Thank you Gordon E, Calfee

Friend Fiddler

Friend Fiddler:

By the way, as I type this I just swallowed the last piece of Gordon E's killer fudge.......

A barrel could stop shooting from both improper cleaning and wear....

But, let's consentrate on wear......

Thinking out loud some more: When a rimfire target barrel gets enough rounds fired through it for it to loose its guilt edge accuracy, what physically happens to the bore? What does the bore of a rimfire target barrel look like when it starts to loose its accuracy?

See, the thing that physically takes place in the bore, when a barrel starts loosing acccuracy, alters the ability of the bullet to carry wax to the muzzle..........

We are right back to where we started....the secret to killer rimfire accuracy, and, WIND SENSITIVITY.......is WAX......

Do you folks think we should start a new thread on this subject? This one is getting hard to keep up with......I have never cared for them giant threads as they got so hard to follow.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Thinking Out Loud ....

So ya think that comment by Bill will be enough to get Good Ole Gordon E to send him some more killer fudge ... only time will tell

Mike ... the devil made me do it :D
 
Bill, you have mentioned in prior posts where you de-glaze a barrel when it starts to lose accuracy, knowing other factors you mentioned in your last post here will cause accuracy problem's as well, but if this is not the case, then Bill, as Steve asked also, would you be so kind as to explain how you de-glaze a barrel or what causes it. I know brake pads and concrete diamond blades will glaze, but these two examples generate a lot more heat in different applications.

Thanks......Joe
 
Kathy said:
I quote from you: "Something that puzzles me. When you get a lot of rounds through a barrel. The 6:00 groove gets pitted. first at the chamber and eventually to the muzzle. In the beginning it dosent effect accuracy much. That groove holds more lube than the other grooves."

Friend Gordon: You have described the wear pattern of a rimfire benchrest barrel, exactly.....
Your friend, Bill Calfee
Click to expand...

Kathy said:
Thinking out loud some more: When a rimfire target barrel gets enough rounds fired through it for it to loose its guilt edge accuracy, what physically happens to the bore? What does the bore of a rimfire target barrel look like when it starts to loose its accuracy?

See, the thing that physically takes place in the bore, when a barrel starts loosing acccuracy, alters the ability of the bullet to carry wax to the muzzle..........

We are right back to where we started....the secret to killer rimfire accuracy, and, WIND SENSITIVITY.......is WAX......

Your friend, Bill Calfee
Click to expand...

I have zero experience in BR shooting or BR barrels to know anything. That said I have a guess or two based on what has been said here. Since wax seems to be the consistent hint and Mr. Calfee has agreed that a worn out barrel has pitting and also repeats that it is the wax in front of and on the driving band that is important could it be that the pitting disrupts the wax in front of and then on the driving band as it travels down the barrel? It seemed to work as a solution at first but the more I think about it Im not sure. If that were the case I would think as the barrel is shot the pitting would fill with wax and the effects would decrease after more rounds in between cleanings. Even filled with wax the edges of the pits may be enough of a disruption that the bullet has uneven wax or no wax in front of or at the driving band.

The other thought had to do with the statement that the groove held more wax than the others. Again the repeated remarks that the wax needs to be even in front of the driving band would lead to thoughts that if wax were built up heavier in one area of the barrel it would lead to uneven wax at the driving band. This doesn't seem to work with this "See, the thing that physically takes place in the bore, when a barrel starts loosing acccuracy, alters the ability of the bullet to carry wax to the muzzle.........." as I take alters the ability to mean decrease the ability though I guess it could just as well mean unevenly alter and have nothing to do with decreasing.

Just a total shot in the dark there. The first two things that came to mind with all the hints that have been tossed out. Please don't laugh too loud at my ignorance.
 
benzy2,
I'm in the same boat without BR experience. I can think of several potential issues:
1) The uneven wax has caused the bullet to be aerodynamically out of balance increasing drag
2) The bullet has a weight imbalance directly from the wax or indirectly from being deformed, increasing yaw and thereby drag
3) A side force is being imparted on the bullet as it leaves the muzzle increasing yaw
4) All of the above to varying degrees

Dang it Bill. To quote the bank robber in Dirty Harry," I gots to know" :)

Mark
 
Friends Joe and benzy2

My friends:

Friend benzy2: I quote form you:

"I have zero experience in BR shooting or BR barrels to know anything. That said I have a guess or two based on what has been said here. Since wax seems to be the consistent hint and Mr. Calfee has agreed that a worn out barrel has pitting and also repeats that it is the wax in front of and on the driving band that is important could it be that the pitting disrupts the wax in front of and then on the driving band as it travels down the barrel?"

Friend benzy: My friend.....you are exactly right...thank you my friend...

Oh benzy.......you tell this forum all of your thoughts...please..

A worn out barrel removes the wax from one side of the bullet...then the bullet becomes unballanced, then it is wind sensitive.....AND UNACCURATE...

Frendy benzy.........keep your thinking cap on my friend.......we've got work to do.........OK?

Let me ask again, should we start another thread? this one is tooo big...

Benzy.....you keep your mind open......if you see something that old Bill Calfee says that is wrong.....holler! as loud as you can...

Your friend Bill Calfee
 
Friend Patriot

Friend Mark:

To quote from you.............."I gots to know"......

Be patient........we will do this thing slowly......

Your friend, BC
 
New thread?

Bill,

Me personaly, I would keep this thread going. People know about this one even thou it is not titled as what it is ending up like. I like the information all it one spot, instead of having to sort through a bunch of differnt threads.
Just my opinion......

Thoughts on the wax.... Now, I am taking a stab in the dark at this.
The reason that a bullet is less wind sensative. When it has the proper wax coating all the way down the bore, it will leave with a wax still at the top of the driving band. This wax will fill the corner between the driving band, and the bullet nose giving the bullet a more aerodynamic shape. This will lessen the drag on the bullet.

Keep the "thinking out loud" coming, Bill. I am lovin it!

Gordon, Ya gotta love bribery!!! :D

Denny
 
Wax?

Hi The above arguments m,ight explain why my CZ 450 Varmint need to be very hot,
If I shoot ely eps.
I can shoot 20-30 rnds very fast. to get the barrel warm, I will then get a string of very tight groups for as long as I can shoot as fast as I can cycle the bolt.
Thanks
Dennis
 
Variation in wax or lubrication from bullet to bullet will affect poi. Variation in lube from one side of a bullet to the other would be a little harder to explain. Not saying it doesn't exist, just saying it would seem unlikely to occur considering how uniform most bullets seem to be. If you can improve on the factory's application of lubricant, that is apply it in a more uniform manner, or apply a "better" lubricant. then you might improve accuracy.

As to lubricants effect on the flight of a bullet; I think air moving over the bullet at about the speed of sound quickly cleans all the oil or wax off the bullet nose and you are left with just a bare lead bullet to be affected by drag forces or weight distribution. You can judge how clean a bullet might be by just directing the nozzle of an air hose at a bullet and you will see it blows away nearly all the wax or lubricant leaving hardly anything more than just a film probably a few molecules thick - certainly not enough to change the bullet's profile.

Calfee's (and others) suggestion that lubricant plays a role in rimfire accuracy is valid. To what degree it has effect may be something difficult to determine.
 
I agree with most of what you said. But one thing I did do, shoot some targets (normal target paper) with normal bullets and study the holes and then shoot some where you wipe most of the lube off. Quite a bit different hole. Not talking about group size. Just the residue on the target paper. If I'm wrong on this, please correct me. I only tried it once because of a discussion I heard. How does lube effect accuracy other than understanding it does....I have absolutely no idea and am reading this thread with interest.

Hovis
 
The black around the bullet hole is probably the same black you get on the cleaning patch. It's maybe a combination of lead, graphite, carbon, ash, burnt and unburnt powder, lubricant, and whatever else is left after you fire a round. All this stuff may be what affects accuracy since I'm sure it has some effect on friction - which in turn affects velocity - which in turn effects vibration - and as some believe affects wind response - and so on and on.

Other than a slight change in poi with maybe a round or two when you change from bullets with one lube to bullets with another lube I don't really detect a difference in accuracy that I can prove results from a change in lubrication. I suppose if you piled up wax in excess, or on one side of the bullet, as Calfee suggests, then I guess you could affect accuracy. He also suggests if your bullet has to run over water, condensate as he calls it, this also would affect where the bullet hits the target. This all makes sense, but again; does any reasonable difference in lubrication that we see in good bullets have any significant effect on accuracy?

We know the different brands of ammo are lubricated with every thing from oils, which are essentially fluids, all the way to waxes, which are essentially solids. If you look at the properties of these lubricants, you find you can have some serious viscosity changes with waxes when they undergo temperature change. But then it's difficult to keep a consistent quantity of a light oil on a bullet as it is manufactured and handled. The bottom line is, I guess, maybe the perfect bullet lubricant hasn't yet been found but unless some extreme condition exists (excess lube, no lube, high temperature, low temperature, water, dirt) then most of the ammo you find out there isn't too bad.
 
Friend Denny

Friend Denny:

I quote from you my friend:

"Thoughts on the wax.... Now, I am taking a stab in the dark at this.
The reason that a bullet is less wind sensative. When it has the proper wax coating all the way down the bore, it will leave with a wax still at the top of the driving band. This wax will fill the corner between the driving band, and the bullet nose giving the bullet a more aerodynamic shape. This will lessen the drag on the bullet.

Denny, BINGO.........

Denny.......we have so much to discuss....all of us....

A bullet, not to be wind sensitive, has to carry an even distribution of wax, from the leade of the chamber, to the exit of the crown.....

So, what happens when a barrel wears from shooting? I do not mean to put you on the spot...........you don't need to answer.....

The answers will come out in this thread....slowly, so no one feels offended in any way.........

A hint: Wax.......what happens in the bore of a rimfire target barrel, that has been shot a bunch, to prevent the even distribution of wax, completely around the bullet, from being pushed to the crown?

Denny, you need not answer unless you want to......we will do some more "thinking out loud" shortly.....

Oh Denny, I've got some work over on the centerfire forum that I feel I must attend to concerning "relaxing Triggers, which we all will be using shortly...
but we must get this wind sensitivity thing worked out too.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Powder residue from a pevious shot falls to the 6 oclock position in the bore, and it will wear away the nice bright finish of the bore when a bullet passes over it repeatedly ... the same groove each time I might add.

Hose
 
In my years of shooting archery, I can say this....I have a recent work of art in single cam technology that shoots better than any bow I have ever owned. But that could be me. But also I have extensively shot a recurve that really liked HELICAL feathers that didn't care about the type of broadhead on them or types and weights of target points. The feathers stabilized the points. If you damaged a single feather, however slightly, it would effect the POI. I assume that bullets, with a precise cut in the lead from the barrel (which is a function of both the quality of the barrel and the wax distributed around the bullet through the barrel) would have a wonderful helix of stablilization from "wings" cut in lead. The rougher the barrel or the mis-distribution of wax would effect this. This may sound dumb but I've been thinking about it for the last few months because of deer season. It has ended and now my mind is on shooting season. I'm biting at the bit and can't wait for spring. BC, I'm sure that you feel the same. It's just time for some good weather and good shooting.

Carp
 
Good question.....

Kathy said:
So, what happens when a barrel wears from shooting? I do not mean to put you on the spot...........you don't need to answer.....

A hint: Wax.......what happens in the bore of a rimfire target barrel, that has been shot a bunch, to prevent the even distribution of wax, completely around the bullet, from being pushed to the crown?
Click to expand...

Hmmmm...

Couple things come to mind. The most visual is the pitting, and dish out in front of the lead. This could cause the wax to be deposited more, and it could also get more filled with wax so the bullet pushes more from there.

As you said, the bore gets glazed, too slick. This would be a less visual aspect. This would not cause an uneven application of wax on the bullet, but I think that it could cause a shot to shot varience. The smoother, slick bore doesn't hold the wax like a bore with some texture to it.

Could be wrong, but it is something to think about....... :confused:

Off to bed...... And I won't be able to sleep because I am thinking of this......

Denny
 
Normal wax lubricant will not build up on a bullet and change it's B.C. The velocity of air over the bullet removes nearly all the buildup and leaves basically a clean bullet. Very old wax, wax that has dried, might adhere to the bullet and affect B. C. There is no difference in a bullet's response to wind that is due to wax or lubricant buildup unless you were to artificially mold a different shape onto the bullet's nose. There may be a difference in wind response due to yaw in flight cause by a "lubricant effect" but this is not a shape change due to lubricant in the bullet.

A very slick bore would cause, or allow, a thinner lubricant film to build up between the bullet and bore. Thin films do create added friction. The difference would not be enough to cause a velocity difference that would result in a noticeable wind effect difference unless the difference in bore finish is very great. Very smooth bores will be best lubricated by lighter, less viscous, oil rather than wax. After everything is warm there is little difference between oil and wax since wax viscosity falls off rapidly and becomes almost same as oil.

A few pits in a bore will cause no significant difference in bullet flight. A lot of pits could be the equivalent of a rough surface and could affect bullet flight. Unless the difference between "smooth" and "rough" bore is so great as to cause extreme yawing there will be no difference in response to wind. Factors other than bore finish (crown, chamber and throat dimensions, alignment, vibration) can affect yawing and thus response to wind.
 
Friends Denny and hoser

Friends Denny and hoser:

You guys are "thinking out loud just fine"......you both are on the right track...

But, I've got some work to do on the centerfire forum.....then we'll get back here....

Friend pacecil: I read your post.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
pacecil said:
Normal wax lubricant will not build up on a bullet and change it's B.C. The velocity of air over the bullet removes nearly all the buildup and leaves basically a clean bullet..
Click to expand...

Nope...

I did a test a few weeks ago trying to find a lubricant to lube up some cheap bulk ammo.

I have those targets in my hand as I type and they tell an interesting story.

The raw, unlubed ammo makes a "clean" hole.

The lubed ammo (melted bees wax and neutral shoe polish (whitish on the unfired bullet) makes a very dirty hole.

I conclude that the wax is basically intact ahead of the bullet bearing surface and is carrying a larger quantity of particulate from the previous shot.

The unlubed bullet is not carrying very much.

I shot an ARA target with both and the lubed ammo scored 200 pts higher.

lubed-vs-unlubed.jpg
 
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