V
Vibe
Guest
Mathematically it's
6!+5!+4!+3!+2!+1
0r
(6*5*4*3*2*1)+(5*4*3*2*1)+(4*3*2*1)+(3*2*1)+(2*1)+1
- Status
6!+5!+4!+3!+2!+1
0r
(6*5*4*3*2*1)+(5*4*3*2*1)+(4*3*2*1)+(3*2*1)+(2*1)+1
J
J. Pendergraft
Guest
The aluminum tube will always be cooler than the barrel thus this will offset the expansion difference. We have to make sure we have sufficient contact between the barrel and the tube to get the right amount of heat transfer so the tube and the barrel grow in length at approx. the same rate.
The Belleville washers may be of benefit if you are going to fire a lot of rounds and really heat the barrel. I have a 6.5x55 Ackley F Class gun that I used a tube tensioned with Belleville washers. I tested firing 24 rounds at what I thought would be the fastest one would be able to fire in match conditions. The group was quite round and did not give the appearance tension was changing to the point of effecting grouping.
D
DOUG MILLER
Guest
Combinations
Ryan/Vibe:
I think the correct answer is 30 combinations (29, if the 1/2 oz weight must be on the end). Let me explain. It has been a long time since I took Math 101, so correct me if I have misunderstood your use of factorials for the arrangement of weights on the tuner. My recollection is a factorial would be used to compute the ordering of elements giving you a unique string. In this case, the order of the weights (the rearranging of the weights along the string) is not important, unless they interact differently with the vibration of the barrel, which we all hope is not the case. Ammo is expensive enough, not to have to try hundreds of combinations to find the "parallel node".
I believe, in this case, we were given 6 weights ranging from 1/2 oz. to 5 oz. (six weights total), and the 1/2 oz. weight must be used at the end of the string of weights.
The sum of the weights adds up to 15 1/2 ounces.
Long and short of it is, if you can configure the weights from 1/2 to 15 1/2 ounces, in increments of 1/2 ounce. that gives 29 combinations. I believe, in this case, you are looking for the optimal aggregate weight added to the tuner, and the order in which the weights are placed on the tuner does not matter.
The use of a Factorial analysis such as 6! (6 x 5 x etc) would yield 720 combinations, if you used all 6 weights, and if you were looking to define the unique combinations within a string. It is also true you could arrange the weights in the sum of the factorials from 6! to 1!. My question is why would you?
If we found 8.5 ounces were the optimal weight, would rearranging the order of the 5, 3, and 1/2 ounce weights, effect the "parallel node"?
My fond recollection for the use, and application of factorials, is mostly associated with my gambling days in Vegas, and playing Yahtzee on rainy days in the country.
Again, it has been a very long time since I played with combinations and permutations, so kindly bring me up to speed, if I missed the point.
BTW: This has been quite a thread. Back to school and back to the range. You have all added a great deal to the discussion. Thanks and hoping this device really works miracles! Good shooting to you. Doug
Ryan/Vibe:
I think the correct answer is 30 combinations (29, if the 1/2 oz weight must be on the end). Let me explain. It has been a long time since I took Math 101, so correct me if I have misunderstood your use of factorials for the arrangement of weights on the tuner. My recollection is a factorial would be used to compute the ordering of elements giving you a unique string. In this case, the order of the weights (the rearranging of the weights along the string) is not important, unless they interact differently with the vibration of the barrel, which we all hope is not the case. Ammo is expensive enough, not to have to try hundreds of combinations to find the "parallel node".
I believe, in this case, we were given 6 weights ranging from 1/2 oz. to 5 oz. (six weights total), and the 1/2 oz. weight must be used at the end of the string of weights.
The sum of the weights adds up to 15 1/2 ounces.
Long and short of it is, if you can configure the weights from 1/2 to 15 1/2 ounces, in increments of 1/2 ounce. that gives 29 combinations. I believe, in this case, you are looking for the optimal aggregate weight added to the tuner, and the order in which the weights are placed on the tuner does not matter.
The use of a Factorial analysis such as 6! (6 x 5 x etc) would yield 720 combinations, if you used all 6 weights, and if you were looking to define the unique combinations within a string. It is also true you could arrange the weights in the sum of the factorials from 6! to 1!. My question is why would you?
If we found 8.5 ounces were the optimal weight, would rearranging the order of the 5, 3, and 1/2 ounce weights, effect the "parallel node"?
My fond recollection for the use, and application of factorials, is mostly associated with my gambling days in Vegas, and playing Yahtzee on rainy days in the country.
Again, it has been a very long time since I played with combinations and permutations, so kindly bring me up to speed, if I missed the point.
BTW: This has been quite a thread. Back to school and back to the range. You have all added a great deal to the discussion. Thanks and hoping this device really works miracles! Good shooting to you. Doug
V
Vibe
Guest
I wasn't really thinking so much of the heat from the barrel so much as I was considering temp changes during a match or a season.
V
Vibe
Guest
Doug
In this case we will be looking for a unique string it seems, as some of the weights are steel and some aluminum, and the addition of a 3 oz steel weight will change the reactive moment quite differently than the addition of a 3 oz aluminum weight. In fact, as it turns out, the addition of a 2 oz aluminum weight should change the reaction moment more than the 3 oz steel weight will. I'm not sure I can totally get behind that notion, even though the calculations are quite clear on it. Only the firing line tests will be able to prove or disprove the theory.
D
DOUG MILLER
Guest
Those mind boggling combinations
Vibe:
Unless we wish to push the value of the English Pound (buying Eley) and the Euro (buying Lapua: I think the Finns use the Euro) out of sight, I hope there aren't unique interactions between the steel and the aluminum. Oh, let's toss in some more weight to the Euro (RWS / Wolf are Teutonic products).
Testing through all those permutations would be a life long effort, unless one plans to shoot one shot groups !! And then it would take a month of good weather and perfect conditions.
Darn, we don't need just Factorials, we need Integral Calculus, Differential Calculus, harmonic oscillation functions, metallurgic analysis, and a whole slue of fancy algorithms running on a super computer to bring this analysis to a finite end.
Keep up the interesting posts, and let's hope this device is easier to use than it is to analyze. Hate to see it relegated to "off the range folklore".
Doug
Vibe:
Unless we wish to push the value of the English Pound (buying Eley) and the Euro (buying Lapua: I think the Finns use the Euro) out of sight, I hope there aren't unique interactions between the steel and the aluminum. Oh, let's toss in some more weight to the Euro (RWS / Wolf are Teutonic products).
Testing through all those permutations would be a life long effort, unless one plans to shoot one shot groups !! And then it would take a month of good weather and perfect conditions.
Darn, we don't need just Factorials, we need Integral Calculus, Differential Calculus, harmonic oscillation functions, metallurgic analysis, and a whole slue of fancy algorithms running on a super computer to bring this analysis to a finite end.
Keep up the interesting posts, and let's hope this device is easier to use than it is to analyze. Hate to see it relegated to "off the range folklore".
Doug
R
RLHBUSL
Guest
Doug,
Admittedly, I do not understand the physics of what is happening with the tuner and the addition of different weights made of different materials. My post was simply to address Mr. Calfee's statement that "Using the 6 weights Roger supplies in his Harrell's kit, 3 aluminum and 3 steel, Mike has already came up with 400 combinations and counting."
Ryan
Admittedly, I do not understand the physics of what is happening with the tuner and the addition of different weights made of different materials. My post was simply to address Mr. Calfee's statement that "Using the 6 weights Roger supplies in his Harrell's kit, 3 aluminum and 3 steel, Mike has already came up with 400 combinations and counting."
Ryan
D
DOUG MILLER
Guest
Combinations
Ryan,
Agreed. This whole subject has been hard to follow. My educated guess is that, absent extremely high speed cameras and other sophisticated equipment, we may never know really what is going on, except by inference. Let's face it, 99% of what has been invented in the precision shooting game has come from great intuitions, hard work, excellent craftsmanship, and a bunch of excellent shooters who test each and every new idea. It is the great fortune of all the shooters, people like Mr. Calfee are willing to provide their intuition, experience, hard work, and excellence of workmanship to find out what does and what does not work.
Great thread, and I have sincerely enjoyed your posts. Doug
Ryan,
Agreed. This whole subject has been hard to follow. My educated guess is that, absent extremely high speed cameras and other sophisticated equipment, we may never know really what is going on, except by inference. Let's face it, 99% of what has been invented in the precision shooting game has come from great intuitions, hard work, excellent craftsmanship, and a bunch of excellent shooters who test each and every new idea. It is the great fortune of all the shooters, people like Mr. Calfee are willing to provide their intuition, experience, hard work, and excellence of workmanship to find out what does and what does not work.
Great thread, and I have sincerely enjoyed your posts. Doug
Joe Friedrich
Member
Doug, your last sentence in your paragraph i could not agree more. This is a interesting post with good information, at least for myself. Doug we have a tendency to over analyze some more than others. I have found this weight system easy to use, you keep good notes on the changes being done, and its fun.
Bill, the spool idea would be interesting and hope Roger will find the time to get it done.
The possibilities could be endless with one's imagination, and I just want to say Thank You to those that are willing to share their findings, and knowledge.
Joe
Bill, the spool idea would be interesting and hope Roger will find the time to get it done.
The possibilities could be endless with one's imagination, and I just want to say Thank You to those that are willing to share their findings, and knowledge.
Joe
K
Kathy
Guest
Friend Joe Friedrich and Valmet al
Friend Joseph:
Talked to Roger today....he's on the same page about the spool.....it may not amount to anything, bet he's going to try...
Friend Valmet al: I do not post on your threads, never have, never will.......my friend, I do not wish to hurt your feelings, or offend you in any way, I want you to understand that, please, I would never hurt anyone's feelings for anything in the world but my friend, we have very important work to do here.......so please!
Your friend, Bill Calfee
Friend Joseph:
Talked to Roger today....he's on the same page about the spool.....it may not amount to anything, bet he's going to try...
Friend Valmet al: I do not post on your threads, never have, never will.......my friend, I do not wish to hurt your feelings, or offend you in any way, I want you to understand that, please, I would never hurt anyone's feelings for anything in the world but my friend, we have very important work to do here.......so please!
Your friend, Bill Calfee
K
Kathy
Guest
Friend Varmint Al
Friend Varmint Al:
I owe you an apology.....JUst read my last post.....Your name is Varmint AL.....sorry, I spelled it wrong...sorry again my friend........when you have a name as silly as "Calfee: it's easy to get confused.....sorry again my friend.....
Your friend, Bill Calfee
Friend Varmint Al:
I owe you an apology.....JUst read my last post.....Your name is Varmint AL.....sorry, I spelled it wrong...sorry again my friend........when you have a name as silly as "Calfee: it's easy to get confused.....sorry again my friend.....
Your friend, Bill Calfee
Butch Lambert
Active member
Bill,
I am one of your biggest supporters, but that post to Varmint Al was just wrong!
Butch
I am one of your biggest supporters, but that post to Varmint Al was just wrong!
Butch
Kent Owens
Well-known member
Varmint Al,
Try 13 ozs. of tuner weight on that reverse taper barrel and see how it does. Seems to work.
Try 13 ozs. of tuner weight on that reverse taper barrel and see how it does. Seems to work.
P
primerate2
Guest
The conversations here are most interesting
In the mid 1950's my Dad, who was a highly ranked 22 RF prone shooter started working with barrel vibrations. He won match after match and when he talked about vibrations most other shooters thought he was crazy. There is an article in a 1993 issue of PS about him and some of the work he had done. I believe it was 1973 or 74 when he filed a pattent on a tuner. I know he fired over 350,000 rounds of mostly Eley 10X testing many many variations of ways to manage vibrations in a rifle barrel. Before he passed away in 1994 I was able to arrange a grant from the state along with a large contribution from my self to have an engeenering department at a major university, study and test vibrations in a rifle. The professor that headed up the study had been sucessfull in stopping vibrations in British torpedos and he knew a lot about the general subject of vibrations. We suspended a 54 Anschutz , attached a device to the receiver that would shock the receiver to simulate a cartarage explosion. This shock caused the rifle to vibrate as though it had been fired. There was a pesiod sencer screwed into the barrel at the muzzle which measured the movements caused by the vibretions. The sencer fed into a computer that was running on software that produced a vibration pattern. We also had dials that identified the frequencies of the vibrations and another one that measured the volosity of the vibrations. Now, with all that said we were able to test various tuners and other methods of effecting barrel and rifle vibrations. We also located the nodes and moved them by adjusting the various devices.
Here are a few things we learned
1. Nodes can be moved and vibration patterns can be changed by not only "tuning" at the muzzle but also by tuning along the barrel and tuning a freefloating receiver.
2. The high frequencies caused more movements than did the low frequencies.
3. We could reduce high frequencies with various devices and means thus focusing on a single frequency.
4. The use of adding mass to the muzzle or adding mass to the barrel in a manor that changes the vibrations favorably is called a passive damping method.
5. We identified a active method of dampting vibrations know as non obstructive particle damping (NOPD). In my opnion this mathod will far exceed and passive methods of adding mass to a barrel.
6. The method of a muzzle tuner does work but heat will change the tune. Copper build up will change the vibrations and thus the tune. Constant tuning and adjusting is required. NOPD is not effected by heat or barrel conditions.
I thought it was interesting that Brownings pattent on a BOSS was filed only four monthys following the expiry of Dads patent.
This subject is fasinating to me and I can't tell you guys how much I apperciate you reconizing the imporntantance of vibrations in rifles and their effect on accuracy. Keep up the good work. If I can help any one by passing on some information I would be most happy to do so.
Ken Recker Jr.
pls excuse the spelling
In the mid 1950's my Dad, who was a highly ranked 22 RF prone shooter started working with barrel vibrations. He won match after match and when he talked about vibrations most other shooters thought he was crazy. There is an article in a 1993 issue of PS about him and some of the work he had done. I believe it was 1973 or 74 when he filed a pattent on a tuner. I know he fired over 350,000 rounds of mostly Eley 10X testing many many variations of ways to manage vibrations in a rifle barrel. Before he passed away in 1994 I was able to arrange a grant from the state along with a large contribution from my self to have an engeenering department at a major university, study and test vibrations in a rifle. The professor that headed up the study had been sucessfull in stopping vibrations in British torpedos and he knew a lot about the general subject of vibrations. We suspended a 54 Anschutz , attached a device to the receiver that would shock the receiver to simulate a cartarage explosion. This shock caused the rifle to vibrate as though it had been fired. There was a pesiod sencer screwed into the barrel at the muzzle which measured the movements caused by the vibretions. The sencer fed into a computer that was running on software that produced a vibration pattern. We also had dials that identified the frequencies of the vibrations and another one that measured the volosity of the vibrations. Now, with all that said we were able to test various tuners and other methods of effecting barrel and rifle vibrations. We also located the nodes and moved them by adjusting the various devices.
Here are a few things we learned
1. Nodes can be moved and vibration patterns can be changed by not only "tuning" at the muzzle but also by tuning along the barrel and tuning a freefloating receiver.
2. The high frequencies caused more movements than did the low frequencies.
3. We could reduce high frequencies with various devices and means thus focusing on a single frequency.
4. The use of adding mass to the muzzle or adding mass to the barrel in a manor that changes the vibrations favorably is called a passive damping method.
5. We identified a active method of dampting vibrations know as non obstructive particle damping (NOPD). In my opnion this mathod will far exceed and passive methods of adding mass to a barrel.
6. The method of a muzzle tuner does work but heat will change the tune. Copper build up will change the vibrations and thus the tune. Constant tuning and adjusting is required. NOPD is not effected by heat or barrel conditions.
I thought it was interesting that Brownings pattent on a BOSS was filed only four monthys following the expiry of Dads patent.
This subject is fasinating to me and I can't tell you guys how much I apperciate you reconizing the imporntantance of vibrations in rifles and their effect on accuracy. Keep up the good work. If I can help any one by passing on some information I would be most happy to do so.
Ken Recker Jr.
pls excuse the spelling
Attachments
P
Patriot
Guest
If you tune a CF rifle by adjusting the load to find the sweet spot, is a tuner needed?
Mark
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V
Vibe
Guest
I have to agree. Bill your intuition is right on the money, but it does need to remain flexible and accept the help offered by those that can supply the supporting science to get it refined into a successful working model.
V
Vibe
Guest
But how did you simulate the Bourdon Tube effect of the barrel straightening out under the influence of high pressure? This is what I see as the major driving force in the barrel movements under discussion. I don't see where an impact of any kind would simulate this.
Is there somewhere we might view the resulting data?
I would be interested in seeing more info on that device/method. Sounds similar to magnetic particle torque drives.
I've always thought that the Browning "patent" was filed on "existing art" and should have been held as invalid - which would have resulted in the Que attachment system being more available. Sometimes I guess one can "buy" a patent. (And I'm not talking about purchasing it from a valid inventor.)
This is Bill's Playhouse
Another priceless quote from everybody's friend. Bill thinks this is his playground, and if you don't want to play the way he wants you to (i.e. if you don't agree with him), then he wants you to go away.
Keep up the fine work, Varmint Al.
SteveM.
Another priceless quote from everybody's friend. Bill thinks this is his playground, and if you don't want to play the way he wants you to (i.e. if you don't agree with him), then he wants you to go away.
Keep up the fine work, Varmint Al.
SteveM.
P
pacecil
Guest
To vibe....
Vibe said, But how did you simulate the Bourdon Tube effect of the barrel straightening out under the influence of high pressure? This is what I see as the major driving force in the barrel movements under discussion. I don't see where an impact of any kind would simulate this.
I may be wrong on this but I think a Bourdon tube must be flattened slightly to make it straighten out. (Barrels do flatten slightly as they droop but this would be insignificant.) Also, I think the effect, if it was there, would be very small and would not be the driving force in barrel vibrations. As stated many times before - it's the recoil effect, the inertia effect of bullet mass, and minor "sound" effects that causes vibration.
Vibe said, But how did you simulate the Bourdon Tube effect of the barrel straightening out under the influence of high pressure? This is what I see as the major driving force in the barrel movements under discussion. I don't see where an impact of any kind would simulate this.
I may be wrong on this but I think a Bourdon tube must be flattened slightly to make it straighten out. (Barrels do flatten slightly as they droop but this would be insignificant.) Also, I think the effect, if it was there, would be very small and would not be the driving force in barrel vibrations. As stated many times before - it's the recoil effect, the inertia effect of bullet mass, and minor "sound" effects that causes vibration.
D
Don
Guest
"Generally speaking, Non-Obstructive Particle Damping ("NOPD") is a form of damping in which particles of various materials collide with both one another and with the structure in which the particles are located, exchanging momentum and converting vibration energy to heat via friction between the particles. Thus, energy dissipation occurs due to both frictional losses (i.e., when the particles either rub against each other or against the structure) and inelastic particle-to-particle collisions. In contrast to the viscoelastic materials, which dissipate the stored elastic energy, NOPD focuses on energy dissipation by a combination of collision, friction and shear damping. NOPD further involves energy absorption and dissipation through momentum exchange between both the moving particles and vibrating walls, as well as friction, impact restitution and shear deformation. "
My experience is that NOPD has no application in the vary fast duration firing event of a firearm, that usually takes place in 2 milliseconds or less. NOPD requires massive cycling to have any noticable damping affect.
NOPD is most usefull for long duration dynamic vibration damping used for sound and structural vibration reduction in automobile and aircraft components that are excited for long duration cycles that last for hour time frames................................Don
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