Thank you Gordon E, Calfee

Bill,
Did you make the "hobb" tool? That's a very interesting too. I had imagined it had rounded flutes like a reamer, just a burnishing reamer of sorts. Been wondering what it looked like for a while, thanks for posting it. I was thinking of making one with rounded flutes from tool steel and hardening it. I guess you have 'em for .224 case mouth sizes and .225 sizes, or does one tool work for both? If this is info you plan on putting into an article, I can understand why you wouldn't want to disclose it at this time. Thanks.
 
Bill
Thanks for the picture of the Hobb. I would think it would have to fit the Leade angle in order to smooth it.
Dosen't the lube in a barrel have to be consistant from shot to shot? When changing different lots of ammo, The first shot will go close to or in the same place as the old lot. Then make a group of it's own.
 
First of all, I don't understand why to open 3 threads on the same subject.
Second, Mr. Calffe, I am sure that the velocity of the bullet effects it's sensitivity to wind. Few years ago I was shooting Russian ammo, made for pistol(pistol Olimp)lot no. op32-89 and op31-88. This was the best ammo I ever had.The velocity of those lots was 985fps.It was much better in the wind than any ammo I ever tested. The ammo was from 1988 and 1989.It shot the smallest groups I have ever seen from test bench through 3 different barrels.
The best prone shooter in the world, Sergey Martinov from BLR still shoots with op31-88 and made 5 times a perfect score of 600 with it.(world record).
I was in Eley test range 5 times already, and they can't make ammo with velocity of 985fps to group well. I am shooting only tenex for the last 5 years, and Eley have great ammo these days, but the pistol olymp was better, no doubt about it. I don't think it was the wax because I have shot a lot of rifle olymp which had the same sensitivity to wind like tenex, and the same velocity 1160fps.
Guy.
 
Relaxed Bolt, Relaxing Trigger

It's been about a year, any updates? Thanks.
 
Friend Hulk

Friend Hulk:

My friend, we've got to get to the bottom of this wind sensitivity thing, so we don't have to worry about it, EVER AGAIN.....so be cool..

Friend Gordon E: You are correct......but we need to play this thing out for once and for all.......

So, I have some more "thinking out loud" posts to post...

..wax....

Happy New Year to all the awesome folks on this fine forum...


Your friend Bill Calfee
 
More thinking out loud

More thinking out loud

Friend Gordon E: Yes, the hobb, pictured, is 2 degrees as is the leade angle of all Calfee reamers....this particular hobb can be used in both my .2250" and 2255" chamber leades.......the .2260" reamer takes a different hobb....

MORE THINKING OUT LOUD

What happens when a rimfire benchrest barrel wears out?

Say a killer barrel has not been damaged by cleaning, etc., and say after a large mumber of rounds are fired through it, its guilt edge accuracy falls off.

Why? I mean, what physically happens to the bore and how does it affect the bullet, causing it to loose accuracy?

See. a killer barrel, that starts to loose its guilt edge, also becomes more wind sensitive....this is why it is so difficult to turn big cards with one.

The answer revolves around the same thing......."wax"

Later on during one of these thinking out loud posts, I'm going to give a perfect example, that everyone on this forum will be familiar with, about the role that "wax" plays in producing both accuracy and wind sensitivity.

Your friend, Bill Calfee "HAPPY NEW YEAR"
 
Bill, Happy New Year to You and all the Rimfire Shooters.

Bill, "Keep thinking out loud". For a whole bunch of us this not only educational but a lot of fun.

Something that puzzles me. When you get a lot of rounds through a barrel. The 6:00 groove gets pitted. first at the chamber and eventually to the muzzle. In the beginning it dosent effect accuracy much. That groove holds more lube than the other grooves. When it gets full length of the barrel the accuracy does fall off. Is it time to rechamber, or a new barrel?
 
Friend Gordon

Friend Gordon:

I quote from you: "Something that puzzles me. When you get a lot of rounds through a barrel. The 6:00 groove gets pitted. first at the chamber and eventually to the muzzle. In the beginning it dosent effect accuracy much. That groove holds more lube than the other grooves."

Friend Gordon: You have described the wear pattern of a rimfire benchrest barrel, exactly.....

We have some more " Thinking out loud posts to do" then when everyone, or almost everyone, is comfortable, we will finish this discussion about what makes some guns more wind sensitive than others....

Friend Gordon, I don't know nothing...I'm just a dumb old guy that loves rimfire accuracy more than life itself......my life is my little guns . But, I learned a long time ago, you can't make folks mad with what you say...

You tell them the problems, then get them to help you with the answers.....

Then everyone, almost everyone, is happy...cause nothing has been shoved down their throats...

Gordon. I want folks to understand why some guns are more wind sensitive than others.....but I don't want to hurt folks feeling doing it...

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
At the risk of embarrassing myself with a guess; the lube loads up on the front of the bullet unevenly causing it to wobble creating more drag?

Mark
 
More thinking out loud

More thinking out loud:

The kind of accuracy we achieve with these little lead bullet rimfires is dependent on the bullet carrying a uniform layer of wax, around the entire circumference of the bullet, and, carrying an even layer wax, around the entire circumference of the bullet, AHEAD OF THE FRONT DRIVING BAND, from the leade of the chamber to the exit of the crown......

When using a match grade, rimfire barrel like I decsribed at the beginning of this thread, if any condition is present, in the bore of the barrel, that prevents what I described in the above paragraph from happening, we loose accuracy and increase wind sensitivity.........

There are several things that can cause the bore of a "killer" barrel to disturb the even distribution of wax on the bullet, and, ahead of it. Improperly finishing the leade of the chamber I've already discussed, or a misaligned chamber. The combustion/lead ring build up can be a cause. The bore being worn from much use is another cause.

When I worked with Eley on the Round Nose bullet, the one thing I determined during my testing, was the need to have a good, deep, front shoulder, and, ENOUGH WAX for the deep shoulder to carry that wax all the way to the exit of the crown.

The Eley Round Nose and the new EPS both have the same length driving bands, and, the same good, deep front shoulder, and plenty of wax to allow the bullet to carry it to the exit of the crown.

More thinking out loud shortly...

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Bill, have you ever heard of "lube purging" that results in a cycle of fliers every X number of shots? I personally do not put much stock in the hypothesis but some folks in other diciplines do. They think that lube builds up in the rifle somehow and then every so often, an excess amount is purged in a single shot resulting in a flier. The thought is that less lube is better in such cases.

Just thinkin' out loud as you say.

Brent
 
Thinking out loud some more

Thinking out loud:

Lube purging? I doubt it, but don't know for sure....... All things being equal, the one factor that will make a killer barrel throw a flipper is condensate in the bore.

Leade angle and the ability to evenly distribute wax around the bullet.....?

If the leade is properly "finished", leade angle does not matter.......but there are other factors.

Always remember; the smaller the leade angle, the longer the actual leade is, which means more of the tops of the lands, that make up the leade, are damaged by the cutting action of the reamer.....and this must be addressed.

It's much harder to "properly" finish a 1-1/2 degree leade than a 2 degree.....and extremely difficult to "properly" finish a 1 degree leade........

Also, the leade life of a 1 or 1 1/2 degree leade is less than the leade life of a 2 degree leade.....

All Calfee reamers use a 2 degree leade, not because it is initially more accurate, but 2 degrees is the best compromise between ease of "properly" finishing the leade and the accuracy life of the leade....

When the leade angle gets above 2-1/2 degrees the bullet is put through an orifice, instead of a gradual transition to the bore....

All of this above information, I've already THOUGHT OUT LOUD ABOUT, IN DETAIL, in my past Precision Shooting writings. Back copies are available.

More thinking out loud as time permits ...Your friend, Bill Calfee

PS Brian Harvey: Would you be offended if I discuss your winning the 8th target with that great 2400, at the 2007 ARA Indoor Nationals? I will not do it without your permission. bc
 
More thinking out loud

More thinking out loud:

I described how a rimfire target barrel should be configured, at the start of this thread, that will produce the absolute least amount of wind sensitivity, as far as the design of the barrel itself is concerned.....

The factor that will allow a barrel configured as I described, to not be wind sensitive, is the proper application of wax in the bore........I've already "thought out loud" about this in previous posts here....

So, the question remains, why will some barrels, configured exactly like I described at the start of this thread, be more wind sensitive that others configured exactly the same way? There is an answer, and the shooters who understand that answer, and apply it to their equipment, will have the greatest chance of success.

What would happen if we removed 1/2 of the wax from the driving bands and ogive of the bullet, from 5 cartridges, then shot those 5 cartridges against 5 cartridges from the same lot number that have all their wax intact, in the same wind? Would one of these groups of 5 bullets buck the wind better than the other? Or would there be no difference?

The answer to the above implication is the secret to having a gun that shoots in the win, as long as the barrel is configured exactly like I described at the beginning of this thread.

More "thinking out loud later"

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
To Calfee...

In your hypothetical test where you shoot 5 wax altered bullets into a group and then shoot 5 unaltered bullets into a group, I suspect you might see a .1 difference in group size. You could then shoot two more groups with either the altered or unaltered bullets and probably see the same .1 spread. You can do this all day long and continue to see this .1 spread in groups. This is just the way 22 rimfires distribute shots in their groups - it can't prove anything one way or the other about the changes you make in wax or anything else. Now, if your change in wax made say a .3 or .4 change in group size then you might see this. Is this close to how much change you think wax makes? My real question is: How do you determine how minor changes affect group size - or if you want to really answer a tough one, how do you determine slight differences in wind effect?

I'm not being critical of any of the "thinking" you or anyone else is doing. I'm not questioning any of your ideas or conclusions. I'm simply trying to find out what it is you base your opinions and theories on. If it is just as simple as - "I just look at where the shots fall", then I understand.
 
A difference of .1 in AVERAGE is significant. That's not what was considered here. The .1 difference was to occur between two single 5 shot groups. A difference of .1 under this circumstance has to be looked at very carefully if you are going to make a conclusion from it.
 
I won't claim to be an expert in .22 BR as you guys know it, but I do understand testing and drawing conclusions. What passes for adequate testing in riflery is a bit frustrating to me, so I put together a webpage on the topic that you might find useful. Of course, if you are happy with your status quo, that is fine too.

Anyway see http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Stats/Testing loads.htm for a more powerful approach.

Brent
 
To HovisKM...

If your groups always measure the same size within .05 then I give up. You have a very consistent shooting gun and ammo. I have to admit I've never owned or seen a gun or ammo this good. This is even better than the best centerfires. You should win a lot with such a gun.

You might take a look at the link in the BrentD post. This may be something you can't use, or don't need to use, but it's pretty good stuff. It's just statistics and relies on information from a number of groups. If your shooting results are such you get all the information you need from one or two groups then you are very lucky and I wish you the best.
 
More thinking out loud

More thinking out loud:

In the experiment I spoke of earlier, with half the wax removed from some bullets, then tested against bullets with all wax left on, the half waxed bullets will be more wind sensitive......anyone can prove this for themself...

Thinking out loud........in this test, the barrel did not change....the twist rate did not change....which means the one factor that causes some barrels to be more wind sensitive than others, IF THEY MEET THE SPECS I LISTED AT THE START OF THIS THREAD, is the even distribution of wax, both on and in front of the driving bands all the way to the exit of the crown......

Now, thinking out loud again: Why does a barrel loose accuracy after a bunch of rounds?

My friends, I'm not looking for anyone to answer these questions, although you're welcome to if you wish.........I'm only attempting to get shooters to think about how we produce match winning accuracy with these little waxed, lead bullet guns...

There is so much more to think about....but, folks, I don't like these big threads.....they tend to get confusing after a while so I may start another on this same subject.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Bill C

Are you talking about Glazing of the barrel due to the number of rounds put down it or poor cleaning methods? How the barrel was lapped from the start etc...
 
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