LAPUA 220 Russian cases down the drain?

[mturner]

Mike,

I think you will find the Norma cases are not as bad as you think they are. In 2016 I prepped 50 Norma PPC's for my UNL gun. During that season and 2017 those cases have fired two 100 yd 10 shot aggs, four 200 yd 10 shot aggs, 2 100 yd 5 shot aggs. and 2 200 yd 5 shot aggs. plus all the normal sighters. While the primer pockets are not as tight as the older Lapua cases provide, they certainly are not loose. I was firing 29.8 gr. of 133/08. By the way, you can get 31 grs. in the Norma cases, maybe more with a long drop tube.

Accuracy was excellent, as the cases fired two possible world records at the 2017 Sniper King in Tacoma. I haven't as yet gotten confirmation if the records made it or not.

As for the short headspace on the Norma brass, I simply neck turn short of the neck/shoulder junction and HS on that point. Yes I know it makes the "doughnut", but I use a long freebore and am never seated anywhere near the neck/shoullder junction.

FWIW
Steve Kostanich

Steve,

I have never thought the Norma was bad. I know what it is, because I have some. I do wish it was headspaced properly. I just don't see how .0015" of brass per side, based on a .262" chamber with a .265" neck diameter is really enough to effectively headspace the case on the first firing. I personally would slightly short chamber to use it.

As for the Norma's ability to handle high pressure, I'm sure it's about the same as the newer Lapua, but that doesn't allow Jackie or anyone else to run the top node of 30.4 gr of N133. With the Norma case, we could even be talking about loads in the 30.6 gr to 30.8 gr range just to equal the same velocity as the Lapua case. That could be up to a grain higher than the load you were shooting. This is why it would require Lapua to use the older alloy, and make the PPC brass if they really cared about supporting the short range BR crowd to the best of their ability.

Do I believe Lapua is going to care enough to do this? Probably not. I believe there is only a fair chance if the shooters stop using their brass, and do a lot of complaining. Do I believe Norma is doing a better job of trying to listen to what the shooters need, and supplying them with a quality product? Yes I do, but their is still room for improvement from both manufacturers.

Michael

 

[Boyd Allen]

A while back, working with some perhaps thrice fired Lapua based PPC brass I screwed the pooch setting my FL die and bumped the shoulder of the first case to about where the Norma brass starts at. To save the case from being stretched more than I wanted, I did what Dasher shooters commonly do, I expanded the neck with a .25 caliber mandrel and then sized at 6mm so that I had some feel when closing the bolt. I have some gold box yet, and I do not shoot top node, but if I wanted to shoot Norma I would probably do the same thing. I bought 25 rounds of the new Norma and fired it as it came, using my normal into the lands seating depth. I did not observe any problems from doing so. In the past I have measured new and once fired brass that indicated that the new was quite a bit short, and have not see any problems as long as the initial firing was the only time that the case was stretched that much.

 

[sdean]

Lapua sells all the brass for 30br now. Seems to me it would make no sense to spend any money retooling.

 

[gabe ledesma]

In reality what benefits would we gain by having lapua make 6ppc brass other than having the headstamp saying lapua 6ppc. What would we gain? I would say that over 90% of the lapua 220 russian brass that we use in short range benchrest has the necks turned weather its 262-263 or 268. Even if lapua would make 6ppc brass we would still have to run a mandrel through the necks to make sure the necks are uniform before we turn the necks and then we would also have to fireforme the cases anyway. Yes its a ppc but not all ppc chambers are the same. Yes they can be off just a few thousands ,not all ppc reamers are created equal. Maybe its just me but I like the idea of 220 russian cases just as they are. I can fireform my cases in my barrels and know that those cases are tailormade for that chamber after i fireform them. Lapua 6ppc or 220 russians we still have to prep them. Now if we would be able to get more life from a lapua 6ppc case ,that to me would be worth it.

 

[REMY]

I think you might find the reason that Lapua don't make 6PPC cases is because the only chambering that has C.I.P specifications is the 6PPC USA not the 6PPC that we use in Benchrest rifles.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think any European manufacturer will produce cartridges or reloading components for a chambering that does not have C.I.P chamber specs.

Ian

The manufacturer can apply for new CIP approval.

 

[mturner]

In reality what benefits would we gain by having lapua make 6ppc brass other than having the headstamp saying lapua 6ppc. What would we gain? I would say that over 90% of the lapua 220 russian brass that we use in short range benchrest has the necks turned weather its 262-263 or 268. Even if lapua would make 6ppc brass we would still have to run a mandrel through the necks to make sure the necks are uniform before we turn the necks and then we would also have to fireforme the cases anyway. Yes its a ppc but not all ppc chambers are the same. Yes they can be off just a few thousands ,not all ppc reamers are created equal. Maybe its just me but I like the idea of 220 russian cases just as they are. I can fireform my cases in my barrels and know that those cases are tailormade for that chamber after i fireform them. Lapua 6ppc or 220 russians we still have to prep them. Now if we would be able to get more life from a lapua 6ppc case ,that to me would be worth it.

I'm not really seeing the problem here. I can do this in my sleep. Keep the base dimension the same as current 220 Russian brass. Make the shoulder diameter .428", which is .003" smaller than the typical shoulder diameter of the reamer, which is .431". Headspace it .003" shorter than the current headspace gauge. Make the shoulder angle 30 degrees. Keep the neck diameter the same, since we neck turn to about .002" under reamer neck dimension. As for fireforming, the case could either be fired once to make it fit perfect, instead of twice. I bet it would shoot teen aggs without fireforming. If you ask around, I'm sure you would find that all shooters using the Norma brass, would not like it near as well if it was a 220 Russian. There is not a person on earth that could convince me that since we have custom chambers, our fireformed brass fits better since we start with a case that has a shoulder angle off by 9 degrees, and a shoulder diameter that is .030" too small. Making anything too small, so we can then stretch it is counterproductive.

Actually, I am seeing the problem. Some people would rather walk uphill instead of downhill. Not enough people willing to ask for a change. Lapua could make the dies in a day. I could grind my own chamber and die reamers, and make the dies in a day.

Jackie said I would get the same corporate response as usual. He was being optimistic, they haven't responded at all. He agrees with me when it comes to these changes, he just already knew what I'm seeing when trying to get people involved to make a change. If I shoot the PPC at all, I will use Norma brass.

Michael

 

[gabe ledesma]

[QUOTE=mturner; Make the shoulder diameter .428", which is .003" smaller than the typical shoulder diameter of the reamer, which is .431". Headspace it .003" shorter than the current headspace gauge. Make the shoulder angle 30 degrees. Keep the neck diameter the same, since we neck turn to about .002" under reamer neck dimension.

Yes having a case that fits a ppc chamber more truer to ppc dimensions would be nice ,But what would we accomplish? Would thise ppc case help in improving accuracy? Would the cases last longer? Would we only need to fireform once insted of twice or three times? I am not against lapua making a ppc case but I think that lapua knows we'll that we as benchrest shooters are very demanding in trying to achieve the ultimate in extreme rifle accuracy and if they make a ppc case ,next we will be asking for a 22ppc a 30 and a dasher case. If they ever do make a ppc case it would be nice,only if they go back and use the same raw materials that they used back when they had the gold boxes. Lets not get into a blue box gold box debate that would take a whole new post

 

[jackie schmidt]

But, the "blue box" seems to be the problem.

I don't mind making my 6PPC cases out of 220 Russian. What I do mind is after all of the work, the darn things being trashed so quickly.

 

[mturner]

This is the gold box and blue box debate. All we are asking for here is a 6PPC made from the old alloy. Why? Way less trouble to prepare our brass, and last way longer at the upper nodes. This is all this post has been about for some time. Lapua is doing less for the shooters, not more. That is why some shooters are switching over to Norma.

The problem isn't wanting this to go somewhere. It's that it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

Michael

 

[gabe ledesma]

But, the "blue box" seems to be the problem.

I don't mind making my 6PPC cases out of 220 Russian. What I do mind is after all of the work, the darn things being trashed so quickly.

Yes jackie i feel your pain. About 16 years ago at the cactus I bought about 20+ boxes of the lapua gold box cases from bruno, he was selling them for about 55 or 60 bucks a box, i would of gotten more but that was all I could afford at that time without running out of gas money to get home. I only have about six boxes of those left.I bought a couple of the Blue boxes just to try them out. I have not tried the new brass as of yet, but I have weighed them and there is a difference in weight between blue box and gold box 220 russian cases.

 

[Engrbill]

+ 1

Mike,

I think you will find the Norma cases are not as bad as you think they are. In 2016 I prepped 50 Norma PPC's for my UNL gun. During that season and 2017 those cases have fired two 100 yd 10 shot aggs, four 200 yd 10 shot aggs, 2 100 yd 5 shot aggs. and 2 200 yd 5 shot aggs. plus all the normal sighters. While the primer pockets are not as tight as the older Lapua cases provide, they certainly are not loose. I was firing 29.8 gr. of 133/08. By the way, you can get 31 grs. in the Norma cases, maybe more with a long drop tube.

Accuracy was excellent, as the cases fired two possible world records at the 2017 Sniper King in Tacoma. I haven't as yet gotten confirmation if the records made it or not.

As for the short headspace on the Norma brass, I simply neck turn short of the neck/shoulder junction and HS on that point. Yes I know it makes the "doughnut", but I use a long freebore and am never seated anywhere near the neck/shoullder junction.

FWIW
Steve Kostanich

I have had the same experience with Norma cases. I shot the nationals with them and they are stil good to go. No clicks and primer pockets are still tight. I think they are the victim of old benchrest rumors that never died. -----Bill

 

[mturner]

I have had the same experience with Norma cases. I shot the nationals with them and they are stil good to go. No clicks and primer pockets are still tight. I think they are the victim of old benchrest rumors that never died. -----Bill

I agree that Norma PPC brass is good stuff. Maybe the post should be more about ditching Lapua brass for Norma, instead of getting Lapua to make PPC brass using the old alloy. I just though maybe we could have both.

Michael

 

[gabe ledesma]

I agree that Norma PPC brass is good stuff. Maybe the post should be more about ditching Lapua brass for Norma, instead of getting Lapua to make PPC brass using the old alloy. I just though maybe we could have both.

Michael

Michael nothing wrong with wanting the best of both worlds. I respect your opinion and know exactly what your talking about. Lapua has been making 220 russian cases for a few decades now and they still haven't changed, no matter how many times we have asked them. Why should they change, we keep buying it anyway no matter how many times we have asked for a ppc case they keep ignoring us. I think they need a rude awakening. Maybe if more shooters start using Norma brass and they start seeing their sales drop like the stock market ,they might have a change of opinion. I just might start using norma brass myself, after all if lou murdeca and steve kostanich say its good stuff. I believe it. Ther words are gospel

 

[mturner]

Michael nothing wrong with wanting the best of both worlds. I respect your opinion and know exactly what your talking about. Lapua has been making 220 russian cases for a few decades now and they still haven't changed, no matter how many times we have asked them. Why should they change, we keep buying it anyway no matter how many times we have asked for a ppc case they keep ignoring us. I think they need a rude awakening. Maybe if more shooters start using Norma brass and they start seeing their sales drop like the stock market ,they might have a change of opinion. I just might start using norma brass myself, after all if lou murdeca and steve kostanich say its good stuff. I believe it. Ther words are gospel

This plan does have the greatest chance of working, but only if the other shooters want it bad enough to join in and make a difference. Not starting a political discussion, but it's kinda like the last election. People finally got tired of the way things were headed and decided it was time to take a stand. Another good reason to use Norma brass is to reward them for their efforts. That's why I'll just use the Norma brass when I shoot the PPC. Customer support is a very big deal for me. It is the main reason our balancer company has soared to the top. We take care of our customers as if they were family.

Michael

 

[wang243]

At Michaels suggestion I copied and pasted his thoughts and sent them to Lapua. This is the response I received today from Kevin Thomas.


Thank you for taking time to write us with your concerns. While I’ve made the same recommendation myself, our research on this suggests that the vast majority of the Benchrest community would much rather form their own brass from our 220 Russian cases, than have it ready-made from the factory. Given the fact that this is virtually the only venue in which this cartridge has such a following, it is unlikely that this would be financially viable. We’re always happy to revisit a situation if things change down the road, but at present, that’s where it stands.

As to the alloy issue, I want to be very clear here; this is internet BS. There have been no changes to our alloy in at least the last 20 years. There have been none in the ten years that I’ve been employed by Lapua. In speaking with our longer-serving employees at the factory, and checking factory archives, again, no changes. The difference between the old “gold box” cases, and those that come in the new blue plastic box, is that one came in an older gold cardboard box, while the others came in a newer plastic box. That’s it. Those who claim otherwise on the various chat rooms, are sadly mistaken.

I hope this answers your question, but if there’s anything further that we can be of assistance, please don’t hesitate to let us know. As always, we’ll be glad to help.

Sincerely,

Kevin Thomas
Sales Manager
Nammo Commerical Ammunition

So it would appear that we are out of luck with a real 6PPC case or the old 220 Russian alloy.
I guess I will try the Norma brass or as it is time for a rebarrel maybe I will try the 6mm Grinch.
W

 

[mturner]

We will see!

As to the alloy issue, I want to be very clear here; this is internet BS. There have been no changes to our alloy in at least the last 20 years. There have been none in the ten years that I’ve been employed by Lapua. In speaking with our longer-serving employees at the factory, and checking factory archives, again, no changes. The difference between the old “gold box” cases, and those that come in the new blue plastic box, is that one came in an older gold cardboard box, while the others came in a newer plastic box. That’s it. Those who claim otherwise on the various chat rooms, are sadly mistaken.W

We will find out whether or not he is telling the truth. If he is not, he will be called out. I have both brown box and blue box 220 Russian cases for testing. If the alloy does prove to be the same, then it would suggest to me that the older brass manufacturing process cause a greater level of work hardening. If the older brass does test with a higher level of zinc, then the Lapua rep. should be called out.

As for his claim that the vast majority of BR shooters would rather make the PPC cases, can anyone here tell me that they were involved in this decision process? I know i rarely shoot the PPC, but I know they didn't include me in their survey.

Michael

 

[Anschuter2013]

Just my very limited experience...

I'm new to CF BR, with 2017 being my first season giving the score shooting discipline the ole' college try as that is what is shot around these parts (Upstate NY). I use Norma 6PPC brass for the sole reason of it being "dolt" friendly because I did not have any experience with prepping cases, lacking the knowledge and tools to do so. I do not neck turn for the same reason, One has to start somewhere. My personal experience with Norma 6PPC brass has been positive to date. I have participated in (3) 100 yard score matches, (3) 200 yard score matches, the NYS IBS score shoot consisting of a 100 and 200 yard Saturday-Sunday event and the Camillus Saturday-Sunday 100 LV/HV and 200 LV/HV group shoot. All together with practice included, my round count is roughly 800 rounds using the same 50 pieces of brass. I would not classify my powder charges as light, IE...I am not not babying the brass. I started with 29.3 N133, then settled on 28.4 LT-32. The brass still "responds" to FL re-sizing and shoulder bumps predictably, primer pockets are still tight. For what it's worth, my chamber is .269" and the loaded rounds measure .265". Take my limited experience and input with a grain of salt, but for what it's worth give the Norma brass a "shot". Pun intended. I don't mind recommending Norma brass to anyone for fear of the supply drying up and not being able to get any...I haven't needed any more than the limited supply I have (200) and God willing, I'm all set for the next 4 seasons. It's good stuff in my opinion. "EDITED" to state and clarify that I have not won any matches to date, but have come dang close...

Mike Tunis

 

[mturner]

The testing will be done soon

"Ok I've received a few samples to test. As it would happen, the machine is undergoing maintenance for a few days because someone jammed a piece of stainless steel into the sensor. "

"Results to come soon."

Direct quote from Jason concerning testing of 220 Russian brass.

This is a blind test. Jason will be able to give the results of the test for case #1, and case #2. There are two people who are on this sight on a regular basis, that I chose because they are both well respected. Those people will tell you which case is brown box, and which is blue box, after we receive the test results.

Michael

 

[mturner]

Testing is done.

Jason has completed the alloy testing. I'm not sure whether or not he has done any hardness testing. He will be posting the results with pictures very soon on the accurate shooter forum. I will copy the results to this forum. Two other shooter will be asked to come forward with the answer to which case is old Lapua, and which one is new Lapua.

Michael

 

[mturner]

Jackie Schmidt and Durward Wofford (BroD)

I need both of you to tell us what sample #1 and sample #2 are. I have the results, and will post them after your response. Hardness testing will follow at a later time.

Michael