That first barrel
- Thread starter Pete Wass
- Start date
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
The platform between the ears perhaps.
jackie schmidt
New member
Stick around this game long enough, and you will see shooters come on the scene, have a Rifle built, set the world on fire, use that barrel up, get another one just like it, and can't make two bullets touch. Discouragement sets in, and they are never seen again.
I have ALWAYS stressed the importance of great barrels, great bullets, and a great tune. In 15 years, I have probably had three, maybe four, barrels that simply amazed me. I road them, set them back as many times as I could, untill they simply died. One was the very first Unlimited Barrel I had. Another was a HV I had back in 2001 through 2002. I had a great Sporter barrel that I used for almost three years, all the way untill 2008, I have not had one to match it since, and I have been trying. Then, there is the 30 caliber barrel on my 30BR HV.
Nothing is more dicouraging that screwing on a new barrel, get it to the range, and it just does not seem to want to come around. You even takeit to a match, and it desides to spit a coupleof shots against the condition, or up, down and around, leaving you to start doubting everything, your bench technique, your bags, your loading equipment, eveything except the reality that the barrel is just not going to cut it.
Shooters are just fooling themselves if they think all barrels are equal. Sure, if you have enough time money, bullets and powder, any custom barrel might shoot at a championship level. But, most shooters do not have 5 different brands of bullets, or different lots of powder, and certainly not the countless hours at the range to find what each barrel will like. That is why most will look for barrels that will shoot what they have.
Some of the top shooters do exactly that. They have a specific bullet and powder combo they know will shoot. They get as many barrels as they can afford, and find the few that likes that combo and will carry them through the year.
The same can be said for bullets. Stories are floating around right now about how several popular bullets that have been really great are suddenly just good. (remember when good was good enough). Bullet makers are at the mercy of their supplyers, just like every one else. That is why most top shooters buy bullets by the 10,000, with the hopes that the 10,000 they get will be upto the task. If you are buying your bullets 500 at a time at random from a dealer, you are probably not setting the world on fire.
Shooters get all worked up about barrels, but bullets are just as important. I see shooters throw over a thousand good bullets down a mediocre barrel, trying to get it to shoot, when they would have been better off tossing that barrel, and not wasting a thousand good bullets.
Haven't all of you ever wondered why at any given match, 75 percent of the shooters are NOT shooting Rifles that are competitive.
I will give you the best example of what it takes from first hand observation. Gene Bukys is the current World Champion, has set records, and is always at the top. But, I see him at the range on a regular basis, with new barrels, even new Rifles, trying to stay that way. The dedication to the effort he puts forth is simply not within the scope of most shooters. Plus,he is pretty good at this game.
It's a tough game, and I can only see it getting tougher. I am on a campain to entice as many shooters as possible into Benchrest. But, I never sugar coat the realities of what we are doing. Always remember, there are only a few things that will cause a bullet to take the exact same path as the one before, but about a billion things that will cause it not too........jackie
I have ALWAYS stressed the importance of great barrels, great bullets, and a great tune. In 15 years, I have probably had three, maybe four, barrels that simply amazed me. I road them, set them back as many times as I could, untill they simply died. One was the very first Unlimited Barrel I had. Another was a HV I had back in 2001 through 2002. I had a great Sporter barrel that I used for almost three years, all the way untill 2008, I have not had one to match it since, and I have been trying. Then, there is the 30 caliber barrel on my 30BR HV.
Nothing is more dicouraging that screwing on a new barrel, get it to the range, and it just does not seem to want to come around. You even takeit to a match, and it desides to spit a coupleof shots against the condition, or up, down and around, leaving you to start doubting everything, your bench technique, your bags, your loading equipment, eveything except the reality that the barrel is just not going to cut it.
Shooters are just fooling themselves if they think all barrels are equal. Sure, if you have enough time money, bullets and powder, any custom barrel might shoot at a championship level. But, most shooters do not have 5 different brands of bullets, or different lots of powder, and certainly not the countless hours at the range to find what each barrel will like. That is why most will look for barrels that will shoot what they have.
Some of the top shooters do exactly that. They have a specific bullet and powder combo they know will shoot. They get as many barrels as they can afford, and find the few that likes that combo and will carry them through the year.
The same can be said for bullets. Stories are floating around right now about how several popular bullets that have been really great are suddenly just good. (remember when good was good enough). Bullet makers are at the mercy of their supplyers, just like every one else. That is why most top shooters buy bullets by the 10,000, with the hopes that the 10,000 they get will be upto the task. If you are buying your bullets 500 at a time at random from a dealer, you are probably not setting the world on fire.
Shooters get all worked up about barrels, but bullets are just as important. I see shooters throw over a thousand good bullets down a mediocre barrel, trying to get it to shoot, when they would have been better off tossing that barrel, and not wasting a thousand good bullets.
Haven't all of you ever wondered why at any given match, 75 percent of the shooters are NOT shooting Rifles that are competitive.
I will give you the best example of what it takes from first hand observation. Gene Bukys is the current World Champion, has set records, and is always at the top. But, I see him at the range on a regular basis, with new barrels, even new Rifles, trying to stay that way. The dedication to the effort he puts forth is simply not within the scope of most shooters. Plus,he is pretty good at this game.
It's a tough game, and I can only see it getting tougher. I am on a campain to entice as many shooters as possible into Benchrest. But, I never sugar coat the realities of what we are doing. Always remember, there are only a few things that will cause a bullet to take the exact same path as the one before, but about a billion things that will cause it not too........jackie
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G
greg
Guest
Pete, sometimes seems that way. BUT, my first barrel was a great one but I had a brand new Weaver 36 that help POA very well. Sometime after I screwed on my second barrel the scope began to fail. Needless to say I blamed the barrel at first but alas it was the glass.
I had that weaver converted by Tucker. Remember the early June 2 day in VT 6 years ago? That had the Tucker Weaver on it. Then that thing went TA. Nothing finally worked well until I had a Leup Comp frozen and put in Brackney rings. The current new Shilen 1-15 I have on the gun would not shoot a particular brand of bullets...at all. I changed to Parkers 116's and the gun began to sing a sweet melody. Its usually some combination of bullets, barrels(like JSchmidt said above) and scopes. Fool with those and seating depth or tuner settings and you should figure out if the barrel is a good one pretty fast.
Regarding barrels, I was reading an online article recently and the writer emphasized the importance of uniformly formed lands and groovs...height, width, etc. Perhaps that is one of the keys to a great barrel??
I had that weaver converted by Tucker. Remember the early June 2 day in VT 6 years ago? That had the Tucker Weaver on it. Then that thing went TA. Nothing finally worked well until I had a Leup Comp frozen and put in Brackney rings. The current new Shilen 1-15 I have on the gun would not shoot a particular brand of bullets...at all. I changed to Parkers 116's and the gun began to sing a sweet melody. Its usually some combination of bullets, barrels(like JSchmidt said above) and scopes. Fool with those and seating depth or tuner settings and you should figure out if the barrel is a good one pretty fast.
Regarding barrels, I was reading an online article recently and the writer emphasized the importance of uniformly formed lands and groovs...height, width, etc. Perhaps that is one of the keys to a great barrel??
A
abintx
Guest
Jackie ...
Don't forget [in addition to the dedication and the time] the other reality ... having the financial means ... to purchase the large quantities of bullets and barrels mentioned above. Large quantities of the same lot of powder could also be added. To be frank, no matter how it's presented ... deep pockets don't hurt.
Don't forget [in addition to the dedication and the time] the other reality ... having the financial means ... to purchase the large quantities of bullets and barrels mentioned above. Large quantities of the same lot of powder could also be added. To be frank, no matter how it's presented ... deep pockets don't hurt.
J
jo191145
Guest
Could it be the shooter is applying the hard learned lessons from the first barrel unto the second barrel. Perhaps barrel two has its own lessons/rules it would like to abide by instead.
Just a thought from a guy who's definately not setting the world on fire
Just a thought from a guy who's definately not setting the world on fire
M
mks
Guest
Jackie,
I found this comment very interesting, mostly because it runs counter to much of the advice that one reads on this forum that emphasizes the importance of reading the wind. The consensus seems to be that an excellent wind reader can often win with a decent rifle, but a so-so wind reader will on average not win even with a great rifle. Of course it depends on how much wind and how variable it is, but for the average match, do you think the rifle is more important than the wind reading? In other words, should a middle-of-the-pack shooter focus more on tweaking and tuning his rifle than practicing in the wind? Are those unexplained flyers, do you think, more often an indication of poor rifle accuracy rather than poor gun handling skills or "missing the switch?"
Cheers,
Keith
jackie schmidt
New member
Keith, I catch a lot of flak from my fellow shooters over this, but yes, I think it all begins with the Rifle. You are no better than the Rifle, period. A lot of shooters never grasp this because they have never had the privelege to go to the line with a really great Rifle.
I hear shooters standing at the "wailing wall" lamenting about missing conditions, when in reality, the group shows that the Rifle simply is not working. That is the most difficult thing for most shooters to admitt, that their Rifle just won't cut it. Why?? because then you have to figure out how to fix it. And that ain't easy.
I still stand by my premis that at any given match, 75 percent of the Rifles are not in a good enough tune to win. I have seen nothing in the past couple of years to change my mind on this.........jackie
I hear shooters standing at the "wailing wall" lamenting about missing conditions, when in reality, the group shows that the Rifle simply is not working. That is the most difficult thing for most shooters to admitt, that their Rifle just won't cut it. Why?? because then you have to figure out how to fix it. And that ain't easy.
I still stand by my premis that at any given match, 75 percent of the Rifles are not in a good enough tune to win. I have seen nothing in the past couple of years to change my mind on this.........jackie
Jackie very well said and I admire your total honesty knowing that some will not appreciate your comment.
In my experience over the years shooting another discipline of which I take very seriously I have spent allot of time and energy on my Rifle and the myriad of things that make it shoot exceptionally well of which are beyond my expectations so the bottom line is at times it is all about the nut behind the gun yet I still have a hard time admitting it.
J.Louis
In my experience over the years shooting another discipline of which I take very seriously I have spent allot of time and energy on my Rifle and the myriad of things that make it shoot exceptionally well of which are beyond my expectations so the bottom line is at times it is all about the nut behind the gun yet I still have a hard time admitting it.
J.Louis
Pete Wass
Well-known member
I agree with Jackie on the tune thing. Even though this is a Head Game, to some extent, if the rifle won't drive all of it's bullets into the same small hole, one has NO CHANCE of winning. I think a lot of people mis-read groups, calling them a Weather Report, not realizing that barrels print horizontal groups. Once a person learns how to read windflags their blame to the wind should deminish sugnificantly.
Vern
Morethan1waytoskinacat
Pete,
I would ask this follow up question in all sincerity.
If and I can agree that the 2nd and 3rd barrels dont shoot as well as the first.... then what about any other subsequent barrel?
If so that would lead me to believe that something happened to the action at some point in the transition from barrel 1 to barrel 2 and was permanently damaged at least until the issue is discovered.
I have often wondered about the torquing we do to an action taking barrels on and off.
Or are we saying that the first barrel was a good barrel and that it may just take a lot of them to find another?
I would ask this follow up question in all sincerity.
If and I can agree that the 2nd and 3rd barrels dont shoot as well as the first.... then what about any other subsequent barrel?
If so that would lead me to believe that something happened to the action at some point in the transition from barrel 1 to barrel 2 and was permanently damaged at least until the issue is discovered.
I have often wondered about the torquing we do to an action taking barrels on and off.
Or are we saying that the first barrel was a good barrel and that it may just take a lot of them to find another?
Boyd Allen
Active member
A friend bought his first 6PPC, a sporter, after several years of shooting rimfire groups, over flags, with the best equipment he could find. His first barrel gave him excellent results. Around the time that he replaced it, his average group had started to grow to an unsatisfactory size. After that, he tried two more barrels without success. Figuring something had changed about the action, he ordered another rifle. While he was waiting for it, on the chance that the cause might not be the rifle, he asked me to help him evaluate his program. (Don't laugh, this is a classic case of it being easier to see someone else's problems more easily than one's own.) We looked at his wind flags. One was broken, and he was still using it. We looked at his reloading. It had gotten a little sloppy. I watched him shoot. He was rushing his trigger pull and not following through properly. In all, there were about a dozen items that needed to be fixed. I had him make a list. Once all of the items had been attended to, his rifle magically began to perform as it had in the beginning. About that time, his new rifle, a HV, arrived. He told me later that he had never been able to get it to perform as well as the first one, even though it came from a name smith. I suppose that the point of this tale is that it took him about one barrel to relax and get a little sloppy. Luckily, we were able to fix the problems, and with that start, he is now able to self coach, finding and fixing them himself.
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
Something I have noticed over time is glued in actions coming loose. Don't see it often but I have seen a couple of friends chase their tails because of it. I had a rifle come out of the glue at the Nationals a few years ago. What I think may happen is the epoxie we use for bedding shrinks over time and slowly begins to release actions.
I will agree about getting sloppy shooting, I have to deal with it constantly. I have even made the mistake of using the wrong seating depth for an entire match but I do believe I have seen, over the years, a few situations where the platform deteriates and situations where the second barrel is not what the first one was.
I will agree about getting sloppy shooting, I have to deal with it constantly. I have even made the mistake of using the wrong seating depth for an entire match but I do believe I have seen, over the years, a few situations where the platform deteriates and situations where the second barrel is not what the first one was.