Lothar Walther 12 groove, slow twist & regular twist polygon barrels

B

Boomer_Mikey

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I think it's time to discuss barrels... Lothar Walther 12 groove, slow and regular twist rate polygon barrels. Everyone in our club is using a Lothar Walther barrel except for our Marauder, FWB, and AA S400 MPR-FT users. A couple of us extensively tested custom .177 Lilja barrels that didn't deliver results better than Lothar Walther .177 barrels.

The latest trend are the .177 polygon barrels with JSB Monsters in slow and fast twist rates. This combination has proven to be the most accurate in our local club (Wild River) with both twist rates working well in HV. The shooters with top HV scores at our matches are using polygon barrels with Monsters followed by 12 groove barrels with Monsters and 12 groove barrels with 10.3's. Besides accuracy, polygon barrels don't seem to require cleaning as often to maintain accuracy. In a recent discussion with Mike Niksch; in his testing, polygon barrels did not require as much vertical compensation in the wind as 12 groove barrels; essentially, eliminating the need to consider vertical effects of wind on the pellet.

There has been some experimenting in our club with polygon barrels in LV with inconclusive results; so far, none of us are using polygon barrels in LV. JSB/AA 8.4's are the most popular pellet for our LV guns.

Cleaning:
Most of the .177 12 groove barrel users in our club clean between cards for the best accuracy. I was cleaning my LW SS 12 groove barrel with VFG brass impregnated felt pellets using what we call "The Dry Cleaning Method" in my EV2 with good results but recently have switched to wet patches followed with with dry patches on a 20 CAL pull through line (patchworm) resulting in better scores. This is the same method used by our top shooters with both polygon and 12 groove barrels although our choice of solvent may be different; the most popular solvent is WD-40. The 20 CAL patchworm is our most popular pull through cleaning system as it cleans the barrel with a single patch that is very tight in a .177 bore.

Have Fun,

Boomer
 
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Boomer_Mikey said:
I think it's time to discuss barrels... Lothar Walther 12 groove, slow and regular twist rate polygon barrels. Everyone in our club is using a Lothar Walther barrel except for our Marauder, FWB, and AA S400 MPR-FT users. A couple of us extensively tested custom .177 Lilja barrels that didn't deliver results better than Lothar Walther .177 barrels.

The latest trend are the .177 polygon barrels with JSB Monsters in slow and fast twist rates. This combination has proven to be the most accurate in our local club (Wild River) with both twist rates working well in HV. The shooters with top HV scores at our matches are using polygon barrels with Monsters followed by 12 groove barrels with Monsters and 12 groove barrels with 10.3's. Besides accuracy, polygon barrels don't seem to require cleaning as often to maintain accuracy. In a recent discussion with Mike Niksch; in his testing, polygon barrels did not require as much vertical compensation in the wind as 12 groove barrels; essentially, eliminating the need to consider vertical effects of wind on the pellet.

There has been some experimenting in our club with polygon barrels in LV with inconclusive results; so far, none of us are using polygon barrels in LV. JSB/AA 8.4's are the most popular pellet for our LV guns.

Cleaning:
Most of the .177 12 groove barrel users in our club clean between cards for the best accuracy. I was cleaning my LW SS 12 groove barrel with VFG brass impregnated felt pellets using what we call "The Dry Cleaning Method" in my EV2 with good results but recently have switched to wet patches followed with with dry patches on a 20 CAL pull through line (patchworm) resulting in better scores. This is the same method used by our top shooters with both polygon and 12 groove barrels although our choice of solvent may be different; the most popular solvent is WD-40. The 20 CAL patchworm is our most popular pull through cleaning system as it cleans the barrel with a single patch that is very tight in a .177 bore.

Have Fun,

Boomer
Click to expand...
At Holbrook about the same. My HV Thomas loves Monsters in it's 1/36 slow twist Polygon but I clean it each card. If I don't the X count goes way down. It only takes 2 or 3 pellets before I shoot the target. The patchwork kills my arthritic hands so use a Crown saver and favor Kroil instead of WD-40.
Wish I had a barrel that would shoot LV and HV like Mike has found!
Paul
 
From what I read

On the YouTube Machinist forums, WD-40 is mostly Kerosene and was designed to disperse water. I recently found a solvent that seems to be a "Miracle". It's a spray cleaner called Krud Kutter; got mine at Home Depot. I found it in my search for a solvent that would quickly remove wax from .22 Rimfire barrels. I am able to keep one rifle shooting pretty well through 5- 25 record bull target cards now using it after each card. Rimfire guns have a different set of circumstances, as one could expect. I suspect this solvent leaves a residue that does not allow the wax, carbon and lead to adhere to the barrel surface well. Wax does stick but looking in with a bore scope, it is noticeably there vs not being able to see it at all when using every other solvent known to man or beast. The jury is still out but so far, things look good. Perhaps none of you experience much stubborn fouling but if any of you do have problematic barrels, this one may be worth a try. Noting wrong with using Kerosene or Kroil from my experience as long as there isn't excessive fouling.

Having said this, the barrel I spoke of is going on it's 6th year of competition and has had probably 10k of rounds through it, mebby more. It still shoots pretty well when it is spotless but will only yield one good card with a good x count. I plan to set it back when I get home in April. And as a side note, the strike of the first fouling shot has changed on the paper. Must be a reason? ( this barrel has always been a lead collector)

There are also some good YouTube's showing test results of the various popular gun cleaning solvents that are very revealing as to what works and what doesn't. Easy to find them.

Pete
 
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Interesting Peter.
But what type of Krud Kutter have you picked, because there are many to choose from.
 
Pete Wass said:
On the YouTube Machinist forums, WD-40 is mostly Kerosene and was designed to disperse water. I recently found a solvent that seems to be a "Miracle". It's a spray cleaner called Krud Kutter; got mine at Home Depot. I found it in my search for a solvent that would quickly remove wax from .22 Rimfire barrels. I am able to keep one rifle shooting pretty well through 5- 25 record bull target cards now using it after each card. Rimfire guns have a different set of circumstances, as one could expect. I suspect this solvent leaves a residue that does not allow the wax, carbon and lead to adhere to the barrel surface well. Wax does stick but looking in with a bore scope, it is noticeably there vs not being able to see it at all when using every other solvent known to man or beast. The jury is still out but so far, things look good. Perhaps none of you experience much stubborn fouling but if any of you do have problematic barrels, this one may be worth a try. Noting wrong with using Kerosene or Kroil from my experience as long as there isn't excessive fouling.

Having said this, the barrel I spoke of is going on it's 6th year of competition and has had probably 10k of rounds through it, mebby more. It still shoots pretty well when it is spotless but will only yield one good card with a good x count. I plan to set it back when I get home in April. And as a side note, the strike of the first fouling shot has changed on the paper. Must be a reason? ( this barrel has always been a lead collector)

There are also some good YouTube's showing test results of the various popular gun cleaning solvents that are very revealing as to what works and what doesn't. Easy to find them.

Pete
Click to expand...

It's always a good idea to look at the Material Safety Data Sheet for any solvent you use in a barrel:

MSDS for KRUD KUTTER:
Hazardous Ingredients: Hazard Classification, Risk Phrases
Water 90 – 97% None, None
Trisodium Salt 1 – 3% ,Not Listed, [C] Corrosive
Ethoxylated Alcohol 1 – 3% ,Not Listed ,[Xn] Harmful, [Xi] Irritant
Sodium Metasilicate Pentahydrate 1 - 3% ,[C] Corrosive

I won't be using KRUD CUTTER in my barrels as the active ingredients are corrosive. The only positive is it's non-flammable.

MSDS for KROIL:
Chemical Name, %
Severely Hydrotreated Petroleum Distillates, 30-50
Light Petroleum Distillates, 30-50
Aliphatic Alcohols, 1-5
Glycol Ether, 1-5
Proprietary Ingredients, 5-15
Flash Point: 124 Degrees
NOTES: No Corrosion inhibitor, low flash point

MSDS for FP-10:
HAZARDOUS COMPONENTS, Percentage
Synthetic Hydrocarbon Base Oil, 66%
Synthetic EP Oil Additive, 30%
Lubricity Additive, 1%
Corrosion Inhibitor, 3%
Flash Point: >338 Degrees
NOTES: Synthetic Oil with Corrosion inhibitor, High flash point

MSDS for WD-40:
Ingredient, Weight Percent
Aliphatic Hydrocarbon, 45-50
Petroleum Base Oil, <25
LVP Aliphatic Hydrocarbon, 12-18
Carbon Dioxide, 2-3 (aerosol spray)
Non-Hazardous Ingredients:
Mixture, <10
Flash Point: 122 Degrees
NOTES: light oil, No Corrosion inhibitor, low flash point

MSDS for Otis 085 CLP: (my personal favorite)
INGREDIENT, % WT
Severly Hydrotreated Light Naphthenic Distillate, 60 - 100
Phosphonic Acid Polymer, 1 - 5
Butyl Cellosolve, 1 - 5
Flash Point: Product is non-flammable and biodegradable. May cause irritation laxative effect if ingested!

There are so many products and opinions on this subject that you should be the judge about what you like and use. What I like about OTIS 085 CLP is that it seems to get more lead out of a barrel than solvents with a petroleum based solvent and my barrel returns to normal much sooner after cleaning... usually 1-3 shots

Have fun,

Boomer
 
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Thank You Boomer

Boomer_Mikey said:
It's always a good idea to look at the Material Safety Data Sheet for any solvent you use in a barrel:

MSDS for KRUD KUTTER:
Hazardous Ingredients: Hazard Classification, Risk Phrases
Water 90 – 97% None, None
Trisodium Salt 1 – 3% ,Not Listed, [C] Corrosive
Ethoxylated Alcohol 1 – 3% ,Not Listed ,[Xn] Harmful, [Xi] Irritant
Sodium Metasilicate Pentahydrate 1 - 3% ,[C] Corrosive

I won't be using KRUD CUTTER in my barrels as the active ingredients are corrosive. The only positive is it's non-flammable.

MSDS for KROIL:
Chemical Name, %
Severely Hydrotreated Petroleum Distillates, 30-50
Light Petroleum Distillates, 30-50
Aliphatic Alcohols, 1-5
Glycol Ether, 1-5
Proprietary Ingredients, 5-15
Flash Point: 124 Degrees
NOTES: No Corrosion inhibitor, low flash point

MSDS for FP-10:
HAZARDOUS COMPONENTS, Percentage
Synthetic Hydrocarbon Base Oil, 66%
Synthetic EP Oil Additive, 30%
Lubricity Additive, 1%
Corrosion Inhibitor, 3%
Flash Point: >338 Degrees
NOTES: Synthetic Oil with Corrosion inhibitor, High flash point

MSDS for WD-40:
Ingredient, Weight Percent
Aliphatic Hydrocarbon, 45-50
Petroleum Base Oil, <25
LVP Aliphatic Hydrocarbon, 12-18
Carbon Dioxide, 2-3 (aerosol spray)
Non-Hazardous Ingredients:
Mixture, <10
Flash Point: 122 Degrees
NOTES: light oil, No Corrosion inhibitor, low flash point

MSDS for Otis 085 CLP: (my personal favorite)
INGREDIENT, % WT
Severly Hydrotreated Light Naphthenic Distillate, 60 - 100
Phosphonic Acid Polymer, 1 - 5
Butyl Cellosolve, 1 - 5
Flash Point: Product is non-flammable and biodegradable. May cause irritation laxative effect if ingested!

There are so many products and opinions on this subject that you should be the judge about what you like and use. What I like about OTIS 085 CLP is that it seems to get more lead out of a barrel than solvents with a petroleum based solvent and my barrel returns to normal much sooner after cleaning... usually 1-3 shots

Have fun,

Boomer
Click to expand...

I, and I'm sure others, appreciate all the time you put into compiling the information you have provided. I have not tried the CLP but will. I am all for the most expedient cleaner I can find. Regarding the Krud Kutter; I am not alarmed with the ingredients. I grew up drinking water that came through lead pipes, lived for many years in lead painted rooms and have breathed what ends being Acid Rain for most of my 71 years. I am also not terribly concerned about the corrosive elements in the cleaner. My barrels are stainless steel and I have seen no evidence on either the shiny outer surface or internally that the corrosive elements cause much, if any damage. I am of the opinion that barrels are a wear item and I want the remainder of my life to be as easy for me as I can make it. I don't want to sound sarcastic here but I think concern over using a product like Krud Kutter would be over reacting. I do appreciate others feel differently. Perhaps when one gets closer to the end, like I am, one may see some benefit in living dangerously once in awhile :D.

Thanks again for the work on this.

Pete
 
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Slow twist barrels

Mike, I'm aware of the experimentation that's been going on for
a few years but other than the occasional mention on the Gateway
forum very little about this topic ever gets posted anywhere.
Other than 1:30 or 36, what else has been tried? What some
folks have learned from FX rifles would suggest something
even slower could also work.
Group buys on the barrels?

Ron
 
CLP's

I was in Walmart today and saw a can of aerosol CLP so I bought it. I tried it in the chamber of my Sporter that had a lump of carbon @ 6:00. I let it sit in there for about 30 minutes, then patched it out; carbon still there. I applied a second squirt and let it sit for about 1 hour then patched it out. Carbon went with it thtr time.

Got to looking things over and see that Boomer referenced a CLP by Otis, What I got was made by some company in Jacksonville for Safariland and is a Break Free product. I am now thinking I bought the wrong CLP, is that right? CLP meaning: Cleaner, Lubricant, Preservative only?

At any rate, this one seems to work.

Thanks,

Pete
 
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Boomer_Mikey said:
Everyone in our club is using a Lothar Walther barrel except for our Marauder, FWB, and AA S400 MPR-FT users.
Click to expand...

Think you will find MPR's are a basic spec barrel and latest Fens match grade, both Lothar Walther. Old Fens over 11 years old as in P70FT were made in house got one here produced in 2009.
 
The experimental Lilja barrels I believe were 1:26 twist. Strever has a standard twist polygon barrel that's beating up on the rest of us with monsters; before that Ron was doing the same thing with a 1:36 polygon. All the twist rates in polygon and 12 groove seem to like monsters best at HV levels. My best barrel so far is a standard 12 groove with AA 10.3's but I'm not beating anyone in HV or LV. I have a Thomas on order... maybe I can get third place once in a while...

The product I like best is OTIS 085 bore cleaner; they don't advertise it as proximately as BREAKFREE CLP does. The OTIS literature does say it is a product with CLP attributes. The BREAKFREE CLP is very good as a wipe down product to protect steel surfaces from moisture. For me the biggest advantage of 085 is fewer shots to get back to a normal state after cleaning the bore.

Have Fun,

Boomer
 
poly gon barrel result on RAW TM1000 or BM500

Does anyone has used LW polygon barrel on RAW TM000 & BM500 in .177 cal? What was the result?
Apart JSB Monster pellet, can be used another models like Exact Heavy 10.43 gr?

thanks
 
Cleaning the LW polygon barrels

Wondering what the general consensus is on the cleaning of these two barrels?
I'm getting lots of lead buildup on both - slow and regular twist -
Averaging one card before needing solvent soaked patches -
Without cleaning - flyers abound -
Any input would be greatly aprieated
CK
 

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Two different cleaning methods for the barrels.You think you have it down with the slow twist but then at times it does not stay settled in long enough. The regular polygon barrel I tried for the first time today and very pleased with the overall outcome.

Each barrel has it's own personality, and will continue to work with the slower twist poly.


Regards,
Joe
 
Lead fouling

Hey Joe
I've found that with time the slow twist and JSB beasts really foul quickly - lucky to get through one card-- using an old world technique to get the lead out- but would never recommend this to others.
I'm surprised at the regular twist poly, expected to get more shots between cleanings?
Shooting LV - the 8.4 grain AAs at around 800 FPS - getting lots of buildup - then flyers -
Trying to find a cure, so to speak-
When the barrels are performing at peak, they are hard to beat but--
The leading does seem to be their Achilles heal
In the beginning, the barrels needed little attention, but I suspect that the buildup reaches a point where
More thorough cleanings are needed?
I'm currently using shooters choice lead out, after each card with some success -
Tried shooting the standard twist tonight, in no wind conditions - and only had two flyers-
But after the card I pulled a solvent soaked patch - and it came back filthy with lead shards
CK
 
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Barrel Leading

At last weeks Indoor match at Holbrook I was shooting my 6 year old, factory barreled AA S400 MPR FT 12fp Gun. I had a card going, and out of the first 15 shots I had dropped the first one, then 10 out of the next 14 were X's with no dropped points, and that's where everything went arry. Out of the next 6 shots I proceeded to dropp 4 points with no X's.

Totally frustrated I shot a felt cleaning pellet through, then proceeded to finish out the target with the last 4 shots being dead-nuts X's. The following card you better believe that after shot 15 shots, plus sighters, I shot another felt pellet through and ended up shooting a 250. Guess that shows the barrel leads up enough after the first 22 shots, so something needs to be done, and luckily a cleaning pellet is all it takes.

Guess I'd better order more cleaning pellets!

Dave Shattuck
 
Insightful ---

I've heard of guys shooting felt pellets in the middle of a card--
Do you soak the pellets in a solvent?
And do you shoot a few sighters after,to make sure you do not drop any more points? what brand of barrel were you shooting?
Thanks
CK
 
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So far I haven't tried soaking any pellets, but have been thinking about it. If the dry pellets keep doing what they've done, I think I'll stick with dry. And no sighter after, just straight on to the next target, mainly because I wasn't using any chemicals with them. After each card though I do clean the bore on all my guns thoroughly using one, and sometimes but rarely 2 wet with Kroil followed by 2 or 3 dry. After that I will take several sighters to help reseason the bore, plus I had read someplace about needing to take at least 7 shots in order to help the valve work smoother after sitting for any length of time.

The first time I shot my MPR after the summer off, after charging the tank to 170 BAR I accidently opened the valve on my supply tank all the way instead of closing it, which dropped nearly 4500 PSI into a 2900 PSI Max. system. Man, did I feel stupid, and only hoped the extra pressure hadn't blown out the O-Rings, or worse. First thing I did was to dry fire the gun about 50 times in order to get the pressure back down to where it should have been, then turned right around and shot a 250 with it, the only 250 of the day for me. Guess I had loosened things up enough.

Dave
 
Thanks Dave

So are you cleaning your standard twist poly with felt pellets, Shooting the 8.4s?
i will have to try the felt pellets during a card- usually average two flyers per card -
I call em WTF shots!?
Just from outa nowhere ---
Also note that the soaked patch comes back completely filthy with lead schards after each card-
Tried Kroil in the very beginning, but switched to shooters Choice lead Out after a few errant shots.
I think that a soaked felt pellet could assist in the cleaning process -but your probably right in that it would take several sighters to get back on the X --
Regards
CK
 
Some good info here, thanks.

I am going through a phase of not touching my barrel, letting it lead up and then letting it lead up some more on my sub 12ft lb .177 pcp.

Bearing in mind there is only lead in our ammunition, no wax or igniting compound etc etc.

I am aware though the crown can get clogged so every now and then i shoot two pellets through together with the theory that they are pushed into the rifling much deeper than usual and therefore cleaning the grooves and crown out.

i should add that i only use high lead content pellets like the jsb exact for ammo.

has anyone tried running a couple of shots over a chronograph before and after they have cleaned, my guess that the cleaned barrel will slow the pellet down?

Tony
 
Tony --

I've tried letting the barrel lead up, but the score card suffers --
I use the LABRADAR so it constantly sits next to the rifle --monitor every shot for drop offs ---
After cleaning I lose about 20fps for the first 10- 15 shots then stabization ----
I do believe that the soft lead pellets are one of the reasons for the heavy lead fouling? Also mainily in the choke area of the barrel ---
Interesting info though -
C
 
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