Salt bath Nitrocarbonizing

[rain164845]

Joel

Do you want to post up the price of doing one barrel?
Joe

 

[alinwa]

I spoke with Joel today. He said that the above max temp of 900 degrees is a misprint.

Actual working temp is 980 degrees, still well below the draw temp of 416 (1070F??)

I'm shooting off the cuff here, I have no idea what I'm talking about re types of SS, but I AM planning on a big ol' BAT 'M', Krieger barrel and about 30lb of assorted CM parts.

Rootie-toot-toot.....

al

 

[quartersnatcher]

Salt Bath Nitriding (Isonite QPQ)

rain164845,
Prices are quoted based on quantity of components processed per lot with a min lot charge of $300.00. One barrel QPQ processed is $60.00 ea call me for details.
Thanks,
Joel Kendrick
cell 704-616-6442

 

[KDB]

So, what is the real advantage of SBN your gear? It is just easier to clean...? I would be interested if it definitively extended barrel life in a barrel burner, like my 22-250 or 300 RUM, but otherwise cannot see the benefit of the expense. Would someone enlighten me on the proven benefits of the SBN treatment.

Thanks in advance.
KB

 

[Butch Lambert]

KB, Did you read my previous post. When you can have a PPC barrel last 5000 rounds of top shooting and still have the throat borescope well, it is worth the money. Unfortunately I never got it back.
Butch

 

[KDB]

Butch,

I did read your post, and it's not that I don't believe you, but I have seen no official declaration to that effect. It would be nice if the company would do some primary scientific research to that effect and then publish the results.
I went to MMI- Trutec's website, hoping to find some answers, but to no avail.

Also, what was the chambering in your 5000+ barrel? Was it a BR type that are easier on barrels/throats or a barrel burner like most of mine?

Thanks,
KB

 

[alinwa]

Butch,

I did read your post, and it's not that I don't believe you, but I have seen no official declaration to that effect. It would be nice if the company would do some primary scientific research to that effect and then publish the results.
I went to MMI- Trutec's website, hoping to find some answers, but to no avail.

Also, what was the chambering in your 5000+ barrel? Was it a BR type that are easier on barrels/throats or a barrel burner like most of mine?

Thanks,
KB

This is the quote from the post just above yours..... I just clicked and dragged it.......

"...............When you can have a PPC barrel last 5000 rounds ................"

READ it thus"

"PPC barrel" = "5000+ barrel"

"chambering" = "PPC"

I mean whaddaya' WANT? That's about as clear as a man can be????

BTW, what's an "official declaration"???? Does The Obomanator need to bless Butch's efforts? There are not enough accurate barrels in the world to justify a study, let alone "primary scientific research." Joel is using salt bath nitrocarburizing equipment from another industry to treat guns. It's NEW, a new idea. A new app....It's not an industry, it's an experiment.

If you wanna' try it, join the club.... ground floor opportunity to be a guinea pig.


If you want some sort of guarantee????

I can't see this happening.

al

 

[KDB]

Wow,

I did not mean for you to get your panties in a wad there, Al. I did not realize that you were so emotionally attached, therefore, I apologize. I must have overlooked the PPC part of the statement. Guessing that I cannot multitask while reading posts. So again, I digress.

So, it is not possible to conduct a study with barrels made of steel from the same lot, rifled and chambers by the same barrel maker/riflesmith, loaded with the same bullets, powder, primer and cases from the same lots, with one barrel treated and the other naked, and measure the results. If I were in the business, I would use this research the basis for my marketing campaign. That's all I meant by an official declaration and primary scientific research.

Thanks for your patience,

KB

 

[alinwa]

Wow,

I did not mean for you to get your panties in a wad there, Al. I did not realize that you were so emotionally attached, therefore, I apologize. I must have overlooked the PPC part of the statement. Guessing that I cannot multitask while reading posts. So again, I digress.

So, it is not possible to conduct a study with barrels made of steel from the same lot, rifled and chambers by the same barrel maker/riflesmith, loaded with the same bullets, powder, primer and cases from the same lots, with one barrel treated and the other naked, and measure the results. If I were in the business, I would use this research the basis for my marketing campaign. That's all I meant by an official declaration and primary scientific research.

Thanks for your patience,

KB

I think a person "could" do as you propose BUT.......

It would take at the least 5 or 10 trials to be meaningful? And with each makers' barrel?? I mean it stands to reason that cut-rifled barrels will take solution and wear differently than buttoned eh? CM versus SS? If I owned Shilen or Broughton and testing was only done on Krieger and Hart bbls...... you see where I'm going with this?

So, a bunch of barrels. At 450.00 a pop...... just for the BARREL.

Then the treatment of half the barrels, the powder and ball, reloading time...... the actual TIME to do the shooting...... Who has this time? And how do you delineate accuracy parameters and degradation thereof when each and every barrel in the world is a separate entity? and the weather changes by the second?

So we need a tunnel and a million dollars for any sort of reasonable test..... for a realization of what 100-300 barrels a year? Even a thousand, at $40-60.00 a pop?

Gonna' take a long time to realize a return on this investment!

I'm not "emotionally attached" to this thing at all. But I AM in business and recognize what huge steps some of these guys like Joel and Lou and Butch take in the quest for extreme accuracy. In most cases it sure ain't business sense that drives them, but love of this sport.

al

 

[Boyd Allen]

We live in a world where decisions often have to be made on the basis of anecodatal information. Time and resources are limited. Sometimes the safest way is to wait a while and let others report their results, sort of like intentionally staying one or two MS OSs out of date. On the other hand, I always encourage experimentation, it has the prospect of saving me money, and eventually I will adapt improvments, after suficient data is produced. I never did cryo a barrel, and I may have saved myself the price of a Chargemaster if 8208 measures well and and is less sensitive to charge weight variation. On the other hand, a new Bartlein barrel is starting to look pretty good, and that new Libby/bishop 5/9 ogive bullet is a proven winner. I need to give Del al call. On the border, in a state of approach avoidance, is some of that ugly, real teflon stock tape, and in slightly better shape is ordering some HBN ( of the correct grade) to try on my bags. Decisions, decisions. My problem is that I may not have a barrel that I want to last 5,000 rounds.

 

[jackie schmidt]

Nito Carbonizing

We have had high wear parts treated with this proccess in the past. The name is a little miss leading, this is actually classed as a Nitriding proccess.

For you old Hot Rodders, the Chevy "nitrided" crankshafts that we all used, (called "Tuftrided"), is quite similiar, it offers a surface with a high hardness and great wear characteristics while not affecting the basic properties of the rest of the part. Harnesses in the RC 60 range are achievable.

As was noted, this is achieved because the temperatures involved are lower than the transformation range of many alloy steels. On non alloy steels, (those that do not respond to to the standard quench and temper proccess to enhance properties), this is a non issue.

I suppose where the proccess we are discussing here is notable in that they have figured out a way to treat the ID of a barrel so that the nitriding is consistant throughout the bore.

I am tempted to send one of my 30 Caliber Barrels off and have it done. We have had long shafts Nitrided, (made from Astraloy), and they came back warped and had to be re-straightenned, but this was probably due to residule stress in the parent material.

I can see where this would be a great benefit it a barrel. It does offer resistance to heat, a supperior sliding surface, has a high hardness, and does not change the piece dimensionally.........jackie

 

[SGJennings]

There is information on this on 6mmbr.com including a place about 5 miles from where I'm sitting that will do a barrel for $87.

The story on 6mmbr was about a long range shooter that's been meloniting his barrels for quite some time. He believes it makes the barrels last longer.

Greg J.

 

[Greg Culpepper]

Decisions, decisions. My problem is that I may not have a barrel that I want to last 5,000 rounds.

Complaining about his tires, my friend George said "They won't turn and they won't stop, but the worst thing about them is it looks like they're gonna last forever."

I've shot with Joel for several years while he accumulated experience with his process and have a few anecdotal observations of my own to share (Joel, correct me if I'm off base).

It is important to get the barrel broken in before treatment because it won't change much after treatment.

A good barrel is going to stay good after treatment and for more than twice as long than if untreated.

Some of the same claimed benefits for moly (easier to clean, stays cleaner longer, a little more available velocity) seem to be present.

When a treated barrel finally quits shooting it doesn't taper off gradually, there is no doubt about the end of useful, accurate life.

Black barrels look really cool on benchrest rifles.

Black barrels look good on tactical rifles.

Chrome-moly barrels that won't rust are a good thing.

A very hard black finish on a carry gun is a good thing.

Setting a barrel back after treating is not an option.

Barrel makers and gunsmiths may be wondering how this might affect their business.

Greg

 

[Apollo]

I talked to Joel last night about this process. He was a very nice gentleman that was willing to answer any questions I had. He did this after his working hours and he called me back on his own phone. To me, since I do not know Joel personally, that takes care of the question "well, who the heck am I sending my barrel to?" As far as the process - he did mention you can not recrown or rechamber after this is done and he recommended doing it before any firecracking started. In terms of accuracy - he said it won't hurt or help - it just makes it last longer. Stainless Steel takes a different "recipe" than Chromemolly but the process will work on both. Hope this infomation helps.

Stanley

 

[chino69]

Nitriding barrel

I am tempted to send one of my 30 Caliber Barrels off and have it done. We have had long shafts Nitrided, (made from Astraloy), and they came back warped and had to be re-straightenned, but this was probably due to residule stress in the parent material.

I can see where this would be a great benefit it a barrel. It does offer resistance to heat, a supperior sliding surface, has a high hardness, and does not change the piece dimensionally.........jackie

Jackie,
Keep us posted if you have this done. I would like to hear from several knowlegeable people who have had their barrels treated before I would consider it.

Lou Baccino

 

[alinwa]

It is important to get the barrel broken in before treatment because it won't change much after treatment.


When a treated barrel finally quits shooting it doesn't taper off gradually, there is no doubt about the end of useful, accurate life.




Greg

So Greg,

Would it be fair to say that IN YOUR OPINION (I ain't gonna' hold you to it! ) having 100-200rds down the bore wouldn't ruin the process and perhaps would make it better? That one COULD find out if the barrel shoots?

And about the rapid fall-off of accuracy...... one of my questions has been "what happens when the stuff in the bore wears through?" Could it be that this would explain the rapid degradation once the bore has "holes" in the nitrided finish? Could the bore have hard and soft spots? Has anyone borescoped a shot out one yet?

Thank you

al

 

[Butch Lambert]

You can recrown if you cut through the hardening and remove a part of the barrel, say .050. You can then recrown. You might have to use an abrasive wheel to get through the hardness.
Butch

 

[Greg Culpepper]

So Greg,

Would it be fair to say that IN YOUR OPINION (I ain't gonna' hold you to it! ) having 100-200rds down the bore wouldn't ruin the process and perhaps would make it better? That one COULD find out if the barrel shoots?

Exactly. I base this not on my personal experience with Joel's process but my observations and conversations with him over a period of years as he gained experience with it.

[Annotation: Check with Joel, 100 rounds with something like a 22 Dasher would be much more than ideal.]

And about the rapid fall-off of accuracy...... one of my questions has been "what happens when the stuff in the bore wears through?" Could it be that this would explain the rapid degradation once the bore has "holes" in the nitrided finish? Could the bore have hard and soft spots? Has anyone borescoped a shot out one yet?

[Anotation: Check Joels post below, Additional info since Sept. changes the narative.]

At the F-Class nationals when I asked how he was doing Joel laughed and told me his barrel had just QUIT. Joel is always well prepared and wouldn't come to a nationals with a barrel that was winding down even when looking for experimental data for his process. Asked about a round count, my recollection is he replied in excess of 4000 rounds. That's with the 6x44 chambering that he has shot for years. I also believe that Joel had shot that barrel for a while before he treated it.
I'm supposing that when the throat begins to give up the progress of that deterioration is very rapid because once the hardened layer is breached the metal underneath leaves in chunks, not unlike what happens with chrome lined bores. I think the only place a "hole" will develop is the throat and there are not going to be any "soft spots". I bet Joel has spent plenty of time with a borescope. You've got his number. Give him a call.

Greg

 

[quartersnatcher]

Greg,
It is some time easier to point to equipment failures than pointing the finger back at myself for making stupid decisions. I had pressure problems at the last match in August due to two reasons old brass and 100 deg. temperatures. So what did I do? I dropped my charge .8 grains did not make new brass and was hot prepared for Nationals in September temperature was 30 deg. cooler so I lost tune. I was not prepared last year for the Nationals but you were. Good job, pays to just use one caliber and to know it inside and out. I would like to blame it on the barrel but this was not the case. I bore scoped every mm of the barrel but could not find a problem.

The 7 year old Kreiger barrel now has over 8000 rounds through it I will continue to test and evualiate.
I was home for Christmas for two weeks so I loaded my original load +.2 grains no pressure problems with new brass average .250" to .300" groups @100' for 10- 5 shot groups tested.
I have been in Mexico for the last 5 months now I am back in the US.
Maybe I can sneak up on Charles this year that is if I can stay in the country.
See Ya,
Joel Kendrick

 

[Greg Culpepper]

Hey Joel,

Welcome home! Thanks for the quick correction on barrel life. Sorry for my mistake. I'll notate my post so as to not misinform addtionally. Did I get the break-in issue right?
Do you have ANY experience yet with when/how a treated barrel gives up? Seems like I've indulged in some serious crystal ball/navel gazing on the barrel life/end of life issue.

Al, I'm changing my story. Now giving up suddenly is what might/should/could/is gonna happen at some future and currently unknown point. And thanks for not holding me to it.

Joel I'm ready to pick up where we left off with my order in September. As far as Charles is concerned, I think he's out of reach at the thousand yard line if we're coming at him with a 6. (I have a plan...) But he still has a few things to learn off a 600 yd bench and you and the rest of the crowd at Peidmont are great teachers.

Greg