Need to know vs. Want to know

[dhenzler]

Having just read a thread about bore scopes I had to laugh. I have been shooting for 45 years without the benefit of a bore scope, and or runout gauges, and for that matter many fine tools. I am not a gunsmith by trade, however I am an Engineer and understand the value of knowledge to one who is attempting to build a better mousetrap.

Let me say that long before many of these tools were readily available to the consumer... people were shooting small groups. Admittedly group sizes have diminished some over thoe 45 years due primarily to better manufacturing tollerences and the knowledge gained by professionals who were analyzing the why some rifles shot better than others.

However before these tools were available, I shot groups that were in the quater inch category routinely with a Remington 788 with a Canjar Trigger and a Weaver T-16 scope. I played with loads and seating depth until I optimized my load, then proceeded to enjoy attempting to make a one hole group. I neither had any interest in tracking the throat wear or erosion. As long as the rifle continues to shoot tiny groups I am a happy man. When the rile would begin the shoot larger groups, I would make some evaluation of how many thousands of rounds had passed through the tube, and sigh as I remembered those tiny groups, and continue to shoot it until it was unuseable for the task at hand. Now if that is competitive shooting for score... it's one thing. If it's small group... that's another completely different thing.

What I am trying to say here it that I hope my comments create a change in paradigm for what you may think is necessary. Proven combindations of off the shelf rifles, scopes, and triggers will have relatively great results. Without the need for super expensive work. Now if you are a machinest, then the work is your pride, and having a level of perfection means something to you... and perhaps your machinest friends. But when you consider that some fine accuracy is obtainable from production rifles with slight modifications to trigger, and good sight bases and optics... Wow!

Let me close by saying I have amased a collection of Sako rifles, all of which shoot extreemly well for their barrel diameter and the fact that none of them have exotic triggers. All however have good optics, and factory Sako Rings mounted on the integral Sako dovetail. These rifles shoot amazingly well, and probably the worst group would be somewhere over .6". My 243 shoots one hole. I have Howa 1500's with button rifled barrels, A Savage F T/R with a broached barrel, and cannot tell any real difference between them as far aaccuracy is concerned. The Sako's have roto-forged barrles. I think the best thing to do is imperical testing which says it all. If the gun shoots well, the barrel is ok. If it doesn't clean too easily, it may have some wear, pitting, or frosting in the case of military guns. But I have some Swedish Mausers that are over 100 years old, unknown amounts of use, and still shoot about an inch at 100 yards with iron sights. I have no doubt that they would do much better with optics.

Analyzing what it took to get what you want is valuable information if you are manufacturing rifles. If you are s shooter. Then this information is "nice to know" but not something that you should spend $$$ to find out. Not when you can put $5 worth of your best load down the barrel, and see what it's doing. Spend you money and time on your loads, not worrying about shadows in your rifle barrel. If it shoots well, it IS good.

One Reporters Opinion... It's worth what you paid to read it!

David

This shot with a used Remington 788 (.223) with a stockTrigger, a 24X scope in Warne Rings mounted on a Picatiny Rail.

 

[crb]

Having just read a thread about bore scopes I had to laugh. .

You have been extemely fortunate to NEVER have had a duff bbl. Others aren't so lucky and a look through a borescope might have saved the guy with a duff bbl all the consumables he might have used trying to get the groups he was after. I saved at least 2 club members a bunch of time and money they would have wasted on a junk bbl. Both had severely screwed up chambers. One factory gun and one with a rebbl by a gunsmith with no borescope.

A borescope is nothing more than an expensive tool. It's a lot like a gun. If you find yourself in need of one nothing else will do. Until then you can laugh at the dummies that are prepared

 

[jackie schmidt]

To the originol Poster:

This is a site primarilly dedicated to Benchrest Shooting. That is Benchrest witha capitol "B". In this game, everything counts.

I have a feeling, based on what you said in your post, that you are ignorant of the entire concept of Competitive Shooting in the Benchrest Arena........jackie

 

[4Mesh]

David,

If you take the best of the rifles you've got, to a match with a large group of serious BR shooters, you will find out how much improvement there is to be had. Now, if you truly are competitive, and continue on, you'll start accumulating tools that help you learn more about what's happening. You'll also start taking a dim view of anything that's inexplicable. "Ehhh, that's good enough" won't be in your vocabulary any more.

Now, if you're one of those people who claims to compete, but really doesn't care if they get beat every time out, then ok, by all means keep bringing your substandard crap to the line and keep gett'n beat. But then lets not slight the people who went the extra mile trying to finish first. Especially if they did. In my competitive shooting days, I've seen a damn site more money spent on winning than the chumpchange cost of a borescope. I won't say that in the same position I would do the same, but, I certainly can respect the dedication and investment it takes to bring such an expenditure to fruition. And believe you me, spending money without investing blood, sweat and tears will not win in BR. I'm gonna guess you're the type who would believe that, but it's not true.

 

[Boyd Allen]

David,
I have shot many groups that were satisfyingly small with tuned up factory rifles. None of those rifles would have been competitive at a registered benchrest match, where the conditions were less than horrible. I started out with a 788 chambered in .308, a Lee Loader, and a plastic mallet...and had a lot of fun. If your point is that one can have a lot of fun extracting the available accuracy from a variety of rifles I agree, just don't expect to do well in registered competition with any of them, unless they are purpose built, to accepted standards, and fed ammunition of similar quality.
Boyd

 

[Charles E]

...unless they are purpose built, to accepted standards, and fed ammunition of similar quality.
Boyd

Well said. And to assure "acceptable standard," as Jackie so often points out, the work must be checked. That takes tools -- instrumentation -- not targets.

 

[dhenzler]

To the originol Poster:

This is a site primarilly dedicated to Benchrest Shooting. That is Benchrest witha capitol "B". In this game, everything counts.

I have a feeling, based on what you said in your post, that you are ignorant of the entire concept of Competitive Shooting in the Benchrest Arena........jackie

Touche!

However what I was attempting to say was... unless you are building the firearm yourself, and want to learn about what makes a rifle barrel accurate... it's a waste of money and effort. If a barrel shoots well... then shoot it. Examining it for flaws may result in an attempt to make it better, which may result in something you don't expect.

I have a 280 Remington that I had built by Fred Huntington's Gunsmith Tommy... I used a Heavy Sporter contour Douglas Supreme barrel, and asked him to "NOT" blue the bore. I even told him how another friend had avoided bluing his bore. However the bore got blued, because the wooden plugs kept on blowing out. Never less the custom barreled 280 is likely one of my most accurate rifles, and shoots one hole groups at 100 yards without the necessity of a warming shot.

I believe that you can determine what is and what is not accurate without instruments other than to measure your results. Looking down the tube may be a good idea when buying a used rifle, I certainly do this every time I buy used. But whether you buy an off the shelf, and modify, or have it made... you don't need to look at the work if you've hired the right gunsmith.

Or are you asserting that everyone in Benchrest shooting does their own work?

David Henzler dhenzler@sonic.net

 

[IndianaJames]

Touche!

Or are you asserting that everyone in Benchrest shooting does their own work?

David Henzler dhenzler@sonic.net

Well, this is the Gunsmith forum.

Jim

 

[akajun]

Well Im gonna be the odd man out here and agree with David. While I dont shoot Benchrest I do shoot Highpower and Mid Range Prone. I have seen too many superior shooters with "mediocre" rifles or their spare guns outshoot lesser ranked shooters with top dollar guns and all the latest equipment.

I myself have won matches with my spare ar15 with 6800 rounds down the bore on a Bushmaster barrell beating out many WOP and Compass Lake guns. Why, I dont screw around with "gadgets" or "load testing". I shoot proven loads, loaded carefully, and shoot them a lot. IN Service rifle there is a statement "if ya want to go distinguished you kneed to be ass deep in brass". I think that statement can be applied to all disciplines of shooting. When I started regularly practicing instead of changing variable that probably didnt matter, I made master, bump into High Master every know and then, and started earning leg points. Look at the AMU, they shoot factory loaded ammo and will beat anyone on the line with it simply because of the fact that they are shooting every day.

Now I know what many of you here are going to say, Benchrest is about groups, you need to do load development, leave nothing to chance. I agree to a point, but I also believe that shooting technique, wind calling, and experience plays a large part of group size. I think a lot of shooters, especially mediocre shooters or novices, would do better to shoot more and tinker less.

 

[Charles E]

While I dont shoot Benchrest I do shoot Highpower and Mid Range Prone. I have seen too many superior shooters with "mediocre" rifles or their spare guns outshoot lesser ranked shooters with top dollar guns and all the latest equipment.

... but I also believe that shooting technique, wind calling, and experience plays a large part of group size. I think a lot of shooters, especially mediocre shooters or novices, would do better to shoot more and tinker less.

I do shoot benchrest, and the form I shoot the most has some comparison to Highpower, as we shoot for both group and score at the same time. This is 1,000 yard shooting. I believe the highpower 10-ring is 2 MOA -- 20 inches. The highpower X-ring is 1MOA - 10 inches.

Contrast that to benchrest. The 10-ring is 7 inches, the X-ring 3 inches. The 9-ring, by the way, is 13 inches, smaller than your 10, but larger than your X. To get to a 20 inch ring, we'd be in the 7-ring. I had to go look it up, but my 6-match score aggregate last year was 93.6667. In your sport, that would be OVER A HALF YEARS AGGREGATE of 100 with mostly X's. And that was only good for second place -- first loser.

Can you read a 0.5 MPH wind shift over 1,000 yards? I can't. How much practice does that take? But it is enough to take you out of our X-ring, with most chamberings.

What I would suggest is that this is not a simple matter of scale, it is difference in kind.

Come shoot with us. You might enjoy it. We'd enjoy having you. You might also change your mind about the need for a rifles' capabilities.

Best,

Charles

 

[akajun]

Charles, I have observed a benchrest match, and when I shoot Mid Range , Don Geraci is often shooting "Belly Bench Rest" also called F Class. I have seen him shooting a worn out barrel, and smoke everyone with a new rifle and little experience, Don has been doing this for a year or two and is definatly "ass deep in brass". All Im saying is that there comes a point in time that you need to stop tinkering and go to the range. Experience beats equipment anyday.

I dont read the wind that well, I am working on it, I usually shoot 190 or so but I have managed to shoot 196 9x at 600. Luckily I have a pretty strong offhand and rapidfire so I dont usually go into the backfield too many points down.

Thanks for the invite. I have thought about shooting Belly benchrest, but until I go Distinguished Im only shooting service rifle. I only come to this site because of the wealth of chambering information on the site.

 

[dhenzler]

Well, this is the Gunsmith forum.

Jim

Just because you read it, don't mean you are one... Benchrest shooters included...

Curious Indiana James... is that your best group? Looks like you had a flyer! The rest went into a neat looking hole... at what... 100 yds.

If you look at the group out of my bench rested 788 factory gun... at 250 yds. it would work out to be .14" center to center at 100 Yds. Which reinforces my thing about being excessive about details that really don't matter.

Given a better trigger I suppose I could shrink my group a bit more...

So Jim... are you a gunsmith, a build it yourself shooter, or off the shelf?

David

 

[Charles E]

J
If you look at the group out of my bench rested 788 factory gun... at 250 yds. it would work out to be .14" center to center at 100 Yds. Which reinforces my thing about being excessive about details that really don't matter.

Now I'm going to be a bit nasty. You'll have to forgive us. Here's the background: If I had a dollar for everyone who came on Benchrest Central & said their factory rifle would group .14, or even .20, I'd be a rich man. Every time, we suggest they come shoot with us. They'd make Hall of Fame in one year, and could then go back to something more challenging.

But you know what? They never show up.

Edit: Don't know where Newport, North Carolina is, but come shoot 1,000 yard benchrest with us at Camp Butner. I'll stake you 10 points out of 100 for score in heavy gun, or 3 points out of 50 in Light gun, and put up $100 I'll beat you. Or if you want to shoot short range, Rockingham Gun Club holds club-level matches April through October. Since I don't have a "factory rifle," you'll have to shoot against a benchrest rifle, but that shouldn't bother you. I won't spot you any at 100 or 200 yards -- it isn't my game -- but I'll still make the $100 bet I'll beat you. Five 5-shot targets, 250 total points possible.

And yes, I build many of my own rifles.

* * *

By the way to Mr. Cajun: F-class uses a bigger target than benchrest. It's a lot closer than highpower, but still bigger, at least at 1K. And Geraci can shoot; he's a Hall of Fame benchrest shooter. But I doubt he could take Henzler's 788 and beat me, esp. at 1,000 yards. I don't shoot the mid-range stuff like 600 much, but I'd still be willing to put a small wager on myself against Geraci if he had to use that 788. Small, because there *are* some excellent factory guns -- Rifle accuracy is a bell-shaped curve; it is just that the x-axis plots so much longer with factory rifles. The best one is probably chambered in .458 Win Mag, so we'll never find it.

 

[Marc]

Now I know what many of you here are going to say, Benchrest is about groups, you need to do load development, leave nothing to chance. I agree to a point, but I also believe that shooting technique, wind calling, and experience plays a large part of group size. I think a lot of shooters, especially mediocre shooters or novices, would do better to shoot more and tinker less.

Thats all fine and dandy until you get to a match with shooters who shoot and know their business. Showing up with a factory rifle that shoots a .140 lucky group once in a while dosen't cut it. The rifle has to have the capability of shooting in the .1's every group no exceptions, then it's all dependant on the shooter. A good shooter with a bad rifle is as useless as a bad shooter with a good rifle. If your rifle shoots 1 flier out of every 25 shots your hooped. You show a 3 shot group that is average for that distance, can you go out and shoot 5 five shot groups one after the other timed in whatever wind condition all in the .1's with no flyers? I can't but thats the challenge of short range benchrest. Unless the gun is perfect in every way you've lost before you start.

 

[mike in co]

me thinks the man is more misplaced than i am.....( some people will appriciate that)
first he is posting in a BENCHREST site, second in a GUNSMITH forum, and he does neither, but wants to make claims about fine shooting without every tool in the book.

just illogical, esp from an engineer.

he is talking factory rifles, mainly high end....woooopeeeeeeeee....
so it is unlikely he has run into a dog...but they do exsist...and pumping money in bullets and powder down a dog is just throwing money and time away.

he comments on score and group....but has no guns for either and is happy with a three shoot , none touching group at 256 yds...

does anyone know what three shot benchrest matches are held at 256 yds ???
he has no idea of what current benchrest requires.


mike in co

 

[Mike Bryant]

... I think a lot of shooters, especially mediocre shooters or novices, would do better to shoot more and tinker less.

I think you are absolutely right on that point. The best way to improve in any shooting sport is bullets down the barrel. I was talking to Allen Arnette at the Super Shoot one year. He made it into the benchrest hall of fame in one year. He practiced every day the wind was blowing. Maybe not a lot each day, but a group or two at least. His results speak for themselves. It took a lot of bullets, lot of powder and a number of barrels to do it, but he did.

 

[.25shooter]

If you look at the group out of my bench rested 788 factory gun... at 250 yds. it would work out to be .14" center to center at 100 Yds. Which reinforces my thing about being excessive about details that really don't matter.

Given a better trigger I suppose I could shrink my group a bit more...


We also have shooters like this in Iceland. Funny how they never show up @ matches though. I guess they wouldnt think it was fair of them.

It was very fortunate for the Benchrest community that you didnt show up at Supershot with your 788 factory gun, you would have cleaned up and put every custom gun and barrel maker out of buiseness.

Heck ! if you had showed up there with a jewel trigger on it you would have set a new world record.

Thank God for small favours.

 

[jackie schmidt]

The Cruel Reality

One of the cruel realities of Benchrest is the shooter is no better than the Rifle sitting in the bags.

You can take the Worlds most proficient Benchrest Shooter, give him a Rifle that is locked into about a .300 agging capabi;lity, and that is all he will do. Period. And by all accounts, he will go home with nothing more than a "thank you for coming"..........jackie

 

[mike in co]

looking at your target, i think you have shrunk it already....
it looks closer to .17/.18 than a .14.....
the gap between the top hole and the lower left in the pic appears to be more than one bullet dia. bullets make smaller holes than thier dia.....i think it is some where around 0.18 moa..and then there is the whole 3 shot part...which is not done in competitive br.....
i think if you ask around here, if a br shooter shoots two shots and they are not touching( in practice), they don't bother with the third or more shots...its a waste of time and ammo.



mike in co
.....

If you look at the group out of my bench rested 788 factory gun... at 250 yds. it would work out to be .14" center to center at 100 Yds. Which reinforces my thing about being excessive about details that really don't matter.

Given a better trigger I suppose I could shrink my group a bit more...

David

 

[Mike Bryant]

One of the cruel realities of Benchrest is the shooter is no better than the Rifle sitting in the bags.

You can take the Worlds most proficient Benchrest Shooter, give him a Rifle that is locked into about a .300 agging capabi;lity, and that is all he will do. Period. And by all accounts, he will go home with nothing more than a "thank you for coming"..........jackie

And conversely, you can take the best rifle sitting on the line and put it in the hands of a neophyte shooter and he may luck out and win, but more than likely he'll wind up middle of the pack or towards the bottom. It takes both, a good shooting rifle and a shooter who is on top of his game that day to win.