Doug Penttinen
"TESTED TEXAS TUFF"
I think we should send a letter to Pat Ferrell and let her know that Mad-Dog wants to take over as NBRSA News Editor and chief. I'll bet he can get it looking better than a PTA newsletter !!!!
M
Maddog
Guest
"newsletter"27.00
Doug,
Seriously, what would you call a couple pieces of white paper, stapled together with some match reports???? Where are the equipment lists???? Calling it a glorified PTA newsletter may be a bit of a streatch. Both organizations charge approximately the same amount for membership. IBS says approximately $27.00 goes to pay for the Precision Shooting magazine. What do I get for my NBRSA membership fee??? A couple pieces of paper stapled together with some match reports. Where is the money going???? The office person has nothing to do or say about the composition or content of the newsletter. Just stating the facts. Case closed.
Doug,
Seriously, what would you call a couple pieces of white paper, stapled together with some match reports???? Where are the equipment lists???? Calling it a glorified PTA newsletter may be a bit of a streatch. Both organizations charge approximately the same amount for membership. IBS says approximately $27.00 goes to pay for the Precision Shooting magazine. What do I get for my NBRSA membership fee??? A couple pieces of paper stapled together with some match reports. Where is the money going???? The office person has nothing to do or say about the composition or content of the newsletter. Just stating the facts. Case closed.
Doug Penttinen
"TESTED TEXAS TUFF"
Hey Good morning Mad-Dog...
Well I was just joking with you. I understand and I feel the pain as well. Especially now that it costs $100 for a 2 day registered match... That in-itself is steep.We have lost alot of shooters over the last few years and does not seem to be getting any better..
My thought is the editor only prints what he gets from the match director so I think that is a good start. Not sure what it costs to print the NBRSA News but I agree on some of the issues and more info and more-so on the Web-Page for the NBRSA. Some of the match directors do a great job in sending in the information and if the information is getting there but not printed that becomes a different sore spot.
You are right about the membership application fees and what we are paying for. I don't think the case should be closed ! We all are a benchrest shooting family no matter how you cut it.... I know we are all grown ups but as much money is spent on our equipment, travel accomodations, gas to get to the matches, match fees, lunches, dinners and everything else associated with this sport all we have is our NBRSA News Letter and it should be done to the best it can be...Since we are the only folks that read it and and even know what bench rest shooting is...Like my buddy said "If you want to clear a room, just start talking about bench rest". It is hard enough to promote this weekend game and we don't get paid for it so we need all the help we can get...I love bench rest shooting and heading out to the matches. I think I might just put out a post asking the match directors to put in a little more time on the reports and see if I get screamed at very loud...What are they going to do fire me.....
Anyway it looks like I just wrote a novel but I do feel the frustration as alot of you do and hope it might get better.
Doug in DAllas
Well I was just joking with you. I understand and I feel the pain as well. Especially now that it costs $100 for a 2 day registered match... That in-itself is steep.We have lost alot of shooters over the last few years and does not seem to be getting any better..
My thought is the editor only prints what he gets from the match director so I think that is a good start. Not sure what it costs to print the NBRSA News but I agree on some of the issues and more info and more-so on the Web-Page for the NBRSA. Some of the match directors do a great job in sending in the information and if the information is getting there but not printed that becomes a different sore spot.
You are right about the membership application fees and what we are paying for. I don't think the case should be closed ! We all are a benchrest shooting family no matter how you cut it.... I know we are all grown ups but as much money is spent on our equipment, travel accomodations, gas to get to the matches, match fees, lunches, dinners and everything else associated with this sport all we have is our NBRSA News Letter and it should be done to the best it can be...Since we are the only folks that read it and and even know what bench rest shooting is...Like my buddy said "If you want to clear a room, just start talking about bench rest". It is hard enough to promote this weekend game and we don't get paid for it so we need all the help we can get...I love bench rest shooting and heading out to the matches. I think I might just put out a post asking the match directors to put in a little more time on the reports and see if I get screamed at very loud...What are they going to do fire me.....
Anyway it looks like I just wrote a novel but I do feel the frustration as alot of you do and hope it might get better.
Doug in DAllas
pbike
New member
Has the NBRSA or any of it's directors approached "Handloader" or "Rifle" magazines? They seem to be small enough for us, yet have the content that BR shooters look for, also other shooters that like the content in these magazines may see "8" pages of ours and want to give it a try...Could mean more members? It seems that if the IBS can get 8 pages in PS, the NBRSA should be able to get some pages in another Magazine. With the NBRSA now holding score matches and not respecting IBS recoprocity, membership has had to go up. That new membership added to the continuing membership of group shooters has to mean more money earmarked for the "newsletter". Are the members getting their money's worth?
Doug Penttinen
"TESTED TEXAS TUFF"
Thats sounds like a good idea but there are some of us who do not partake in IBS and are not subscribers to IBS. Also Precision shooting would need to change up there format on how they list shoots which in my opinion needs some works in itself... NOT trying to start a war on either side here but look at the shoot page's. It all boils down to what you think you want and who wants to belong to what group NBRSA/IBS.
Some people like steak and potatoes and others like salads. It is a tuff thing no matter what and I guess you can't please all of us but it does seem a little more attention to detail in our NBRSA mag and web-site could be used...
Some people like steak and potatoes and others like salads. It is a tuff thing no matter what and I guess you can't please all of us but it does seem a little more attention to detail in our NBRSA mag and web-site could be used...
All great ideas! Why not make the NBRSA news web based and get rid of the expense of publishing. Maybe put it on the web site! And for those that don't want to own a computer, they can pay for a hard copy or have their kids print out a .pdf hardcopy for them. Lots of options. I guess it just depends on how bad NBRSA wants to keep up or even lead the path of the shooting sports. I guess this kinda ties in with recruiting new shooters and increasing membership. Its amazing what can get done when a few people put there heads together to solve issues.
Doug,Francis and Marty.
Pat Ferrell is gone and has nothing to do with the nbrsa newsletter.The articles in it are done by whomever wants to send them in not just the match directors.I know because I did most/all of the Sacramento reports for 600/1000 yard benchrest.
I never saw anything in print and when I asked why I was quickly volunteered as the match reporter.
As to getting involved with Precision Shooting Magazine you can forget that idea completely!!!!!
I wanted to run an ad in the magazine about the Nationals and send them some match results to help promote nbrsa benchrest and was told by the upper end of the nbrsa not to do it.The upper crust at the nbrsa has an axe to grind with the IBS and it was a subject best left alone.
As to your belief that they want to promote the sport you are once again sadly mistaken.Our national venues are all three days long so we don't draw in more of the weekend shooters.This came from the top tier as well and was even told to my 76 year old father when he asked why we are holding 3 day matches.They don't want more shooters they want more wins for themselves so there name is always in print.
One of them started his own hall of fame after not being able to get into the regular hall of fame run by don creach.If you ask him he will tell you that to your face and has on several occasions.
The president of the organization is not at all interested in 600/1000 yard benchrest and that is fine but as the president he should support it and he openly doesn't do that.I called him on the phone without ever having met or seen him before and was told all the 600/1000 yard clubs could leave and that wouldn't bother him at all.With that type of attitude at the top the organization is doomed for failure.
At the recent 1000 yard nationals with the vice president and the regional director both shooting the match they refused to let the match carry over onto monday due to rain like is printed in the rule book.They cheated the shooters who drove down from Nevada,Idaho,Arizona,Oregon,Washington and California out of a National level event and then they had the gaul to post on the nbrsa website that it was done after talking to the shooters.
I was there in the pits and nobody talked to anybody! Four people made the call two of whom are nbrsa match directors one is our nbrsa regional director and the other is our nbrsa vice president.
Basically they threw away the rule book and did whatever they wanted to do while being told the match must carry over.
A protest and special meeting were requested by myself and sent to each and every nbrsa director and to date not a single one of them has said a single word about what has happened or the special meeting.
Our regional director and the vice president must have been burning up there cell phone minutes calling the other directors and covering there butts on this one.
If the Board Of Directors are collectively too afraid to do there jobs they should all resign immediately!!!
If the Board Of Directors can't respond in any fashion to a shooters request for a special meeting after 2 months have passed because somebody closer to the top has influenced them they not only should resign they should go to Coward School to see if somebody there can help them grow the pair of balls they are lacking!!!!
A shameless bunch who's class is showing.
Lynn
Pat Ferrell is gone and has nothing to do with the nbrsa newsletter.The articles in it are done by whomever wants to send them in not just the match directors.I know because I did most/all of the Sacramento reports for 600/1000 yard benchrest.
I never saw anything in print and when I asked why I was quickly volunteered as the match reporter.
As to getting involved with Precision Shooting Magazine you can forget that idea completely!!!!!
I wanted to run an ad in the magazine about the Nationals and send them some match results to help promote nbrsa benchrest and was told by the upper end of the nbrsa not to do it.The upper crust at the nbrsa has an axe to grind with the IBS and it was a subject best left alone.
As to your belief that they want to promote the sport you are once again sadly mistaken.Our national venues are all three days long so we don't draw in more of the weekend shooters.This came from the top tier as well and was even told to my 76 year old father when he asked why we are holding 3 day matches.They don't want more shooters they want more wins for themselves so there name is always in print.
One of them started his own hall of fame after not being able to get into the regular hall of fame run by don creach.If you ask him he will tell you that to your face and has on several occasions.
The president of the organization is not at all interested in 600/1000 yard benchrest and that is fine but as the president he should support it and he openly doesn't do that.I called him on the phone without ever having met or seen him before and was told all the 600/1000 yard clubs could leave and that wouldn't bother him at all.With that type of attitude at the top the organization is doomed for failure.
At the recent 1000 yard nationals with the vice president and the regional director both shooting the match they refused to let the match carry over onto monday due to rain like is printed in the rule book.They cheated the shooters who drove down from Nevada,Idaho,Arizona,Oregon,Washington and California out of a National level event and then they had the gaul to post on the nbrsa website that it was done after talking to the shooters.
I was there in the pits and nobody talked to anybody! Four people made the call two of whom are nbrsa match directors one is our nbrsa regional director and the other is our nbrsa vice president.
Basically they threw away the rule book and did whatever they wanted to do while being told the match must carry over.
A protest and special meeting were requested by myself and sent to each and every nbrsa director and to date not a single one of them has said a single word about what has happened or the special meeting.
Our regional director and the vice president must have been burning up there cell phone minutes calling the other directors and covering there butts on this one.
If the Board Of Directors are collectively too afraid to do there jobs they should all resign immediately!!!
If the Board Of Directors can't respond in any fashion to a shooters request for a special meeting after 2 months have passed because somebody closer to the top has influenced them they not only should resign they should go to Coward School to see if somebody there can help them grow the pair of balls they are lacking!!!!
A shameless bunch who's class is showing.
Lynn
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Match Directors should be the sole responsible party for dictating what happens at their matches> period. No bashing needs to be done. For those that don't like the way things are run then start your own shoots > many have. This is a hobby and should be fun, if you are not having fun then find another venue.
Doug Penttinen
"TESTED TEXAS TUFF"
Delete they will.....
I agree on the most part and who knows where BR will go and for how long...Again I will stick to my point only for NBRSA because I do not partake in the IBS. Both sides of the fence needs shooters to make our sport work. I stand corrected on the article writing and it is not only the match director who sends them in..No matter how the dice rolls we as shooters like to see our name in the magazine whether we shot great or if we shot a TRAIN wreck. Take a look at some of the match posts here on BR.com.. Everybody like to here someone say great shooting and congrats to you and yes there will still be those who can not get enough pats on the back as well. That is in everything we do so. I will not ever get hall of fame points and I for one don't care about that anymore. All I want to do is meet people and beable to shoot well and enjoy our God given and man made freedom for which so many have died for..
The NBRSA is a good foundation and we need to back it the best way we can and the same goes for the IBS.. That is also why we have this forum to promote shooting, friendship and free communications with each other...If I get the chance when I go to some of the GCR matches this year I may write in some match reports for the magazine to see if I can do it as well. I sure don't have a problem with trying.....
Just one persons opinion....Maybe I should just stick to writing construction daily reports...
I agree on the most part and who knows where BR will go and for how long...Again I will stick to my point only for NBRSA because I do not partake in the IBS. Both sides of the fence needs shooters to make our sport work. I stand corrected on the article writing and it is not only the match director who sends them in..No matter how the dice rolls we as shooters like to see our name in the magazine whether we shot great or if we shot a TRAIN wreck. Take a look at some of the match posts here on BR.com.. Everybody like to here someone say great shooting and congrats to you and yes there will still be those who can not get enough pats on the back as well. That is in everything we do so. I will not ever get hall of fame points and I for one don't care about that anymore. All I want to do is meet people and beable to shoot well and enjoy our God given and man made freedom for which so many have died for..
The NBRSA is a good foundation and we need to back it the best way we can and the same goes for the IBS.. That is also why we have this forum to promote shooting, friendship and free communications with each other...If I get the chance when I go to some of the GCR matches this year I may write in some match reports for the magazine to see if I can do it as well. I sure don't have a problem with trying.....
Just one persons opinion....Maybe I should just stick to writing construction daily reports...
Doug Penttinen
"TESTED TEXAS TUFF"
Now there is some tuff love but I agree with most of this.
Francis
I used to post on another website were the vice president of the nbrsa would call the websites owner right after a match ended and would give him a full report.On that other website they had a post about the nbrsa 2010 nationals and after the word got out it was all huge a scam the owner of that website quickly changed the title to a match in Sacramento.He forgot that all the shooters in attendance paid for the Nationals not a match in sacramento.I sent him a private message asking why he had changed the title and he replied he didn't want the nbrsa to sue him.He also said in a post for all to see he would pull all of my posts as I requested this of him.He never kept his word so I ended up pulling 1343 posts one by one.
I fully expect this post will get pulled as the nbrsa board of directors doesn't want everyone to know what a bunch of sniveling cowards they truly are.
When an organization makes a simple mistake that is one thing but when two match directors a regional director and the vice president of an organization refuse with red faces and plenty of screaming to follow there own rules it shows all the new shooters the true character of the club they are thinking about joining.
A clear and level playing field is not on there agenda.
We will also not here a rebuttal from anyone of the coward currently on the board of directors because the facts in print speak for themselves.
Lynn
I used to post on another website were the vice president of the nbrsa would call the websites owner right after a match ended and would give him a full report.On that other website they had a post about the nbrsa 2010 nationals and after the word got out it was all huge a scam the owner of that website quickly changed the title to a match in Sacramento.He forgot that all the shooters in attendance paid for the Nationals not a match in sacramento.I sent him a private message asking why he had changed the title and he replied he didn't want the nbrsa to sue him.He also said in a post for all to see he would pull all of my posts as I requested this of him.He never kept his word so I ended up pulling 1343 posts one by one.
I fully expect this post will get pulled as the nbrsa board of directors doesn't want everyone to know what a bunch of sniveling cowards they truly are.
When an organization makes a simple mistake that is one thing but when two match directors a regional director and the vice president of an organization refuse with red faces and plenty of screaming to follow there own rules it shows all the new shooters the true character of the club they are thinking about joining.
A clear and level playing field is not on there agenda.
We will also not here a rebuttal from anyone of the coward currently on the board of directors because the facts in print speak for themselves.
Lynn
Marty
This sounds good on a forum like this but in reality is useless dribble.
The regional director and vice president of the organization TOOK OVER THE MATCH.I can post for all to see what the regional director had to say in his e-mail but before this thread gets deleted suffice it to say he admits it was all his fault and not the Match Directors fault.
As to starting your own matches that is not possible because of range availability on the weekends.As you shoot in sacramento you should already know this so I guess your post was some attempt to defend the corruption that took place?
As to this being a hobby and fun you are correct that it should be but you haven't said what should happen about those in charge who refuse to follow there own set of rules.
Please post what you would have the board of directors do to the regional director and vice president for all to read.
Lynn
P.S. Here is a piece of the nbrsa Mission Statement
Our Mission
To standardize on a national basis the entire Bench Rest Shooting program so that targets, ranges, scoring methods, records, and match procedure will be uniform and comparable;
Marty what part of this statement holds true for the 2010 Nationals and what should be done about it?
Or do you think we should all keep our mouths shut because we atleast have a place to shoot?
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Lynn,
This is probably a waste of time, but let me ask you, what is your strategy?
It appears to be sometime like this: "Every time I see 'NBRSA,' I'm going to bash it." We get the point. By in large, you've repeated your charges -- both the valid points and the complaints -- so many times I no longer want to read them.
When the topic isn't NBRSA, you have useful information to share. I don't always agree with you, but it is still useful. My guess is if you just keep bashing "NBSRA" the people who pay attention to you will dwindle.
Remember most of us are shooters. I shoot NBRSA in the Southeastern region when I want to shoot group. Only group shoots around. I shoot IBS in score and long range for the same reason. I suspect that's pretty common: one shoots what's there.
One thing I have noticed: If a shoot goes sour, it is usually the club that is to blame, rarely the sanctioning body. The club puts on the shoot. If the bench and relay assignments are squirrely, it's the clubs fault. If they haven't provided contingency planning for bad weather, it is the club's fault. If they bow to pressure from some famous (or infamous) shooter, it's the clubs fault.
In other words, I don't really shoot "NBRSA." From time to time, I shoot matches at Dublin, Rachels' Glenn, Rockingham, and Unaka. I also don't really shoot "IBS." I shoot Black Creek, and NC 1000 BR. Why? Because they're there.
I've seen charges of cheating at several clubs. Sometimes it got resolved, sometimes not. It was always the club's problem, they are the interface with the shooters. I've seen those charges grow and get repeated at other clubs. I always ask "How do you know?" The answer is always a lame "Because some guy said so." I've stayed away from a 600 yard club because the first time I went there, if one of their club members didn't win, the suspicion of cheating was levied. I've never been back, even though I'm told they cleaned up their act, and it is now one of the finest 600 yard clubs around. My choice, my loss.
To the extent NBRSA is broken, your writing won't fix it. It is an insider's organization -- the lack of information on the internet is evidence enough enough of that. You do have to get the publication to stay current. You get the publication only by joining NBRSA. Last time I saw membership figures for the entire NBRSA, it was about 1,500 people. You could fit every NBRSA member in the world inside most high school auditoriums.
This is probably a waste of time, but let me ask you, what is your strategy?
It appears to be sometime like this: "Every time I see 'NBRSA,' I'm going to bash it." We get the point. By in large, you've repeated your charges -- both the valid points and the complaints -- so many times I no longer want to read them.
When the topic isn't NBRSA, you have useful information to share. I don't always agree with you, but it is still useful. My guess is if you just keep bashing "NBSRA" the people who pay attention to you will dwindle.
Remember most of us are shooters. I shoot NBRSA in the Southeastern region when I want to shoot group. Only group shoots around. I shoot IBS in score and long range for the same reason. I suspect that's pretty common: one shoots what's there.
One thing I have noticed: If a shoot goes sour, it is usually the club that is to blame, rarely the sanctioning body. The club puts on the shoot. If the bench and relay assignments are squirrely, it's the clubs fault. If they haven't provided contingency planning for bad weather, it is the club's fault. If they bow to pressure from some famous (or infamous) shooter, it's the clubs fault.
In other words, I don't really shoot "NBRSA." From time to time, I shoot matches at Dublin, Rachels' Glenn, Rockingham, and Unaka. I also don't really shoot "IBS." I shoot Black Creek, and NC 1000 BR. Why? Because they're there.
I've seen charges of cheating at several clubs. Sometimes it got resolved, sometimes not. It was always the club's problem, they are the interface with the shooters. I've seen those charges grow and get repeated at other clubs. I always ask "How do you know?" The answer is always a lame "Because some guy said so." I've stayed away from a 600 yard club because the first time I went there, if one of their club members didn't win, the suspicion of cheating was levied. I've never been back, even though I'm told they cleaned up their act, and it is now one of the finest 600 yard clubs around. My choice, my loss.
To the extent NBRSA is broken, your writing won't fix it. It is an insider's organization -- the lack of information on the internet is evidence enough enough of that. You do have to get the publication to stay current. You get the publication only by joining NBRSA. Last time I saw membership figures for the entire NBRSA, it was about 1,500 people. You could fit every NBRSA member in the world inside most high school auditoriums.
Doug Penttinen
"TESTED TEXAS TUFF"
By reading these posts my intension was to only find away to get our NBRSA News flyer, magazine, PTA newsletter or what ever you want to call it a little more up to the standards of reporting and informative that it should be for us...This started out as to find a way to make that better so we have more to read and see in the magazine and that was it..Not to call out the big dogs on the NBRSA staff. That should come at other meetings and if this post does get pulled then so be it. But once again all this shooters from Texas was trying to post is to try and make or help make the magazine better....No more / No less
Good shooting to all
Good shooting to all
Charles E
I got up this morning in preperation for some football games and read this thread.I responded to some of the questions posed as I was a writer for the nbrsa newsletter.I have never read one of your match reports in the newsletter.
As to bashing the nbrsa.If you call the truth bashing them I am bashing as everything written is the truth and everyone there knows it.If you don't like the truth don't read my posts as I don't sugarcoat anything.As to dwindling viewers I didn't realise I had any viewers in the first place so no harm no foul on dwindling.
As to the charges of cheating I can assure you I would never post anything that everybody doesn't already know.It is a fact that one of the top dogs with the nbrsa traded places with another shooter in order to shoot on the first relay and set a world record.I am noit supposed to name names but if you send me a private message I will.Maybe you can have Marty contact the guys involved to see if its true as he shoots with them as well.
In a nutshell I fully enjoy competition benchrest.I like 99% of the shooters and do all I can to support the sport and keep the rest of the globe informed as to what is taking place on the westcoast.
Unfortunately that also means if we have a rotten apple in the ranks he gets called out.
I also used to like some of your earlier writings on the longrange end of things before you got what I call politicaly correct.
As to your assumption that this is a club problem you are dead wrong in my opinion as this is solely/strictly a rather well known problem with the nbrsa.
Ask yourself this.
Why doesn't a single member of the nbrsa board of directors post what took place and what was done to solve the problem? I sent each and everyone of them a packet months ago and not a single reply to date.If you look this up in the rulebook or simply ask Wilbur he can tell you all you need to know about special meetings.
There silence speaks volumes about the nbrsa and there character.
Lynn
Lynn
I got up this morning in preperation for some football games and read this thread.I responded to some of the questions posed as I was a writer for the nbrsa newsletter.I have never read one of your match reports in the newsletter.
As to bashing the nbrsa.If you call the truth bashing them I am bashing as everything written is the truth and everyone there knows it.If you don't like the truth don't read my posts as I don't sugarcoat anything.As to dwindling viewers I didn't realise I had any viewers in the first place so no harm no foul on dwindling.
As to the charges of cheating I can assure you I would never post anything that everybody doesn't already know.It is a fact that one of the top dogs with the nbrsa traded places with another shooter in order to shoot on the first relay and set a world record.I am noit supposed to name names but if you send me a private message I will.Maybe you can have Marty contact the guys involved to see if its true as he shoots with them as well.
In a nutshell I fully enjoy competition benchrest.I like 99% of the shooters and do all I can to support the sport and keep the rest of the globe informed as to what is taking place on the westcoast.
Unfortunately that also means if we have a rotten apple in the ranks he gets called out.
I also used to like some of your earlier writings on the longrange end of things before you got what I call politicaly correct.
As to your assumption that this is a club problem you are dead wrong in my opinion as this is solely/strictly a rather well known problem with the nbrsa.
Ask yourself this.
Why doesn't a single member of the nbrsa board of directors post what took place and what was done to solve the problem? I sent each and everyone of them a packet months ago and not a single reply to date.If you look this up in the rulebook or simply ask Wilbur he can tell you all you need to know about special meetings.
There silence speaks volumes about the nbrsa and there character.
Lynn
Lynn
T
TedH
Guest
Doug,
All in all I am not unhappy with the NBRSA. My intention was to make things better though not really the magazine. I was really hoping for an improvement in the website.
As a culture many of us are used to accessing information over the internet and many people who may want to shoot in the event may not be members of the NBRSA and would only join once they got to the event, which is what I do sometimes.
One way to shoot the NBRSA site ahead of the IBS site or the Super Shoot site would be to set up for online registration and entryfee payment for national events.
Thanks for taking the time to review the issue.
Doug Penttinen
"TESTED TEXAS TUFF"
Just trying to make a small point not page 3 of 3 thats for sure...I'm not unhappy with the NBRSA either and as long as we have a GCR and matches to attend I will be burning powder and punching primers...
jackie schmidt
New member
Every organization has problems. How a certain organization handles problems goes a long way in instilling member confidence.
I am contemplating doing something that will in all likelyhood cause a minor storm in the NBRSA, while at the same time delegate me to 'untouchable ' status in the caste system of that organization. .........jackie
I am contemplating doing something that will in all likelyhood cause a minor storm in the NBRSA, while at the same time delegate me to 'untouchable ' status in the caste system of that organization. .........jackie
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IBS, NBRSA, NFL they are all great, I like shooting and I really like Benchrest. It is a good hobbie, 98 percent of the people are exceptional human beings, takes a lot of practice to be good > its hard, its challenging, there is no money to be won, just a pat on the back and respect of your peers. Why anyone would want to be a part of an organization they don't like is beyond me. I agree with Doug and Charles and Jackie let's move forward and have fun doing what we love. We are a small group, we need to stay united, build relationships and improve the sport.