posted about it right here. Once I found a barrel company and combination that worked for me, I realized that I had better learn to shoot, and stop blaming my equipment for the flyers and poor aggs. I realized that I had two perfectly fine LCS scopes that would deliver the goods if I had my head screwed on right. I still fail at that part more often than not, but my scopes are just fine. There is no more consistent shooter than Tony Boyer, I hope we all can agree on that. Don't you just have to ask yourself why he continually goes to the line with unmodified Leupolds and kicks the crap out of everyone? JMHO
 
There is no more consistent shooter than Tony Boyer, I hope we all can agree on that. Don't you just have to ask yourself why he continually goes to the line with unmodified Leupolds and kicks the crap out of everyone? JMHO

That is a very interesting observation.
 
Leupold 45x LCS

Don't you just have to ask yourself why he continually goes to the line with unmodified Leupolds and kicks the crap out of everyone? JMHO

I wonder if TB gets the same 45x LCS's Leupold sells to the average Joe?:)
 
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Personally I would

buy a Weaver, have it fixed, and buy external mounts for it. It will cost about the same as a unmodified Leupold.

Have 2 Weavers done and you are still cheaper than a March.

I would LOVE to have a MARCH. The problem is by time I ever got one of those up to Canada it would probably cost me over 3000.00 CDN.

Maybe, just maybe when I get thru with my seperation and have a bit of money left over that may be the PERFECT gift for getting out.......:(:D:D

Calvin
 
I had never owned a Leupold until I bought my Rem. XR-100 recently; with the Leupold FX-111 12x40 mounted on it. My first objective was to see how the rifle would perform. I wasn't particularly concerned about the scope because I figured I could replace it if, for any reason, I found it unaccceptable. I do have a Weaver and a Sightron that I could have replaced it with if necessary.
The rifle performs beautifully, and after the first twenty five rounds hit the target within 1/16 inch of each other (that's one enlarged hole of five rounds on each of five targets) I am perfectly pleased with the rifle AND the scope.
I can't afford a collection of the higher end scopes and, as of this moment in time, I'm satisfied with what I'm using. The Leupold is welcome at my shooting bench any day.
 
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I would amagine every scope manufacturer's hope is that every shooter thinks that way........jackie

We aren't talking about ALL scope manufacturers, nor all scopes. We are talking about a select few scopes, those used by Benchrest competitors. I'm not saying that there aren't bad scopes out there, just that the number of them is far less than whats' inflated on this forum.
 
Something to add. I'm another new guy. A very good shooter and all around nice guy is going to lend me a Leupold 45X and rings. Will report.
I have a B&L 36X. With a Bulzeye 4X magnifier. It's working. :)
At the MI Sate shoot in Holton. I was talking to 3 very good shooters(I like to pick their brains. Too much info is good...)
They all went back to Leupold 40X. Might be for the conditions......Maybe...
I was told clarity. They missed the clarity.
 
I'm very much in agreement with Hal Drake on this scope "wandering" issue. There are only a very very few benchrest scopes, Weaver T's, Leupold 36 & 36D's, Leupold Competition Series, Sightrons, that would have a problem that is detectable to the average benchrest shooter. Meaning, the average benchrest shooter will not be in tune enough to detect these stated small wanderings.

Like the "dreaded donut", this subject is grossly overblown. At this years Super Shoot I shot on the same rotation as Tony Boyer. He was setting his equipment on the bench each time as I was taking mine off. He was using an unaltered Leupold Competition scope. Tony won the Super Shoot using a plain-Jane Leupold Competition scope. To say that was why he won because of that scope can never be proven.

Gene Buckys won the WBC using a locked scope. To say he won the WBC because of the locked-up scope can never be proven. Both Tony and Gene won because they put an extreme amount of effort into the sport, not because of the scope.

I think it was Joe Krupa, recently, that ran some tests of scope wanderings with a rail gun. I've seen this test done before. A good scope will wander just from the heating up and cooling off whether it is locked or not.

This is not to say that a scope can't break. I had a scope go bad one time but it wasn't small wanderings. It walked all the way from the mothball to the targets outer ring just as a locked-up scope did on the bench immediately to my left did at this years Shamrock when the windage screw on the lock-up base came loose.

There are too many other things to concentrate on than minute wanderings of the scope.
 
Hal

A very well known and successful shooter told me years ago that he believed there was .020 shift, on the target, built into every scope. I did not believe this untill I started taking them apart, and seeing how they were constructed, and what can cause POA shift.

If you have a good scope,that is great. If you do not, life can be filled with grief........jackie
 
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