South Bend Heavy 10

I have been able to chamber and fit a few barrels that shoot better than I can shoot them, even with my marginal ability and know how.

Pete[/QUOTE]

Pete, As I remember you were a member of the US world team in South Africa. I suspect your "marginal ability" is better by a large margin then most. Tim
 
I have noticed a great deal of disdain for lathes made in China in this forum. It reminds me of how Japanese tools were thought of when I was younger. Are they really that bad? Has any one here actually used one for gunsmithing? If so, what was the result? Tim

Tim, multitudes of Gunsmiths and Hobbyist perform perfectly adequate work on these machines made in China. Gunsmith work is not very demanding on a machine.

The big differences in low end machines and higher end machines are things like hardened shafts, hardened and ground gears, higher quality machinery grade bearings, and fit and finish.

The electronics can also be of a higher quality in higher end machines, especially those with cushion starting and braking.

Machine tools are an item where you do get what you pay for.
 
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I have been able to chamber and fit a few barrels that shoot better than I can shoot them, even with my marginal ability and know how.

Pete

From the late 1960's until I retired in 1997 I had the privilege of going to the biannual International Machine Tool Show in Chicago. It is a gathering of machine tool builders from allover the world
who bring an enormous collection of all types of machine tools to the hugh McCormick Center complex.

In the 1970 IMTS just after the US had turned the Japanese loose these Japanese showed up with cameras galore. By the 1972 IMTS they showed up with machine tools that were even visually superior to what the US was producing at that time.

During that time period I was tasked to specifying the machine tools bought by our 18,000 employee division of Eastman Kodak. From that time period on most of what I specified was machine tools from Japan.

IMO, these cheap off quality Communist machines are only being bought by neophytes who lack experience in what quality machine tools should possess

Last night the State of the Union camera operators should be complimented as they showed why this country needs a change of some of the leadership. Sickening to look at the likes of Schumer and Palosi and to think they claim to be American???

To be fair to the American tool builders that period was where the doom and gloom being touted by some created regulations that shut down the casting manufacturers who had brought the US to the lead.


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Probably the biggest problem with imports is the variable quality. You can buy anything from China - from excellent to not worth plugging in. And there's probably a sweet spot for the gunsmith machinist. I think a lot of the disdain for Chinese tools is mostly resentment. All the guys I know that won't touch Chinese tools, have never touched Chinese tools. They assume they're awful and sedulously avoid evidence to the contrary. The folks I know that have bought Chinese either went cheap and got junk, or spent a little more and are generally pleased. It's almost a moot point anymore. It's getting to the point where your choices are going to be a) Chinese or b) clapped-out 'old iron' that's past its usefulness. If I lived in one of the midwest industrial areas I might have been able to pick up some decent American machines, but out here I'd have no better mill than I have now (I have a Grizzly) and I'd still be looking for a decent lathe (I have a Summit, (Bulgarian)).

GsT
 
Probably the biggest problem with imports is the variable quality. You can buy anything from China - from excellent to not worth plugging in. And there's probably a sweet spot for the gunsmith machinist. I think a lot of the disdain for Chinese tools is mostly resentment. All the guys I know that won't touch Chinese tools, have never touched Chinese tools. They assume they're awful and sedulously avoid evidence to the contrary. The folks I know that have bought Chinese either went cheap and got junk, or spent a little more and are generally pleased. It's almost a moot point anymore. It's getting to the point where your choices are going to be a) Chinese or b) clapped-out 'old iron' that's past its usefulness. If I lived in one of the midwest industrial areas I might have been able to pick up some decent American machines, but out here I'd have no better mill than I have now (I have a Grizzly) and I'd still be looking for a decent lathe (I have a Summit, (Bulgarian)).

GsT

Exactly the reality I live with in Colorado.
 
If one were to come across a Chinese lathe far better in overall quality than those once produced here they would still be considered to be junk by one of those here. One would tend to think they did not become the industrial giant they have now become by using substandard machinery to get them there. Not everything they make is Harbor Freight quality all though some seem to think it to be so.
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Trained and certified Chinese workers are no less skillful than any worker I encountered anywhere in EU, US, and Asia. They can produce to the understood and agreed upon quality standard set forth by their customers.
 
Trained and certified Chinese workers are no less skillful than any worker I encountered anywhere in EU, US, and Asia. They can produce to the understood and agreed upon quality standard set forth by their customers.

Nez has set up manufacturing plants around the World and knows his $ hit.
 
Trained and certified Chinese workers are no less skillful than any worker I encountered anywhere in EU, US, and Asia. They can produce to the understood and agreed upon quality standard set forth by their customers.

Nez, the Japanese workers have a very good work ethic. The communist have destroyed any work ethic or pride the Chinese ever had. I have been heavily involved in the machine tool industry since 1968. I know good machines from junk produced by slave labor!

How any communist Chinese automobiles or firearms do you own?

Read the Anticomintern Pact of 1936-1937. Japan was crossing China to stop Mao coming out of Russia!! FDR set up an ambargo to strangle Japan...Pearl Harbor——a false flag event by the communist FDR!

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Nez, the Japanese workers have a very good work ethic. The communist have destroyed any work ethic or pride the Chinese ever had. I have been heavily involved in the machine tool industry since 1968. I know good machines from junk produced by slave labor!

How any communist Chinese automobiles or firearms do you own?

Read the Anticomintern Pact of 1936-1937. Japan was crossing China to stop Mao coming out of Russia!! FDR set up an ambargo to strangle Japan...Pearl Harbor——a false flag event by the communist FDR!

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I ran numerous capital projects in Japan and was an expat in China for 4 years when we built the most advanced semiconductor factory in the country, I do have first hand first hand experience dealing with local workers, engineers, and managers.

China coming out of the dark ages of the cultural revolution in the late 60s, where the country was turned into the ruling party's utopian agrarian nation, purging the educated, coupled with the exodus of the Kuomintang earlier, the country had the gravest challenge to lift themselves and be where they are today.

As a nation, Japan, no doubt, has the best national discipline, and maybe the safest country I have ever been.

Taiwan was mentioned and the quality comparison. In 2000 when I was in China, most of the industries were ran and managed by Taiwanese. The Chinese were smart enough to acknowledge their limitations that if they needed to jump start their manufacturing, they needed the expertise, and the Taiwanese speak the business language, a convenient match. When we sold the factory to a Chinese entity, I had the sad task of the detailed asset transfer to the new management - all Taiwanese, all US educated.

The government car leased to me by the city was Chinese made, an Audi clone, it was not bad, not a Lexus for sure. I could have had a Buick van made in China from a leasing company, I preferred the city car with government plates. It has its priveledges that goes along with my government driver for 4 years.

Slave labor wages is so when compared with US wages. Local wages there are what the economy drives. Average workers may not make a lot compared to their US counterparts, but adequate. I used to spend less than 30 US cents for a good lunch at mom and pop places. My wife goes to the Sheraton and spends 20 USD. This is the difference between the local typical economy as opposed to western standard.

Would you ride in a Chinese made MagLev high speed train, clicking at 200+ kph? What if I tell you with German engineering powering it? Probably so. China partnered with the Germans to build a high speed train from Pudong to Shanghai with the contract that future systems will be built in China under German tutelage. That was 18 years ago. I have not checked, I won't be surprised if they surpassed Japan in number of high speed rail system by now.
 
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If one were to come across a Chinese lathe far better in overall quality than those once produced here they would still be considered to be junk by one of those here. One would tend to think they did not become the industrial giant they have now become by using substandard machinery to get them there. Not everything they make is Harbor Freight quality all though some seem to think it to be so. .
Don't go to the Practical Machinist web site and talk about Chinese machinery. They'll run you out on a rail. I quit that site a couple of years ago because of all the grief they give people who ask questions about their Chinese machinery.
 
Don't go to the Practical Machinist web site and talk about Chinese machinery. They'll run you out on a rail. I quit that site a couple of years ago because of all the grief they give people who ask questions about their Chinese machinery.

Wonder why they feel that way?

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Import machines are allowed to be discussed in the Gunsmithing section at PM. There are of course the group of people that can't get over it.
 
I ran numerous capital projects in Japan and was an expat in China for 4 years when we built the most advanced semiconductor factory in the country, I do have first hand first hand experience dealing with local workers, engineers, and managers.

China coming out of the dark ages of the cultural revolution in the late 60s, where the country was turned into the ruling party's utopian agrarian nation, purging the educated, coupled with the exodus of the Kuomintang earlier, the country had the gravest challenge to lift themselves and be where they are today.

As a nation, Japan, no doubt, has the best national discipline, and maybe the safest country I have ever been.

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Look around. In the modern era, where has the innovation and quality come from? The US, Japan and central Europe (Germany, Austria).

Sure we can go to Wally World and buy a wireless ChiCom printer for $39. But Communist Chinese automobiles and machine tools? Back in the days of Ming the Chinese were on top. In the last decades they were under the rule of the evils of Communism! Evil and atheism took the wind out of their sails!!!


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Look around. In the modern era, where has the innovation and quality come from? The US, Japan and central Europe (Germany, Austria).

Sure we can go to Wally World and buy a wireless ChiCom printer for $39. But Communist Chinese automobiles and machine tools? Back in the days of Ming the Chinese were on top. In the last decades they were under the rule of the evils of Communism! Evil and atheism took the wind out of their sails!!!


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I mentioned earlier, trained and certified workers is the key to successful quality system.

When we started the factory in China there were no qualified crafts people to be hired. We brought in hook up company from the UK, construction management and QA/QC from the US, with a defined plan for localization. By the time we de-mobilized the foreigners, the trained Chinese took over. Did I see any degradation in quality of work? NO.

How did the factory we built in China do comparatively? The first lot through the line yielded higher than the mature product we transferred from the U.S. The 2nd lot yielded higher than the mature foundry line in Taiwan and higher than than one our factories in Japan of the same product. Bottom line, nobody has the monopoly on quality.

It was not that long and how quickly we have forgotten about them cheap Japanese cottage industry products.

The Chinese are coming. We are complicit to it. The H1B visas, the student visas are the culprits. Those educated and gained experience here are going back to their country with the western knowledge. They will fuel the future of China.

Why did our company built factories in China, or why did others do the same for that matter? To make money. That 1.3 B people is a huge market. At one time our company owned 1/3 of the handset market in China, but to get there and not get VAT to death we had to set up factories there. They did not just fell off the turnip truck, they know what they have and they know what they want. In 2004 alone, the handset users in China were more than the entire population of America.

Watch "BMW 5-Series CAR FACTORY - HOW IT'S MADE - Cina Production Plant Assembly Line" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/9fjnMJauGwU

Watch "BMW Engine Plant in China" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/-fnSnCGQZKk

I had the privilege to listen to our CEO in our staff meeting after he had one-on-one with the Chinese leader. Our CEO shared the ruling politburo's vision for their country post Mao. What we see now is the last stage - be a vital player of the world economy. The other 4 were internal stuff.

Evils of the communists? Let's not forget Bataan Death March, and concentration camp, which Dad survived both, let's not forget the rape of NanJing, and the human experiment lab in Harbin.
 
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In the scheme of things

the type machine we use and talk about are obsolete to most manufacturing situations today so we are beating a dead horse and so are the Practical Machinist folks. It appears to me that Japan has the upper hand with the CNC machines or Korea but I think the names I see usually on the Youtubes I watch are mostly Japanese. I know there are other countries involved and I don't know how many companies in this country make CNC machines , I'm sure there are some.

So, really, all our banter is only that. One only has to look at Winchester and see how we threw everything away making cheap stuff to sell to the Box stores. If Winchester had focused on quality, made fewer guns for the amount of money they needed to survive, they would have likely still been around; the old company I'm talking about.

We let the Bean Counters ruin our industries along with the leveraged buyouts.SO, we have a few families with most of the money again, the way it was back in the 1920's and before. I maintain the the MBA Degree ruined us. I have yet to see any proof to the contrary. We , they , figured out how to hone Free Enterprise to where it doesn't work for the bulk of society, only those on top. And I'm sticking to it. :)

Pete
 
t I don't know how many companies in this country make CNC machines , I'm sure there are some.
We make more specialized machines than simple mills and lathes that are generally obsolete except for the maintenance of more sophisticated machines.

They still see some use to make replacement parts when required but that is pretty far from 'production'.

We make VERY precise semiconductor fabrication equipment.

Many of the most sophisticated things are protected as 'proprietary' and very few are allowed to see them as other than a sheet metal box.

The how is very difficult to determine from examining the product.

Any semiconductor process (or fab line) that has been freely written about or donated to a university is obsolete.

Very obsolete.
 
I guess I could understand

the anti China machine thing if comparable machines were still made in this country at an affordable price but as far as I know, that situation does not exist and old manual machines often are not in the very best of shape. So, it can't honestly be a matter of National Pride or competition, can it?

It's sort of like colleges not allowing conservatives speak on campus any longer. Reality checks are in order all around.

Pete
 
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