Ray Brooks

jackie schmidt

jackie schmidt

New member
I would like for you to re-establish your discussion on LV for Score. It's your business why you chose to delete it, but I thought the discussion was very helpfull in ascertaining ideas as to what direction the NBRSA should take in its final decision concerning Varmint for Score as a Registered NBRSA Format...........jackie
 
I just felt that the thread had really run it's course as far as discussing a completely new class for score shooting . Obviously the concept has no support.

A new thread would probably serve your needs better than one that was so controversial and was becoming adverserial.

Good luck with the rules makers.

RB
 
Ray: When the phrase 'Light Varmint' is used, people think of a 10.5 lb. gun. As the thread progressed, it seemed that your proposed 'Light Varmint' class was quite different than simply a 10.5 lb. gun.

How about starting another thread, beginning with the outline of the gun...weight, caliber, etc, etc. and we'll take it from there? My only suggestion would be that if the weight limit isn't 10.5 lbs, don't use the term 'Light Varmint'...or 'Light' anything, as it just adds another layer of confusion.

As I've written before, I strongly support a seperate 'Light Varmint for Score' class in both organizations. provided there's no caliber restriction. If there's a rule about 'nothing larger than a 6mm', then the rules should state it's a 6mm class only. Nothing bigger.....or smaller.... allowed.

And remember....there's nothing adversarial about respectful disagreement. :cool: -Al

P.S. My 'dream class' to add to Score Shooting would be a class that encompasses the 16-17 lb. 'Light' rifles currently used in 600 and 1000 yd. competition. The guns are there and the competitors are looking for more venues to shoot. We could call the class 'F/X'.... or something along those lines. ;) :)
 
Remember George, the NBRSA is primarrilly centered around 100-200 yard Competition, mainly due to the number of ranges that have this capability. While 300 is part of the "point blank" game, there are only a handfull of ranges set up to shoot that yardage. As an example, the six ranges that host Gulf Coast Region Matches, (Tomball, Midland, Lake Charles, Denton, Seymour, and New Braunfels), go only to 200 yards.

I feel safe in saying that the vast majority of NBRSA 100-200 yard shootersd have no interest in going out further.

I think the true "Two Gun"format could simply follow the rules of the Group Shooters. One class at 13.5 pounds, and one at 10.5 pounds. The 13.5 pound wouldbe fired with any Rifle legal to be shot in NBRSA HV, and the 10.5 pound would be fired with any Rifle that is legal to be fired in NBRSA LV.

If a shooter so desired, he could build a LV in any caliber he wished to compete in both classes, or choose to build a LV and a true HV in any caliber he wished to compete in LV and HV.

This is a simple solution, it has served both NBRSA and IBS for years.

There is one other aspect of this that does change the game. If a shooter does decide to go with one Rifle, he would have to decide whether he wanted to put up with the recoil of the 30, or build a smaller caliber with less recoil. Or, he could choose to invest in a LV and a HV, in any caliber he chose.

I think this is what I amging to propose at our final Region Meeting. Of course, clubs could choose tosimply hold one day matches, either for LV or HV at the clubs discretion. I sort of like the one day matches, since we do have three ranges within a 3 hour driving distance that will be holding Varmint for Score Matches........jackie
 
Al, what happened is that as the 'discussion' progressed my own ideas evolved. That is why I changed "Light" to "Lite". There is NO reason that the rifle regs for score shooting have to exactly mirror the regs for group shooting. The regs should not eliminate the group guns from being competitive but the regs could be less restrictive thereby allowing a wider cross section of rifles to compete.

This is why I changed Light to Lite. Why limit it to 10.5 lb guns ? Why not allow 13.5 lb guns in "Lite" ? The same could be done to {H}VFS, up the weight limit to 17 lbs. Hell, make "Lite" have a 17lb limit. Then the fast twist 6mms could compete against the PB 22's and 6's.

There is obviously little support for a definitive 22/6mm class but IMO adding another class that 30's will dominate would be a complete waste of effort on the sanctioning body's part. This appears to already have 'nearly' happened once before and the people that built 10.5 lb 30's that were orphaned still have bad feelings about the situation. Going to worst edge scoring with no caliber rules would accomodate the 30 shooters. Of course they would feel like the 6mm guys now feel, "What's the point ?".

The last idea I put forth that didn't stay up long enough to get seen was one piece rests. If score is going to divorce itself from group rules why stick with the same rest and bag rules ? Allow one piece rests with delrin rubbing surfaces like you see in some rimfire classes. You could also allow delrin 'bags' on two piece rests. What I discovered shooting in 1 ARA match [ worst edge scoring ] is that you have to seek a higher level of precision. You are trying to shoot pinwheels on every shot. The margin for error is tiny unlike the current situation in VFS. The one piece rest helps acheive the required precision although they are by no means required.

As for starting a new thread [ from my perspective ] What's the point ?? IMO what is needed is a place in score for the 22 and 6 to be highly competitive at every match. To be able to set records. To create a new buzz in score shooting [ Worst edge scoring?? What's the strategy?? Should I try a 22PPC bbl??? Jeez, maybe a 20 or 17??? Wow, I set a new record!! ].

The vast majority of people on this site appear to be either in favor of status quo or else a new class for the 30's to dominate. Another thread started by me would just invite further pointed criticism that I don't feel like putting up with.

I should back button all this mess but I've got too much time invested in it :)


Jackie, please start your own thread and also please delete this one after you read this post.

Thanks
Ray

ETA: I am going to the range Thursday and I will take my 6mm and shoot some score targets and score them worst edge and see what it's like.
 
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Seems there is no way to please everyone. Best edge favors 30's, worst edge 17's. How about that reticle scoring device with a crosshair and judge score by center of bullet hole? Nope, too slow and still has room for argument. How about a competition where anything is legal, except muzzle brakes of course, and if someone is willing to make there own .50 BR. Have it where the only rule's are those on range safety. Let the competitor run whatever they want, and let real innovation show itself.
Oh yeah, that would NEVER work, since so much argument exists against the 30BR.

That is indeed the good thing about Rimfire BR, you can bring whatever you want, as long as it's a 22LR. Ha! Even those organizations are scared to let the .17's shoot, and all but one org is BEST edge scoring! Talk about 'set in ways'!
 
Every Game has it's rules

The tough part always is deciding on what the rules are. There has been a lot of whining about the 6MM's getting the short end since the 30 BR found it's way out of the Graveyard at Thurmont and out of the outhouse at Mainville. It didn't take those who made the signs long to make the switch :).

On the other hand, if there is a pent up group of folks who, for one reason or other, can't or don't want to shoot anything other than a 6 MM I am all for making a class for them. Give it a year and see if they will put their attendance where their sentiments seem to be. If they don't Cowboy Up then we can drift off to something else. We have given the AR Lads almost a year now and I haven't seen a lot of Cowboys, if you know what I mean Vern ;).
 
Al Nyhus said:
P.S. My 'dream class' to add to Score Shooting would be a class that encompasses the 16-17 lb. 'Light' rifles currently used in 600 and 1000 yd. competition. The guns are there and the competitors are looking for more venues to shoot. We could call the class 'F/X'.... or something along those lines. ;) :)
Click to expand...

I *almost* took a 17-pound 1,000 yard rifle to shoot against the unlimiteds at Rachel's Glen couple of years ago. That's a 200 yard, 10-shot group match. Finally decided I didn't want to put the rounds down the barrel competing against unlimiteds. Probably wise, but I still regret the decision.

I suspect there are a number of 600 yard benchresters who would have a go in a score match; who would be willing to go up against a .30 BR or 6PPC head to head. Of course, they are overweight, so you guys might not be willing, and few long-range shooters (not me) might be unwilling to take the muzzle brakes off.

But before making a cruiser class, just let the 600 yard benchrestes shoot heads up against you at 100 and 200. For fun, for bragging rights. They'll be shooting 6mm bullets, 95 plus grains. If enough show up, a cruiser class under the long-range rules (there aren't any except weight and a .40 caliber restriction) might make sense.

Remember Ferris Pindell's last idea about the perfect 200 yard Point Blank rifle?

P.S. It is funny. All you hear from the 600 yard crowd is that the .30 is dead, 6mms rule the roost. They shoot for both group and score, and a score win pays just as much as a group win. Hell, I'd even go to a heads up match as a spectator, just to see what happens.
 
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I would like to see only the following changes:
1. Straight LV (10 1/2 lb) class in score.
2. A magnified plug used (correctly) for scoring...as well, only the scorer and referee allowed during scoring.
3. Competitor #'s covered before they go to the scorer.
4. All calibers allowed in sporter class. (group)
 
george in KY said:
i was saying that it would attract NEW shooters to the game to go 300 yard score 17 pound class.........i know the 100/200 guys have no interest.
Click to expand...

Hold on there, George.;) A bunch of us just shot 300 at Wilmore. I thought it was great fun, however challenging. I am looking forward to doing more of it.

Cheers,
Keith
 
Did the 22 boys piss and moan this much when the 6 came to prominence?

"Sporter" does not allow 22, from where did that come?

AGENDAS!
 
After reading Ed's post I wanted to do some research on the 6PPC and the origins of the Sporter Class. I couldn't find the old article that I had in mind so I got out Newick's book and did a little reading. Pretty surprising that a lot of the points made today were also made back then, over 20 years ago.
 
So we are somewhere in the order of 20-30 years of 'set in ways'!
No wonder BR is a 'small crowd'. It only caters to those who want to do something JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!
 
Typically, when it comes to the Human Animal, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
I understand where a lot of the resistance to rules changes comes from ; national records and the whole hof thing. But we are not talking about changing any group rules, this is score. And Jackie is trying to get a score format going in an org that hasn't had one before. This means CLEAN SLATE.

For a State Championship match or a National Championship Tournament it would seem desirable to have at least a 2 Gun event. Their options are to copy the IBS [ ie Hunter and VFS ] or to forge their own identity. It seems to me that with the NBRSA's philosophy that 2 classes of all out benchrest rifles would be the correct choice. Having two distinctly different classes would be better than having 2 classes with only minor differences in equipment and no difference in target scoring. How about :

WEST

BEST

Worst Edge Score Target

Best Edge Score Target

Any cartridge, 3" forends, any scope, 17.5 weight limit, one piece rests, etc.
 
Longer range Score

We have shot a couple of matches shooting the 200 yard score target at 300 yards. We are limited to .22 centerfire cartridges, ie, .22BR, 22-250, etc. The rifles vary from about 17 to 28 pounds. It is a difficult match to shoot but lots of fun. Winning scores were right at 230. X count is way down.

Joe
 
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