NBRSA stepping on IBS Toes?

J

James A. Kelbly

New member
In some threads posted earlier, one NBRSA director and one possible new director of NBRSA have stated that they would like to see NBRSA take on Varmint for Score and add it to NBRSA’s current Hunter Class competitions. Now don't you think this would cause problems with IBS? In the one post they talk about how IBS and NBRSA need to have reciprocity or get back together. Do you really think that if NBRSA were to add the same programs as IBS Hunter rules that this would not piss off IBS? IBS is getting a foothold all over the country now due to their Hunter program, and if NBRSA were to add the same, would not some or all of these ranges start holding NBRSA Hunter matches since these clubs hold NBRSA group matches now. This could possibly happen and IBS would lose these new ranges and members.

Can someone explain to me how this would want IBS to work with NBRSA? If you read the objectives of NBRSA it states that NBRSA is a group shooting. Why would NBRSA want to do this to another organization that supposedly NBRSA is trying to work with?

Here in the Eastern Region of NBRSA we are having the IBS Hunter Nationals at Easton, Ohio, in Michigan; there are at least four clubs that were holding IBS score matches. So there are plenty of opportunities to shoot all disciplines of Hunter competitions in the Eastern Region. So why would NBRSA want to add these programs and cause problems with another organization when things are going good.

Varmint for Score is already being offered by IBS and is available for all clubs to run. I have for years told NBRSA clubs that they should run IBS Score Matches as it gives the shooter and clubs more opportunities to shoot.

Gee maybe we should start shooting the 10.5lb classes three times at the Group Nationals as this is the same thinking as adding IBS programs to NBRSA. The opportunity is already there for those who want to shoot Varmint for Score

Oh and by the way I am a member of both IBS and NBRSA, even though I have never shot in an IBS event. I just believe both associations need our support. I think our directors need to read or reread the objectives of NBRSA along with the bylaws.

Jim
 
Interesting thought process.

Jim,

It is good to see that we have guys out there thinking about these things. It gets a good dialogue going.

I noticed the stated objective on the new NBRSA website and my initial reaction was that it was a change from what I had remembered seeing in the rule books that I have. (I am at work and don't have access right now to those books). The website shows a rule book that was revised in June 2008, but minutes that only go up to the meeting in November 2003. Maybe Wilbur can get this fixed soon. I will look tonight at what the rule books that I have at home say. It did intrigue me when I saw it, but it really caused me no pain; here is why.

I don't believe that anyone who looks at the concept of "precision" would have any issue in that the best way of determining precision is by shooting groups. In that regard, the NBRSA mission steps on no one's toes at the IBS. The IBS's mission statement (on page 4) shows one of its stated objectives to "achieve extreme accuracy".

"Precision" and "accuracy" are related, but not exactly the same thing. "Precision" means not to have too much variation shot-to-shot, while "accuracy" means you are trying to hit something you are aiming at. You cannot have "accuracy" without "precision". In that respect the objectives of both organizations are complementary, but not exactly the same. When I try to get a score gun ready to compete, I will shoot groups with it to see whether the gun looks tuned. If you were to discuss this with anyone who competes regularly, I would believe that most of them will tell you the same thing.

By the way, how does the "precision through shooting groups" objective of the NBRSA affect the Hunter Class guys in that organization? Well, that's a question that the Directors will need to address at some later date.

Jim, I am impressed with the analysis that you put forth in this thread. It is the type of thought process that I would expect to see coming from someone in the either an Officer's capacity in the IBS or a Director's capacity in the NBRSA. Have you ever thought of following in your father's footsteps in serving in a Director's capacity at some time? You would be very good at it. I also would have expected Hobie to respond to this question in his capacity as our current Director.

Please keep the dialogue open. It is very refreshing to see that you are a member of both the IBS and NBRSA.

See you at the IBS Group Nationals which are being held at your range in August.

Joe Krupa
 
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Nbrsa

The first mandate of the NBRSA refers to "accuracy".
The second mandate refers to "precision by shooting Groups".

That being said, I agree with Jim. There is no reason for the NBRSA to delve into Varmint for Score. For instance, I could have the Tomball Gun Club, (a NBRSA affiliate), petition the IBS for club membership status, and start holding IBS Score Matches in short time. I see no reason to "force" the NBRSA to change it's Format ..

The NBRSA Board of Directors made it plain a few years back when it voted to not institute Varmint for Score as a NBRSA Sanctioned Event. True,there have been some turnovers in the Boards Members, so the attitudes might have changed a little.

I still see the Organizations taking different roads. The IBS will continue to be more of a Score oriented Body, and the NBRSA a group shooting Entity.
In my opinion, it would be the best of both Worlds..........jackie
 
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Joe Krupa said:
I don't believe that anyone who looks at the concept of "precision" would have any issue in that the best way of determining precision is by shooting groups.
Joe Krupa
Click to expand...


i think you can get away with this statement on this board and in this context, but i know lots of shooters that would dissagree with it as an ultimate statement of precision or accuracy.

as a simple example.....show me group shooting at an egg shoot ? ONE PRECISE SHOT PERIOD.

NOT TRYING TO ROCK YOUR BOAT....just keeping things in context.

mike in co
 
I would say...

... that hitting the egg the first time would be "accuracy". But, hitting the egg the second time, in the exact same spot (if that is physically possible) would be "precision".

Actually, I've never shot at an egg, especially at those extended ranges that you guys are able to shoot them. I would say that me hitting an egg would be defined as "pure luck".

My boat is not rocked.
 
If we are going to thrash some, and brainstorm some, lets get back to the discussion of the redundant Sporter Class.

I was just looking at a 1986 PS magazine and one of the agenda items was to eliminate the Sporter class! Ain't gonna' happen is it???
 
Jerry

I have gone back and read many of the BOD's meetings minutes in the Archives. One thing stands out. The more things change, the more they stay the same. You can take some of the "discussions" from the 50's and 60's and plug them into 2008, and they seem current........jackie
 
In the real world itty bitty groups don't mean Squat------if you don't hit what you aim at. I shoot IBS 1K and have discussions with many of the ole timers about the futility of shooting "small groups" on the edge of the target. I always shoot for score and if the small groups come with it then great but every bit of training I have ever received focused on hitting what I was aiming at. Guess it is a good thing I am not the “Benevolent Dictator” of IBS!!:D
 
For you all

jackie schmidt said:
I have gone back and read many of the BOD's meetings minutes in the Archives. One thing stands out. The more things change, the more they stay the same. You can take some of the "discussions" from the 50's and 60's and plug them into 2008, and they seem current........jackie
Click to expand...

Who think there is no precission in score shooting, hit that little dot 25 times and see how small the group is. Generally speaking, it takes at least 20 and usually 23 or more dots to win a VFS match now- a- day and there is no oportunity to "Agg in" if one happens to let one slide out. I have seen , over the years, a number of analogies of the group sizes, score vs group but it's tough to measure because one must shoot on the same day in the same confditions to establish the difference.

There is no conflict now between NBRSA Hunter shooters and IBS, why would there be any conflict if NBRSA offered VFS? I think the truth is NBRSA would see a slide in the numbers shooting group vs score, like what seems to be happening in IBS. VFS can only HELP, in my opinion and I fail to see any conflict. It simply gives we shooters more choice.
 
itty bitty groups

"In the real world itty bitty groups don't mean Squat"

Well Boss, in the real world of NBRSA 100/200 yard Benchrest Competition itty bitty groups are the only thing that means Squat...as long as you hit somewhere on the record target!

Ryan
 
Well Hoss

RLHBUSL said:
"In the real world itty bitty groups don't mean Squat"

Well Boss, in the real world of NBRSA 100/200 yard Benchrest Competition itty bitty groups are the only thing that means Squat...as long as you hit somewhere on the record target!

Ryan
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Your arttitude is why you guys are what you are and we are what we are. Some of the best group shooters who have ever lived shoot with us on a regular basis and while they win their share, they don't exactly embarass everyone most of the time, they aren't shooting perfect scores.
 
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Nbrsa-vfs

I want a VFS class in NBRSA. Our local range just started having Score matches, NBRSA score matches, well of course this happens right after I build a VFS gun to shoot around the PNW. So now I had to buy a HBR gun so I can shoot heads up with at our local range. This silly battle cost me big bucks (my gun and a diamond for my wife to keep it equal).
 
R.DesJardin said:
I want a VFS class in NBRSA. Our local range just started having Score matches, NBRSA score matches, well of course this happens right after I build a VFS gun to shoot around the PNW. So now I had to buy a HBR gun so I can shoot heads up with at our local range. This silly battle cost me big bucks (my gun and a diamond for my wife to keep it equal).
Click to expand...

Sure am glad I never got that crap started:D
Please don't give my wife any ideas.:eek:

James
 
Some of these posts are just silly. NSOLWFMO. IBS and NBRSA offer exactly the same type of events in 600 and 1,000 yard benchrest. Far as I can tell, that hasn't pissed off either IBS or NBRSA; certainly not the shooters. We shoot at each others matches. At long range BTW, you shoot for both group and score.

Yeah, I know this is the "Centerfire" Benchrest forum. Maybe it should be renamed "Point Blank"? Or "Broadside"?
 
Be a lot simpler if there was just one organization.

One set of rules.

Another 2-3 gun classes.

Sporter de-6mm-ified too...

Not saying to tear up old records. Just to make new ones.

Isn't that what the sport is about, when it all boils down? Accuracy.
 
No doubt this thread is tied to declining memberships in NBRSA. I think
present econonmics has weighed heavy against NBRSA. If you are not
envolved in group competition,no need to join. IBS on the other hand appeals
to shooters as well as people who may never attend a match, let alone
shoot in one. Its ironic that both organizations are made of the same people , yet only one is growing. To the dismay of many, P.S. opened there doors
to other shooting sports. .A sound business move on there part. Many
belong to IBS just for that.
VFS matches can realistically be held anywhere,and they are.
The issue is that moving backers are needed for everthing else. Many small
clubs hold non registered matches, but are poised to join something. The
natural move then is IBS.
I enjoy group shooting more than score, but I can see many new shooters
punching holes in IBS score tgts. Some go on to BR. These new shooters
are the life blood of both IBS and NBRSA. Clearly there is a greater attraction
to IBS
 
The goal of both the NBRSA and the IBS should be to increase the number of shooters through organized shooting opportunities. Neither organization should worry or care about what the other is doing.

I have never understood why some folks are compelled to bring both groups together. What good would this serve. Both groups are equally capable of promoting the shooting sports. This should not be obstructed in any form.

I am surprised to see a comment of this type coming from you, Jim. The Super Shoot, which is the largest BR match in the world, is neither an NBRSA or IBS match. What is the purpose of your scratching at this scab?

I believe the IBS should do everything it can to increase its numbers. I believe exactly the same thing of the NBRSA. As long as both organizations are focused on this goal everything will be fine. As soon as they start worrying about each other their energy is wasted.

Regards,
Eric
 
The real reason

The real reson for this is to bait Krupa into saying somthin stupid which aint happenin.

Hobie needs to say somthin about what he thinks about this.

Its all about the vote.

What happend to Lou beatin me up in the last thread? I dont shoot any more too expensive at least I live in the ER.

Len Smith
 
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