Testing vs tunning vs poa vs poi

Pacecil

You are right.. I would rather have a lot of ammo that shoots consistant.. Now when shooting ara or psl one shot out wont kill you like ir 50/50 or rba... Harry..
 
to Harrydeneen,

Are you actually telling me you think a gun that shoots large evenly spaced groups is more accurate than one that shoots smaller but irregularly spaced groups?
 
You See Wrong

gambler said:
now,
i finally see why group shooting is less popular than single targets, twenty five single targets are less intimadating..four in a bug hole and one sticking out seems worse than a few 50s on an ARA card..hummm

i just shot ara card in my back 50 yard range, shot two groups on the sighter and thought "this sucks" the ran the card and finished with eight 50s for 2100 and said " not bad for a factory kimber ":confused:
Click to expand...

Score shooting has become popular because you don't need moving backers. In the early 90's there there weren't alot of ranges with moving backers. You could shoot BR-50 on almost any range that had 50 yards to shoot. Made for a lot more places to hold matches. Many of the people who have been in rimfire benchrest since the early days shot centerfire benchrest before shooting rimfire br. I don't know a one of them that is intimadated by group shooting.
 
i was more pleased with the 2100 than the nasty groups..forgot about the moving backers...no offense meant....i come here to get educated not to make trouble:)
 
Pacecil

pacecil said:
Are you actually telling me you think a gun that shoots large evenly spaced groups is more accurate than one that shoots smaller but irregularly spaced groups?
Click to expand...

Pacecil, Harry Deneen is to rimfire br what Tony Boyer is to centerfire br or Lones Wiggers is to your sport. Thru the years Harry has not posted alot because of the arguements on some threads. You as a keyboard rimfire shooter could learn alot from Harry, why try to argue? Harry, always remember, no good deed goes unpunished.
 
Pacecil

What iam saying is that i want all small patterns that are consistant rather than have alot of ammo that shoots smaller patterns with flyers,, here is what i look for.. I want a lot of ammo that will shoot the same poi every time without wind in a controlled place, what i mean by this is a lot of ammo that when i have my gun shot in lets say a little high left , then i want to hit the same poi every time.. I have only had a few lots of ammo like this in my lifetime, i might have alot of ammo that will ashoot 2500s regular but that ammo might shoot lets say a x high then a x low then two x to the left.. This mighht be great ammo and this what we have to settle for most of the time.. A ammo that tracks the same every time is the holy grail of ammo! Ia'm not talking about shooting in some wind because the wind will stabalize a bulllet and it will shoot the same poi... When you find a mmo like this then buy all you can.. Thats if you bedding is fine and your rest is tracking ok,, hope this helps a little.. Will touch on more later.. Harry
 
Mr. Deneen thank you for participating on an open forum discussion. It really does help the new guy like me.

I know me -maybe others -I'm to the point of not knowing if i have a decent rimfire shooter or not. Reading this forum it looks like the right "lot" of ammo is critical.

Us rookies don't know the boundaries. I know learning the boundaries comes with experience, like ammo -do i test 10 lots, 20 lots or even a 100 before i know the rifle ain't gonna ever shoot?

I don't know the boundries between different lots.. can you be shooting around 1500 then bam the next lot your at 2100?

Sometimes i feel like i'm whipping a dead horse - i guess he don't mind he's dead but the cost of ammo for me is sorta pricy. I don't mind spending i know you guys have.... I hate to keep spending and he has been dead for a year.

Is there anyway to tell when i'm just whipping a dead horse and it's time to stop and find another horse??

What kind of spread does say eley10x have everytime a new batch comes out. It almost seems like a guy is going to have to buy in case lots if it's still there when you figure out your gun likes it. Does it actually change that much?

I apologize for all the questions, a general answer would be perfect for me. I just need a few boundaries or where the limits are. I mighta done run off the cliff and still got the pedal to the metal, lol.

Again i appreciate your time, it don't seem like to many guys that have made it in a sport remember to reach back and pull a few knott-heads forward.. thank you -joe:)
 
What Harry is calling patterns in small holes:) I remember he gave me some old Lapua ammo a few years back at the barn while practicing on Friday afternoon. I shot a 5 shot group bout the size of a .22 bullet and proceeded to shoot 15 straight X's on an RBA target. Harry said the rifle was shooting a good pattern:D

When a bullet enlarges the hole it's a bad pattern. Listen to the man, if you want to learn something. He's shot a lot of rimfire bullets in his time and knows good ones from bad ones.
 
Right on, Kent. Harry knows rimfire. He has been a big help to me. If only he could teach me patience. New shooters, LISTEN.
Jim
 
Pappas said, why try to argue? I'm not arguing, I'm simply stating fact. harrydeneen may be the smartest and best rimfire shooter around but he is making the same mistake many other shooters make in this forum. The idea a "pattern" of 4 and 1, or 3 and 2, has more meaning than the space between farthest shots is just plain wrong. This 4/1 or 3/2 pattern exists in nearly all (maybe 95%) of the 5 shot groups you shoot. It is very hard to see in real small groups, but it's there.

harrydeneen, or anybody else, is wasting their time trying to draw conclusions about accuracy of rifle or ammo from a "pattern" in the group. Then there is that idea of calling each shot that lands "out of the group" as a "poi change" All this will give you about the same amount of information as you get from one shot, or a single group - which is just about ZERO!

Again I'm not putting myself up as smarter, or a better shooter, or anything else in this forum. I'm simply trying to explain some simple laws of nature that you might consider as you try to wring more accuracy out of gun or ammo.
 
thanks for any advice harry, i wish precision shooting would talk you
into writing a few articles. then i wouldn't have to print this stuff out
to save it for later. and i could read it without some interfering wannabe.
 
Joe

Please dont give up.. You are not beating a dead horse, there are no limits to rimfire if you are willing to learn, ia'm still learning all the time.. Most all shooters on this forum are willing to help but there are always someone that dont understand plain english so when they hear something diffrent from what they have experienced they will fued... There are big diffeences in ammo from the older stuff.. Ammo is more condition sensitive from old.. Weather effects it more with the new primer that we use now.. You will have to match your gun up with it and when you do it will be like turning on a light.. Providing all other little things are right with your gun.. Pacecil.. I tried to explain it clear so you could understand! I want ammo that shots little bub holes and has no flyers... Second if i can get it , i want ammo that tracks the same, very , very hard to find.. Most shooters will know what ia'm talking about.. When you sit down and shoot a rimefire your poi will be around the same spot except it will wonder a little without the right ammo.. Harry:):):)
 
harry,
thank you very much. you are helping us new rookies out alot, and we thank you for it.

try not to allow the know it all's to cause you to stop. do you have anymore ideals that we could use? we need to learn and help from one of the best is always great. i have talked to mr. pappas and e-mailed dan killough. each has been very helpful as well. i would like to thank each of you for taking the time to talk to a new guy in the sport and being very friendly. it's gentlemen like you guys that make this sport what it is. fun,friendly and a challenge.
 
to Harry Deneen and others

The Difference

After all these years of study
Of many different games
I can’t help but ponder
The difference between first and second place
The crowds don’t favor losers
But bare with me and see
That next best is no loser
And neither number three
For who can say for sure
What makes the first man win
Was it his heart, his drive
His knowledge
Or his concentration pure
First place may be the loser
In the game of life
If he never shared his knowledge
Nor lent a helping hand
Never reached back with help
For the second man
It would have broken his concentration
But gained a solid friend
So go on charge ahead
Win the day you see
All my respect goes
To the man
Who’s helping number three
So thanks my friend
You did not win
Because you were helping me
thanks

Earl Schrum aka gambler
 
Harry

You can't explain it to someone who is not in the game, but someone who is will see that you are right.
 
Harry,

I’ve read a lot of your posts both on this forum and elsewhere for some time, and I just wanted to say that you have helped my search for rimfire accuracy a lot. Like you I believe in setting a rifle up, indoors, in my case 25yds, then moving outdoors to confirm my findings. Up to now I’ve never found a batch of ammo that shot well indoors and didn’t shoot outdoors just as well.

Apart from shooting groups, I have a practice card that is a grid of twelve by eight 2mm (0.080”) X’s printed on a card, about your letter size in portrait. I’ve shown a picture below of a row shot tonight using some 1078fps Eley Team.

This is how the row was formed: - (rifle= FWB 2700, no tuner)

1 - was around 7 or 8 shots, the barrel had been cleaned (lightly) as the previous row had been Ruag R50
2 & 3 – were low so I put two clicks up
4 & 5 - were a little high so I came down one click
6 to 12 – all on the same setting

My question is would you consider this a valid method of testing ammunition i.e. would you be happy with ammo that shot columns 6 to 12 (it is repeatable), or would you be looking for something better (sorry for the dumb question, I’m just trying to find a yardstick used by the top shooters is the US). The frightening thing is this batch of Team is dimensionally the worst I have ever seen from Eley, the rim thickness varies by up to .002”. The O.D. of the case is slightly undersize and the lube is “thin”. This batch seems to go against all the conventions of selection but still seems to shoot well.

Brian



Team.jpg
 
Tuners ?

Mr Harry i'm still looking for boundaries. If you don't mind -your thoughts on tuners. How much of a correction are they good for.

Using a PSL target, say with no tuner your "chewing up" the red ring -would that be too far off to be corrected by a tuner?

I probably have some dumb questions to the experienced shooter but any help is appreciated.

I do not have the seniority here at B.C. to ask but could we please keep on topic for a page or two. thanks joe :)
 
Mr Pappas says...
<snip>I also stated the top 5 rifles in the PSL points race are shooting groups that approach .050 of an inch. <snip>
Click to expand...

I'm trying to figure out "limits".... Would anyone venture a guess if a top 5 rifle was loaned to a bottom 5 shooter -with no ammo, what would be the best possible finish for a bottom 5 shooter at the next event.
thanks joe :)
 
Depends

jGEE said:
I'm trying to figure out "limits".... Would anyone venture a guess if a top 5 rifle was loaned to a bottom 5 shooter -with no ammo, what would be the best possible finish for a bottom 5 shooter at the next event.
thanks joe :)
Click to expand...

Your question has burned in the minds of many since the dawn of firearms competition. The answer is simple but complex and never ever finite. The success of a competitor on one hand is dependent on individual factors while on the other, success is dependent on aligning those individual factors to gain advantage.

I'll ask a related question....

Why is the bottom 5 shooter a bottom 5 shooter?

If the "cause" is a flawed rifle, then his scores will surely improve with the loan of a great rifle. If that's the only flaw, he becomes competitive.

Another question....

How can you possibly test ammo with a flawed rifle?

One of those "chicken and egg" things for sure. It would seem logical to get your hands on a few boxes of known "winning" (read consistent) ammo and test the chicken first.

Generally speaking, the top 5 shooters didn't get there casually. They spend their days and nights working toward improvement. At some point, ammo becomes the deciding factor. It's the difference in a 749 agg and a 750. Could also be the difference in a 736 and a 740 but other, more limiting, flaws exist here.
 
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