Question about score shooting..

Dick....I think that your are absolutely right...almost! We all know that a 6 PPC and now the 30 BR are the dominant cartridges of Short range BR...However, if you take 50 of any of the above mentioned cartridges and 50 6 PPC and or 30 BR's and fire them in several matches like that, you may find that the "other" cartrides may just win a few, dominate...prolly not, so, given equal numbers, I dont belive that you could not win with others. No disrespect intended!
 
mwezell said:
I agree about the good barrels and bullets, Pete. Also, I contemplated a shortened 30-284 for a while. The trouble of making the brass was more than I wanted to deal with.--Mike
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The new 30 AR has taken the case thing away :). The Remington cases only need to be tweeked a bit to make them legal.

The problem comes, how does one gain an advantage from burning more powder and still ending up only going 3000 FPS? Why burn more powder?

My comment in another post about being locked into a box by the lack of a better powder selection is the problem. There aren't enough powders to allow us to gain much I don't believe.
 
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Pete Wass said:
The new 30 AR has taken the case thing away :). The Remington cases only need to be tweeked a bit to make them legal.

The problem comes, how does one gain an advantage from burning more powder and still ending up only going 3000 FPS? Why burn more powder?

My comment in another post about being locked into a box by the lack of a better powder selection is the problem. There aren't enough powders to allow us to gain much I don't believe.
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I believe that this (bold above) is what Al was trying to point out - in the straight 7.62x39, the limited powder selection may prove disappointing. The real issue: does one WANT to experiment (take the risks) , or, have something with which he can simply form brass and go compete?

The question then: will 82% of the BR capacity 'work' with the available powder selection? The answer may be yes . . . but it may also be no . . . and it may prove the 'cats meow', with Accurate 1680; H-110; Win. 296; etc.:eek: At only 82 % capacity, I'd bet on some serious investigation (fun for an experimental type, but maybe a wreck for one who wants to compete, 'right out of the gate type') - especially, when with most Lots of the 'suitable' powders (H-4198/N-130), most of us are always wishing for something just a little faster [burning], while maintaining the bulk-density. I don't believe the BR case is THE standard for precision, however, it IS a very good barometer for the 30 caliber capacity/bulk/burn-rate/expansion ratio puzzle. RG
 
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R.G. Robinett said:
I believe that this (bold above) is what Al was trying to point out - in the straight 7.62x39, the limited powder selection may prove disappointing. The real issue: does one WANT to experiment (take the risks) , or, have something with which he can simply form brass and go compete?

The question then: will 82% of the BR capacity 'work' with the available powder selection? The answer may be yes . . . but it may also be no . . . and it may prove the 'cats meow', with Accurate 1680; H-110; Win. 296; etc.:eek: At only 82 % capacity, I'd bet on some serious investigation (fun for an experimental type, but maybe a wreck for the wants to compete, 'right out of the gate type') - especially, when with most Lots of the 'suitable' powders (H-4198/N-130), most of us are always wishing for something just a little faster. I don't believe the BR case is THE standard for precision, however, it IS a very good barometer for the 30 caliber capacity/bulk/burn-rate/expansion ratio puzzle. RG
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I agree, Randy.--Mike
 
Randy, as you know, I started my 30 effort with a 30PPC, and ended up with a 30BR.

The smaller capacity cases might on paper be more efficient, but I think I have made the point that for pure accuracy, a 30BR will stand with anything, period.

The only reason I would want to shoot a smaller case would be if I did not have a Rifle with a .473 bolt face, and no way to cut rims down..........jackie
 
I agree that less powder than the 30 BR is going the wrong way for several reasons. Number one is the powder choices, and stated above by several, the less capacity you have, the less choices of good powders are available. I can even say that I have two different capacity cases that I shoot, the 30-30 and a .150" short 30-30 that duplicates the 30 BR capacity. The shortened 30-30 shoots basically identical to the full length, but I still prefer the full length case over the 30 BR capacity case, and this is simply because the full length 30-30 shoots just about any good 6 PPC burn rate powder that I can throw in it. The 30 BR capacity shortened 30-30 is at it's best with powders like 4198 or a few other powders of similar burn rate like N130 ans N200, so the choices are far more limited already. So why limit them any further? Also the 30 BR is at a slight disadvantage in the wind at 200 yards with most bullets when compared to the 6 PPC, so to slow the bullet down anymore is to give up the big hole advantage when the wind picks up a bit.

Michael
 
jackie schmidt said:
Randy, as you know, I started my 30 effort with a 30PPC, and ended up with a 30BR.

The smaller capacity cases might on paper be more efficient, but I think I have made the point that for pure accuracy, a 30BR will stand with anything, period.

The only reason I would want to shoot a smaller case would be if I did not have a Rifle with a .473 bolt face, and no way to cut rims down..........jackie
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Thank you for your input. You certainly proved that the 30's can be competetive with the 6's. I'm very certain that you'll be happy with a 30BR. It's a great cartridge. Is it the best? NOBODY knows. I know that the 30 Majors I've built and shot are competetive with any 30BR I've ever shot, and with less recoil. We're splitting hairs, but that's what we do, and what we should do to continue the search for the best of the best. Stagnation is the other option IMO. With the guns we have now, that's not a bad thing and most will shoot better than I can consistantly drive them. I think that holds true for most of us.--Mike
 
mturner said:
I agree that less powder than the 30 BR is going the wrong way for several reasons. Number one is the powder choices, and stated above by several, the less capacity you have, the less choices of good powders are available. I can even say that I have two different capacity cases that I shoot, the 30-30 and a .150" short 30-30 that duplicates the 30 BR capacity. The shortened 30-30 shoots basically identical to the full length, but I still prefer the full length case over the 30 BR capacity case, and this is simply because the full length 30-30 shoots just about any good 6 PPC burn rate powder that I can throw in it. The 30 BR capacity shortened 30-30 is at it's best with powders like 4198 or a few other powders of similar burn rate like N130 ans N200, so the choices are far more limited already. So why limit them any further? Also the 30 BR is at a slight disadvantage in the wind at 200 yards with most bullets when compared to the 6 PPC, so to slow the bullet down anymore is to give up the big hole advantage when the wind picks up a bit.

Michael
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I agree with you too, Michael. But, how many powders are considered to be optimum for the PPC. I'd say well over 90% of PPC shooters use n133. Same goes for the 30BR. I'd again say that well over 90% of those shooters use H4198. All we need is one powder, if it's the right powder for a given case.--Mike
 
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Pete Wass said:
Me too, I know a fellow who made one and it doesn't quite get er done! Pretty hard to beat the reguler ole 30 BR. Powder selection keeps all of us locked up in boxes. If I ever get another reamer I will go for thicker necks, however.
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Pete, my .334nk 30BR reamer cuts a chamber that is just as competitive as a .330nk chambered rifle.... I think, anyways....
Typically .001 is all that's needed to turn the brass necks to dimension and the majority of .30800 - .30850 diam buwets........... Also... The brass necks is tough.... When da brass hits the concrete............. Ouch.

cale
 
While reading all of this one thing kept coming to my mind. If the general thought is that the 7.62x39 is to small for optimal score accuracy, they why is a 30 whisper so freaking accurate? In my mind a 30anything is only optimal at 100 yards unless the conditions are perfect. I truly feel a 6ppc has an advantage at 200 and especially 300 yards for score shooting if there are any conditions at all anyway. I know most will disagree with what i just said, but i know several who wouldnt. I think the 30cal 115ish grain bullets suck in any kind of wind. A good tuned ppc will out shoot it on most days, i believe at 200 and 300 yards. Anyway, back to the 7.62x39. It looks like it would work to me. Heck some guys i know swear you have to open the flash holes in a 30BR to get them to shoot. I dont really know if that is truth or talk, but i did try it and it sure didnt hurt anything. So maybe the primer pocket in a 7.62x39 is optimal?? I dont know myself. I will soon have a place were i can do this kind of testing and do it properly so i am a little more than just taken by this idea to use a 7.62x39 for score. I think it just might work. I have a good friend that has a 30 whisper and man is that little dude accurate. Every bit as accurate at 100 yards than anything i own. No lie, that little cartridge will flat shoot at 100 yards. Like i say i might just investigate this a little. may even change the shoulder just a little and put a silly name on it. What do you think, how does a 30skeeter sound. LOL!!! " I know it sounds expensive" Have a great sunday fellas. Its hot and humid here in Illinois and i am staying under ground the rest of this wonderful day!! Lee
 
skeetlee said:
may even change the shoulder just a little and put a silly name on it. What do you think, how does a 30skeeter sound. LOL!!! "
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Sounds fine to me. If you put the time, money and energy into making it a viable and competitive cartridge, then place in the top 10 in SSOY points with it...it'll start sounding better all the time...It won't matter what ya call it. Just remember, you'll have to beat alot of good 30BR's and other 30's with silly names to do it.:D--Mike Ezell
 
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skeetlee said:
Like i say i might just investigate this a little. may even change the shoulder just a little and put a silly name on it. What do you think, how does a 30skeeter sound. LOL!!! " I know it sounds expensive" Lee
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Lee, at some point all the ideas, thoughts, pros and cons...need to become real honest to gawd parts and pieces and get wrung out to prove their worth. Nuthin' to it but to do it. ;)

It was 96 here today with 90 percent humidity. Spent an hour and a half with a wet rag over the barrel f-forming 50 of these:

"It'll never work!" :D :cool:

50pups.jpg
 
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