C
CMaier
Guest
All this discussion is just one more vote for burris insert rings,
either standard or the new tacticool version.
either standard or the new tacticool version.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
C
CMaier
Guest
Yes i do not have a 10.5 rifle.
I would trim the bbl before i did most of the band-aids suggested here.
I would trim the bbl before i did most of the band-aids suggested here.
Boyd Allen
Active member
He has his rings and suggestions have been made as to he might increase the coefficient of friction so that his scope does not slip. The rubber cement and rosin tips have been used successfully for years, as has bedding rings. None of those suggestions are band-aid in my opinion. They are good practical alternatives that will hot harm the parts and will give the desired performance. As to your suggestion that the best route would be to use Burris rings with inserts, they are not made for his action, and are never likely to be. I am surprised that you even bought that option up given that he told us that his action was a Panda. Another option that has not been mentioned is to use three rings that were manufactured as side by side pieces of the same bar, but of course this would be the most expensive option, since it would involve replacement of his rings with a matched set, and gain him no more than he would from the other suggestions that I mentioned.
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CMaier, I'm disappointed you'd continue to comment and yell "band-aid" when referring to setups about which you know little.....BR Rifles and "If I Do My Part" rifles are about as similar as Ford Pintos and F1 cars.......they both roll down the road.....
That said, not all weight-restricted Bench Rest setups are equal either!!!
I recently did "All Of The Above" to a full-blown 16.5lb rifle and the scope continued to slip.......the owner had a particular Schmidt and Bender scope preference (truly nice glass but heavy) and the cartridge was a blown out 338 Lapua design-built specifically for 300gr 3rd Gen Bergers...... Wikkid Kikker eh........WIKKID kikker. But eats the wind like a BMG.....
I Kokopelli'd, lapped and bedded for scrupulously degreased fittage and then degreased fully and JB Welded the rings to the tube. (Bases of course welded down similarly....90% of all "scope problems" are, IME, actually scope mounting problems, even on PPC's)
Slippage,
Gone.
BTW, it's ROSIN, not resin.
Altho I DID use resin
Rockin'
al
C
CMaier
Guest
Yes i stepped in it,
i keep forgetting about how poor the quality
is in short range custom expensive benchrest parts.
i keep forgetting about how poor the quality
is in short range custom expensive benchrest parts.
C
CMaier
Guest
glenn,
if you are talking german..they are well known for high costs to keep them running.
cost of the car is only a part of cost of ownership.
if you are talking german..they are well known for high costs to keep them running.
cost of the car is only a part of cost of ownership.
MBrenner - you mentioned that the lower has been lapped. Perhaps they were lapped a bit too much and are no longer 30mm. If this may be the case...a layer of something or other may be needed to restore the "diameter" to 30mm. I've often wondered why folks believe scope rings need lapping but I don't know everything.....like I think I do.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Wilbur,
Having lapped a number of rings, for myself and others, perhaps I can tell you what I found. Typically, when I lapped a bit, and then cleaned the rings enough to see where the bar was cutting, and where it did not, there was ample evidence indicating that unlapped, the rings would have made much less than ideal contact with the scope to be mounted. In some cases, generally where bases were involved, and particularly on factory actions, I have seen strong evidence that tightening unlapped rings would have put considerable bending force on the scope. Even when I have lapped rings that were mounted on one piece or integral bases I have seen that the lapping improved the fit, and improved the extent of contact between rings and the scope.
Years back, when I asked Speedy about what he does, I believe that he told me that he laps them to 60% contact and then beds them. I have only had scopes move a couple of times, and in those cases the cap screws had loosened a bit. A little of the weakest thread locker was applied, and the problem did not reoccur. Generally, I stop the lapping when I have achieved good, if not 100% contact (admittedly a judgement call) and when I am sure that the contact is such that the scope will not be bent or stressed when the ring caps are tightened. Generally, I do not think that mashing a aluminum scope tube into rings that, after tightening on their bases are not round, and which may not be in line with each other to be a bad idea.
Reading Tony Boyer's book, I learned that he puts considerable effort into mounting his scopes. He does not just bolt things together....quite the opposite.
Having lapped a number of rings, for myself and others, perhaps I can tell you what I found. Typically, when I lapped a bit, and then cleaned the rings enough to see where the bar was cutting, and where it did not, there was ample evidence indicating that unlapped, the rings would have made much less than ideal contact with the scope to be mounted. In some cases, generally where bases were involved, and particularly on factory actions, I have seen strong evidence that tightening unlapped rings would have put considerable bending force on the scope. Even when I have lapped rings that were mounted on one piece or integral bases I have seen that the lapping improved the fit, and improved the extent of contact between rings and the scope.
Years back, when I asked Speedy about what he does, I believe that he told me that he laps them to 60% contact and then beds them. I have only had scopes move a couple of times, and in those cases the cap screws had loosened a bit. A little of the weakest thread locker was applied, and the problem did not reoccur. Generally, I stop the lapping when I have achieved good, if not 100% contact (admittedly a judgement call) and when I am sure that the contact is such that the scope will not be bent or stressed when the ring caps are tightened. Generally, I do not think that mashing a aluminum scope tube into rings that, after tightening on their bases are not round, and which may not be in line with each other to be a bad idea.
Reading Tony Boyer's book, I learned that he puts considerable effort into mounting his scopes. He does not just bolt things together....quite the opposite.
MBrenner - you mentioned that the lower has been lapped. Perhaps they were lapped a bit too much and are no longer 30mm. If this may be the case...a layer of something or other may be needed to restore the "diameter" to 30mm. I've often wondered why folks believe scope rings need lapping but I don't know everything.....like I think I do.
Wilbur you need to get'cherself ahold of some Kokopelli tooling and you'll see that even rings "cut from the same billet" mounted on one piece bases aren't often straight.
Boyd Allen
Active member
+1
A million people will bed rifles this year......maybe 50 will do it correctly.
Millions more will mount scopes.....again, maybe 50 will do it correctly.
It ain't ABOUT parts!
And maybe 50 people will realize this......
These people will win,
consistently.
Game Don't Lie
Millions more will mount scopes.....again, maybe 50 will do it correctly.
It ain't ABOUT parts!
And maybe 50 people will realize this......
These people will win,
consistently.
Game Don't Lie
This is kinda' funny......
"resin, rosin let's call the whole thing off"
http://www.directsports.com/mueller-batter-s-rock-resin-bag-020401
Turns out that I was WRONG........colloquially it IS RESIN, even when the bag says ROSIN!!
I stand corrected
"resin, rosin let's call the whole thing off"
http://www.directsports.com/mueller-batter-s-rock-resin-bag-020401
Turns out that I was WRONG........colloquially it IS RESIN, even when the bag says ROSIN!!
I stand corrected
M
MBrenner
Guest
Report on Mounting Scope Using Rubber Cement - Very Positive Results
This update report on mounting my scope (a Nightforce Benchrest 12-42x that makes HV weight!) should interest everyone posting on this thread. I decided to make mounting my scope a sort of research project. From your posts I originally thought of using PermaTex, but then switched decisions to rubber cement due to concerns over ease of cleanup or removal of hard bedding residue. So the scope was mounted with rubber cement, rings tightened appropriately and let sit for a couple of days. This morning I intentionally disassembled everything to find a beautifully bedded rubber cement coating on top and bottom of both rings, just a little residue on the scope, and the scope solidly sticky in the rings even before removal. Clean up was super easy and no ring marks anywhere! That scope would not have slipped under 30BR recoil, I'm convinced! And with the rubber cement acting as bedding I didn't have to fear over tightening the rings, not even coming close to touching on the sides. A very solid way of mounting a scope and I wish I had known of this method many years ago. So now I will confidently remount the scope again with rubber cement and will do the same with all scopes in the future. I hope you guys will find this little research project informative and helpful. Thanks again for this and all of your suggestions. Rubber cement was the solution! Cheers!
This update report on mounting my scope (a Nightforce Benchrest 12-42x that makes HV weight!) should interest everyone posting on this thread. I decided to make mounting my scope a sort of research project. From your posts I originally thought of using PermaTex, but then switched decisions to rubber cement due to concerns over ease of cleanup or removal of hard bedding residue. So the scope was mounted with rubber cement, rings tightened appropriately and let sit for a couple of days. This morning I intentionally disassembled everything to find a beautifully bedded rubber cement coating on top and bottom of both rings, just a little residue on the scope, and the scope solidly sticky in the rings even before removal. Clean up was super easy and no ring marks anywhere! That scope would not have slipped under 30BR recoil, I'm convinced! And with the rubber cement acting as bedding I didn't have to fear over tightening the rings, not even coming close to touching on the sides. A very solid way of mounting a scope and I wish I had known of this method many years ago. So now I will confidently remount the scope again with rubber cement and will do the same with all scopes in the future. I hope you guys will find this little research project informative and helpful. Thanks again for this and all of your suggestions. Rubber cement was the solution! Cheers!
I guess I'll have to ask....what does "straight" rings have to do with mounting a scope. Yeah, I know that they have to be straight enough to be usable but I'm talking about lapping rings just because it sounds like a good idea. I suppose the question is simply...do the rings really need to be lapped?
Boyd Allen
Active member
The only reliable way that I have to determine whether they need lapping is to do a little lapping and look at the pattern. Obviously some rings are better aligned to each other than others. With aluminum rings (which I prefer, except when using Burris Signature Z rings) lapping does not take long, and my thought has always been to do things the best that I can with the tools that I have available.
Example of parting line 'pinch'
Here's an example of why you relieve the parting lines. And why scope tubes get 'pinch marks'. And why they should be bedded.
Once the scope tube is bedded to the rings, I shoot for about .025-.030 parting line relief about 45 degrees. It's nothing real tricky....5 minutes with a small file does it.
If you look closely, you can see the epoxy between the ring base and the receiver for 100% contact. This is another area that needs to be addressed but seldom is. With a dovetail setup, roughening up the mating surfaces and a dab of JB Weld does the trick.
A 'recoil lug' between the base and the ring can also be a big benefit on the dovetail setups. I fitted this one to my RFD:
Here's an example of why you relieve the parting lines. And why scope tubes get 'pinch marks'. And why they should be bedded.
Once the scope tube is bedded to the rings, I shoot for about .025-.030 parting line relief about 45 degrees. It's nothing real tricky....5 minutes with a small file does it.
If you look closely, you can see the epoxy between the ring base and the receiver for 100% contact. This is another area that needs to be addressed but seldom is. With a dovetail setup, roughening up the mating surfaces and a dab of JB Weld does the trick.
A 'recoil lug' between the base and the ring can also be a big benefit on the dovetail setups. I fitted this one to my RFD:
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Here's an example of why you relieve the parting lines. And why scope tubes get 'pinch marks'. And why they should be bedded.
Hey Al,
looks like you've also glued the bases down....... I feel very strongly about this. IMO gluing the bases is mandatory.
And about the recoil lug......"Why din't I think of that???"
nice!