NBRSA and good standing members

jfesi said:
That is a picture from the firing line at Bench Rest Rifle Club (BRRC).
I have thought long and hard about responding to this post, but I just reread Chris's post and feel that I need to respond. Again, these are my personal feelings and I do not speak on behalf of BRRC.
I find the statement that BRRC is an unsafe range completely ridiculous. The clubs responsibility is to have a system in place to notify shooters that the range is cold. This is accomplished at our club by a series of red lights at every other bench across the firing line, and a warning horn that is placed at the 100 yard line so that it can be heard on both the firing line and out on the range. There is a red safety light within 20 feet of every bench on that firing line.
It is the shooters responsibility to make sure that the safety lights are not on before firing a shot. If a shooter on the line cannot take the five extra seconds to look to the right or left of their bench to make sure that the 30 red lights on the range are not on before firing a shot, then they are unsafe. Range safety starts with the shooter.
Respectfully,
Joe Fesi
Soon to be Former Match Director BRRC
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Joe, I obviously disagree strongly. And if you think your range is safe then start looking at the past events. As I have said, I have been downrange when a shot was fired, my son had a shot go past him 15 feet or so, and I have seen 5 other occasions when shots have been fired during ceasefire excluding myself.

So now you have to start asking yourselves, does the average shooter simply not care about safety? I doubt that. Does the average shooter get a kick out of shooting during a ceasefire? I doubt that. Those could be the only other reasons why people shoot during ceasefire.

So all you need to be looking at is one thing. Do we have problems at this range or not? And you undeniably do. And you have more problems at BBRC than any other range that I have every been to. But I have not been to all.

I am not trying to defend what I did. I am still sick at the thought of it.

But your range is NOT SAFE. And you can argue all you want but if one cannot see the lights unless you are looking out for them and one cannot hear the buzzer (which is not always on) which is downrange (why I don't know) and local members of your club consider that range to be unsafe then I think you need to start figuring out a way to prevent something nasty - otherwise it will happen. And you guys have had plenty incidents over the years and not one single thing has been done to correct the situation. It would be considerably dumb to sit back and not accept any responsibility. And when it comes to safe, it is like being pregnant, you are either safe or not. I can't see why one would not ensure safety at a premium location like STL.

Now I have heard through the grapevine that BBRC does accept that something needs to be done and will be fixing things. And that is what I wanted to hear. Not some public statement to cover up.
 
Boyd Allen said:
Fyi
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Thanks for posting Boyd. This setup obviously does not work. You cannot see the lights when approaching the benches. No one approaches the line from the angle that the pic is taken.

Take a pic from behind the shooting line and you will quickly see. As I have said before, why would one not put all the flashing lights at head height rather than under the eves. Why not use LEDs in today's age. Have them flashing at head height and all is golden.
 
rwnoel said:
wrt to people not paying attention to the safety lights, would it make sense to have at least some of the lights mounted lower than up under the the roof line (7'+) so that they are more in line with people's line of sight?
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Now someone is thinking straight !
 
brcman said:
Chris- The basic rule of handling firearms is a responsibility of the SHOOTER to make sure he/she is aware that the situation you are in is safe to shoot- that is YOUR responsibility. Half of those safety lights are at eye level and as far as the horn that blows- my ears are 74 years old and I think that horn is loud enough to be annoying, others complain about it being annoying also. I think you are off base on some of your other negative comments also.

Like Joe Fesi I do not speak for the St. Louis Benchrest Rifle Club either.

Wayne Corley
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Half of those lights are not at eye level Wayne. Many of them are washed out. If you approach the benches with your ear protection, which you should do at all times, you will NOT hear the horns. I have excellent hearing and I do not hear them and they are not always on.

Guys, I am not trying to do battle with anyone here. All I want is for no one to get hurt or to be sent home like me. Trust me it is not fun. I would easily regard my incident as a low point in my life. Never thought it would happen as I am a safety nut. And I have seen this happen to top shooters at the STL BBRC.

Even if nothing happens and these posts draw people attention to the problem then we have achieved something maybe. But not everybody ready this. There is absolutely no excuse to not recognise and fix the problem.
 
"one cannot see the lights unless you are looking out for them"
Here is the biggest issue. It is the shooters responsibility to be looking at those lights every time that they are getting ready to pull the trigger on our firing line. Believe me, I am not against any additional safety measures, but to call our range unsafe is just not true.
Joe Fesi
 
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jfesi said:
"one cannot see the lights unless you are looking out for them"
Here is the biggest issue. It is the shooters responsibility to be looking at those lights every time that they are getting ready to pull the trigger on our firing line. Believe me, I am not against any additional safety measures, but to call our range unsafe is just not true.
Joe Fesi
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Joe, if there are so many infractions, and those infractions can lead to injury or death, then the range is unsafe. Whatever the reason.

And just so you know, a very well know Hall of Fame Shooter arrived at the line the very morning after I was disqualified and put his bolt in his rifle and realised at the last moment that there was a ceasefire. That was within 24 hours of my incident! And, being a friend of mine, he knew all about the incident. What does that tell you?! Safe range?
 
Safety

Shooter Responsibility is a basic concept to Range Safety. Not all shooters are responsible people.
Thats why a Full time Range Officer,and visual and audio warnings, will greatly assure the safe handling of firearms.

In my 30 years of practical firearms training(before I retired) I have seen my share of accidents happen, when all of the above was in place.

My advice is, accidents do happen on the range. Keep your head out your ass and mind on range safety.



Glenn
 
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Range Safety

Chris Harris said:
Joe, if there are so many infractions, and those infractions can lead to injury or death, then the range is unsafe. Whatever the reason.

And just so you know, a very well know Hall of Fame Shooter arrived at the line the very morning after I was disqualified and put his bolt in his rifle and realised at the last moment that there was a ceasefire. That was within 24 hours of my incident! And, being a friend of mine, he knew all about the incident. What does that tell you?! Safe range?
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Chris, I have been reading you posts and I take offense to your accusations that BRRC is one of the most unsafe ranges in the country and it is all the ranges responcibility when someone shoots with the "lights on"
We take safety very seriously, probably more than any range you have ever been to. Which is why all new members coming in go through a full day safety orientation. It is amazing to me we have over 1500 members and dont have an issue with them, its only during the competitions we have an issue.
Maybe all competitors coming in need to sit through an all day safety orientation before they are allowed to compete!
Your statements about friends doing the same thing is interesting, I would like to talk to your friend who is a member here and you state says it happens all the time, since they are violating a BRRC policy - which states - "If you witness a rules violation you must report it to an RSO or a member of the BOD". When are the shooters going to take responcibility when they make a mistake. All I read is you bashing BRRC as unsafe. We choose a recreational activity that is inherently dangerous, engaging your brain before going to the line is not an option it is a requirement.
I doubt if we put a continuous LED light the whole length of the range with police sirens going that someone wouldnt sit down and shoot with them on.
It bothers me deeplpy that you have chosen to go to a public forum (everything is true on the interent)and bash BRRC because you had a moment that you had a lapse in judgement. We are having a BOD meeting tomorrow, I have printed out your postings here and will bring them before the BOD for review and discussion.
Respectfully,
Dean Weston
BOD, BRRC
 
This thing is being overthought so I am going to reduce this it to a level for easier understanding.

A city, county, state or fed government gives us roads to drive on.

The St. Louis range gives you a place to shoot.

The city, county, state or fed government puts safety lights (traffic signals with red and green lights) where needed for DRIVERS TO LOOK AT TO DETERMINE IF HE/SHE SHOULD GO OR STOP.

The St. Louis range puts up lights for SHOOTERS TO LOOK AT TO DETERMINE IF HE/SHE should shoot or not.

So, it is just like driving a car- YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE LIGHTS.

Wayne Corley
 
This thread probably doesn't need its 159th post but here goes. I may be a part time BR shooter, but I did make it to STL twice this year so my experience is recent. It is, in my opinion, the nicest range in the country and the work Scott and Joe and company have put into it is incredible. Every year I come back, something cooler has been added. I have never felt the range to be unsafe and I've been downrange when it was opened up for firing but did not begin as I started yelling and screaming. I was heading down to 200 yards and blocked from view by the 100 yard frames. That's a human error as I think all these other events have been. I have no problem seeing lights as I walk up to the benches and the buzzers are annoyingly loud and I double my muffs with plugs. I do not have superhuman hearing. Thanks to all you STL folks for the effort, it's much appreciated.

Scott Smallwood
 
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No one is allowed to sit at or get close to his or her bench until down range is made completly safe. Should someone fire when they are not supposed no harm done other than recieving allot of friendly but extrmely serious comments coming from everyone up and down the line. We have specific directions coming from the range master prior to the shooting taking place and once in a while someone gets a little ahead of the fire command. It's also quite an embarrassing event for the guilty one who did so but not at all unsafe but just an honest mistake.

JLouis
 
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At WWCCA, we have a Designated Range Safety Officer.....And on Fridays(practice day) he is there to watch the range....Now it's only 18 benches....
Maybe, the club might have a few guys who need some work hours...??? They could watch they range....
After SAFE Shooters, lights, flashing lights, Horns,...what else is there ???
Tim B.
 
Hunter said:
How do folks set flags?
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range is made safe and closed down. as asked before what does the nbrsa do about a serious safety violation, not the host club but the organization? seems you can get tossed out of nbrsa for a lot less than a shooting when range is closed
 
For the record when Chris had his accident at St Louis I had just walked up to the benches, heard the buzzer, saw the lights, looked around, saw the folks down range. So I sat my ammo on the bench and stepped back. At about that instant he fired, fortunately the folks down range were well away from him but still, my first thought was that he must have been preoccupied or distracted. I have average hearing for a 60 year old and was constantly irritated by that buzzer, the lights grab me too. I don't think the range is unsafe, not at all!!

It's unreasonable for Chris to blame the range, he just made a mistake. Joe and Scott do a great job!
 
I have over 600 employees and we are part of a large organization. Relative to safety, we went from one of the companies poorest performing businesses to one one of the best. One simple message has transformed our business, Always Aware. Be aware of what is around you and your fellow employees.

The best guarding and safety measures will not protect someone who is not paying attention to their surroundings.

Sorry Chris, your a good guy, let it go. I have been shooting StL for 7 yrs. Lights flashing,,,, don't shoot.

Mark
 
One thing "everyone" can do to help with safety is to keep an eye open when the line is shut down for shooters that come up to the line at that time. If a person looks as though he may be getting ready to insert a round or a bolt, let him know that the line is cold. I've been down range twice at BRRC when a round was fired when the range was shut down, most recently in June. It is very noisy down there. Just help each other out if possible.

For Mark

I know of a company safety motto that goes like this: Don't put your hands or feet anywhere you wouldn't put your penis...........

Later
Dave
 
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Dave Coots said:
One thing "everyone" can do to help with safety is to keep an eye open when the line is shut down for shooters that come up to the line at that time. If a person looks as though he may be getting ready to insert a round or a bolt, let him know that the line is cold. I've been down range twice at BRRC when a round was fired when the range was shut down, most recently in June. It is very noisy down there. Just help each other out if possible.

For Mark

I know of a company safety motto that goes like this: Don't put your hands or feet anywhere you wouldn't put your penis...........

Later
Dave
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"If it will cut steel, meat won't even slow it down"

As for this discussion, we can all agree with the fact that if a shooter fires a round during a cease fire, it is a grievous act.

What we can't agree on is the consequences of such act.

BRRC has it's rules. They are, in this case it seems, not up for negotiation. The best we can hope for in this case is that the infraction never happens again.
 
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By chance does the range have a baffle system that does not provide a full veiw of the area down range. I did not realize someone was down range when the shot went off is why I ask. We have an older competitor who just can't hear and our range does not have lights or buzzers. When ever a cease fire is called and if someone is having going down range everyone has to unload their rifle leave the breech open leave their bench and step behind a yellow painted line. Our older friend has to be tapped on the shoulder to clear the line. Why would someone in this case be down range if someone was still sitting at the bench would it not be up to the range master to insure it was safe to go down range prior too. Knowing the shot went down range was not purposely done its a hard call to the punishment because of and no fault of the range itself. Not putting the blame on anyone just wondering why there were those still sitting at the bench and is this quite typical no matter the location of the match being held.

JLouis
 
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