NBRSA and good standing members
- Thread starter James A. Kelbly
- Start date
Chris Harris
Member
Dean,
Please understand that nothing I have said is meant to "offend" or "bash". I am a huge supporter of the BRRC and have attended there many times and want to shoot many matches there in the future. I believe it is one of the nicest and well run ranges in the world. There is not one thing that I can complain about other than the safety issue. I made my posts in response to other people's posts on this matter of me getting disqualified.
Not for one moment am I suggesting that I am not responsible for what I did and the fact that it is my responsibility to check that the range is hot before shooting. I AM GUILTY. No questions there. So if any of my previous posts indicate otherwise then that may be because I was focused on the safety issues.
All I am saying is that these incidents have taken place 7 times at BRRC that I have noticed. And that includes once when I was down range and my son was down range. Every single time this has happened I never got angry with the shooter making the mistake. I am pretty certain that everyone was a level headed experienced safety conscious person. So with that said, the BRRC can state all day long that it is the shooter's responsibility to check, and IT MOST CERTAINLY IS, but shots still get fired. And one day there very possibly will be the wrong set of circumstances - like say some fiddling with their flag tails at 150 yards while a shooter is shooting at a target board at 100 yards which is blocking his view of the shooter and you will need to call an ambulance. What one has to do is simply look at the results and less time at whose responsibility it is. We know that the shooter is responsible. I was a fool to do what I did. Lapse of thinking, whatever you want to call it, I am sick about it. Not sure what else I can say. I am certainly not walking away from that.
I have understood that the management of the range is wanting to do something and I massively encourage it like I have been doing so vocally for several years. Although one can never even protect against everything I do feel that low-cost flashing LEDs on every second poll at eye height would be close to impossible to miss at any time of the day.
So, again, please do not be offended and I am not bashing. You guys have a great range, great management and a beautiful facility. I am trying to help. But I am not going to accept that BRRC is considered safe when so many of these incidents happen.
G
Gary Walters
Guest
Chris
We have flashing LED lights on each upright (at eye level) and a buzzer at our range. I know of two instances where shooters fired during the cease fire. Benchrest shooters tend to focus so intently on what they are doing that they sometimes ignore their surroundings. A range officer is a must.
We have flashing LED lights on each upright (at eye level) and a buzzer at our range. I know of two instances where shooters fired during the cease fire. Benchrest shooters tend to focus so intently on what they are doing that they sometimes ignore their surroundings. A range officer is a must.
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adamsgt
Jerry Adams
I was on the 100 yd line at my local club. I was by myself on the range. After finishing my target I turned on the safety lights and walked down to retrieve it. As I pulled the target, I heard a shot and felt something hit my left forearm. Fortunately, it was just some dirt from the bullet impact. I started yelling cease fire.
First problem, the lights were installed under the roof and behind the benches. The person who fired obviously did not see them. The person who fired was the Range Officer. I submitted a letter to the board and new lights were placed in front of every bench on all the ranges.
R
rwnoel
Guest
sometimes Murphy reigns
One time I was at the range alone, I turned on the yellow safety lights at the firing line.
We also have lights at 100yds which we must turn on when we are going down to 200yds. When I tried turning on the lights at 100yds, nothing happened. There was a town-wide power outage.
Fortunately no one else came while I was downrange...
Some times all the lights and buzzers in the world won't help.
One time I was at the range alone, I turned on the yellow safety lights at the firing line.
We also have lights at 100yds which we must turn on when we are going down to 200yds. When I tried turning on the lights at 100yds, nothing happened. There was a town-wide power outage.
Fortunately no one else came while I was downrange...
Some times all the lights and buzzers in the world won't help.
Some times:
Shi... happens! In my limited bench rest career I have been down range Three times when when rounds came down range while I was down range. IN ALL CASES the procedures were being followed for me to be down range. In none of those cases did I go off the deep end. Having been shoot at versus being shot close to (30 yards or more) may be the reason. However, safety must be observed when shooters are down range. IN ALL CASES - No one felt worse than the person who shot while I was down range. Chris: Pay the piper and life goes on! BY THE WAY: two of those doing the shooting while I was down range were / are in the Hall of Fame!
Shi... happens! In my limited bench rest career I have been down range Three times when when rounds came down range while I was down range. IN ALL CASES the procedures were being followed for me to be down range. In none of those cases did I go off the deep end. Having been shoot at versus being shot close to (30 yards or more) may be the reason. However, safety must be observed when shooters are down range. IN ALL CASES - No one felt worse than the person who shot while I was down range. Chris: Pay the piper and life goes on! BY THE WAY: two of those doing the shooting while I was down range were / are in the Hall of Fame!
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Hunter
Runnin' Along
I haven't counted the number of times folks in this thread have experienced shots being fired with someone downrange, but I'm AMAZED at what seems to be a not-uncommon occurrence among benchrest shooters -- i.e., folks who you would think would be MUCH more careful. I'm AMAZED! Are we stupid, or what?
I agree. Can't see the light or sign is not an excuse. Go look for it!!! If someone shot by me on a cold range they would have to whip my ass too.
Still hard to understand why anyone is still sitting at the bench when someone is going down range could someone please explain why this seems to be a normal pratice for this paticular shooting sport. Who is in charge of the line during these time it just does not make any sense to me as I am surely missing something.
Mike Bryant
Active member
When people are practicing at both 100 and 200, sometimes the 100 yard target frames will obscure someone who is down range at 200 changing targets. The red lights and buzzer should be enough that is if the buzzer is turned on during practice. The buzzer at St. Louis is pretty loud and was used during practice the days before the match started. I've been down range changing practice targets at 200 at St. Louis and be a little concerned that the range will go hot before I get back. Needless to say, I get down there, change the target and get back as quickly as possible. Pretty easy for the 100 yard targets to block the view of someone down range past the 100 yard line. I don't think they had the buzzer going during the match when the line was cold, but the only time you ever have anyone firing when the range isn't hot during a match is when someone doesn't realize that the time was out. We have lots of older shooters who just can't hear and sometimes don't realize that the line is no longer hot during a match. Before sending the target crew downrange, it would probably be a good idea to make sure that everyone has cleared the benches before allowing the next relay to come up and put their equipment on the benches. No one wants an accident.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
I have been to ranges where the command "step back from the benches" was given where a rangemaster was present. Many times the ranges are unsupervised. Are we going overboard,or, are we just taking precautions BEFORE someone gets shot? Actually, we are all adult and well seasoned on safety. Just practice safety and stay alert!!
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Steve Kostanich
Active member
If I recall correctly, when I first started BR shooting the NBRSA rule book included a rule that "no one was to be within 5 feet of bench when someone was down range" Strangly that rule seems to have disappeared. And if remember it was really never enforced on some of the ranges I shot on. Some one please correct me if I am wrong on this, my memory ain't what it used to be.
Steve Kostanich
Steve Kostanich
Range Safety
Prior to anybody going down range,When the red lights are turned on, at the private range I belong to, All shooters, at the line, are required to remove their rifles from the benches and place them in, range provided, rifle racks that are positioned behind the red line. With the range officers permission, I have been allowed to leave my Rail gun on the bench,of course with bolt removed, when people were down range.
This aspect of range safety is specifically and repeatedly covered during new member orientation. New members are cautioned to advise their guests of the safety policy, and to report any violators to the Range Officer. There is a full time Range Officer on duty at all times.
Another Range,I belong to, have installed video cameras that cover activity in the vicinity of the Benches. For security reason’s and to CYA. The cameras can be remotely monitored by cell phones. Some members got a little upset, saying that the cameras was a violation of Privacy. I disagree.
We live in a litigious society. No matter who is at fault for accidents/injuries that occur at rifle ranges. Its usually the Rifle range/Pistol range, that gets sued.
Glenn
Prior to anybody going down range,When the red lights are turned on, at the private range I belong to, All shooters, at the line, are required to remove their rifles from the benches and place them in, range provided, rifle racks that are positioned behind the red line. With the range officers permission, I have been allowed to leave my Rail gun on the bench,of course with bolt removed, when people were down range.
This aspect of range safety is specifically and repeatedly covered during new member orientation. New members are cautioned to advise their guests of the safety policy, and to report any violators to the Range Officer. There is a full time Range Officer on duty at all times.
Another Range,I belong to, have installed video cameras that cover activity in the vicinity of the Benches. For security reason’s and to CYA. The cameras can be remotely monitored by cell phones. Some members got a little upset, saying that the cameras was a violation of Privacy. I disagree.
We live in a litigious society. No matter who is at fault for accidents/injuries that occur at rifle ranges. Its usually the Rifle range/Pistol range, that gets sued.
Glenn
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The 60 bench range at BRRC has 14 flashing red lights about sternum high and 16 that are about 7 feet above the ground.
There is no excuse for a shot when the range is cold. If a shooter does not know the usual meaning of red lights or flashing red lights, then he ought to ask. Knowing is everything, guessing is nothing.
Operating safely is one component of the game, and there is no rational argument that it is anything but the most important component. Nothing else matters if a shooting match is not conducted safely.
Lights and equipment do not make a range safe, that comes from attitude and character, and discipline of the individual shooters.
Edited to add:
After reading Chris Harris' first post, I am for banning him from Benchrest.
Part of his comments are exaggerated. Some are misleading. Some are flatly false. Along with his lack of remorse in that post make him eligible.
There is no excuse for a shot when the range is cold. If a shooter does not know the usual meaning of red lights or flashing red lights, then he ought to ask. Knowing is everything, guessing is nothing.
Operating safely is one component of the game, and there is no rational argument that it is anything but the most important component. Nothing else matters if a shooting match is not conducted safely.
Lights and equipment do not make a range safe, that comes from attitude and character, and discipline of the individual shooters.
Edited to add:
After reading Chris Harris' first post, I am for banning him from Benchrest.
Part of his comments are exaggerated. Some are misleading. Some are flatly false. Along with his lack of remorse in that post make him eligible.
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pipeline60
Kelly Ellis
Now we know
Thanks for your informative post, now some of us new shooters can see what not to do to get "banned from benchrest" for life.
Kelly Ellis
AreoE
Thanks for your informative post, now some of us new shooters can see what not to do to get "banned from benchrest" for life.
Kelly Ellis
Mr. Ellis,
Benchrest rescinded a rule several years ago that required all shooters to leave the bench at a cease fire in order to allow cleaning, flag set up and so on as an accommodation to benchrest shooters and their customs or standard practice during a match.
The rules are simple in the end; don't shoot when the range is cold. Doesn't matter whether anyone is down range or not. The rest, stepping back from the bench or no handling of ammunition or magazines for two examples are as much a courtesy to the other shooters on the line as just a little more insurance that the shooters are behaving in a safe manner.
The lower row of lights I mentioned are just slightly above the shooters line of sight when seated.
Competitive benchrest is the only discipline that tolerates gun handling during a cold range, and then seems to tolerate negligent discharges during a cold range!
I removed my auto signature line for security reasons several years past.
Lee L
Benchrest rescinded a rule several years ago that required all shooters to leave the bench at a cease fire in order to allow cleaning, flag set up and so on as an accommodation to benchrest shooters and their customs or standard practice during a match.
The rules are simple in the end; don't shoot when the range is cold. Doesn't matter whether anyone is down range or not. The rest, stepping back from the bench or no handling of ammunition or magazines for two examples are as much a courtesy to the other shooters on the line as just a little more insurance that the shooters are behaving in a safe manner.
The lower row of lights I mentioned are just slightly above the shooters line of sight when seated.
Competitive benchrest is the only discipline that tolerates gun handling during a cold range, and then seems to tolerate negligent discharges during a cold range!
I removed my auto signature line for security reasons several years past.
Lee L
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Lawrence W.
Member
Why is no one is talking about the bolts out rule? With the bolt out of the gun, it guarantees that the gun is safe and cannot be fired.
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Chris Harris
Member
I am not sure that I see the relevance Lawrence. If one walks up to the line to shoot a group and you determine that the line is hot then you will set up, put your bolt in the rifle and shoot. If you know the line is safe then you would be crazy to put your bolt in the rifle.
Chris Harris
Member
Not sure what your name is but clearly you are missing the point of the entire issue. Mine is about safety. It appears your's is about being vindictive. Shots have been fired many times during ceasefire at STL and by very experienced shooters. Of those that I know, none of them do it intentionally or because they don't care. They were simply unaware of the ceasefire.
So why don't you spell out exactly where I was misleading, flatly false and 'exaggerating' and lacking remorse. Wild statements like this do require some detail so that people can possibly respect them. I am really keen to see where I have misstated anything and very willing to apologise.
And then while you are at it, please explain to us why you feel we would be better off by banning me from benchrest for life. I am keen to learn that as if you convince me, I will gladly stand back an not ever shoot BR again.
And ... please state your name.
Chris Harris
Member
Good information. Would you please mind posting a photograph of your shooting line so that we can see what see what is not working for you guys?
Chris