Ir 50/50 (275)

[HuskerP7M8]

249 24X vs 250 0X

Although supposedly there may have been a 250 0X shot at some point in the past, I can tell you that it’s nearly an impossible task and would be similar, but not as extreme, as the old statistical example of:
“If you put an infinite number of monkeys in a room with an infinite number of type writers, one of those monkeys will eventually type out a Shakespearian play during an infinitive amount of time.”

I’m not sure how many are aware of this, but shot distributions with the POA being the same for every shot, and if you fire enough shots, will always follow a universal characteristic. That being the density of shots will always be higher toward the center.
That means a void in shots in the center or near the center is considered a statistical anomaly and will be incredibly rare if it ever happens at all.

If no one believes me, how many shot distributions would you like to see? I currently have over 8,000 25-shot distributions I’ve shot in my ballistic tunnel. LOL

BTW, I have no dog in this fight, if it is a fight(?), because I’ve only shot one IR50 match in my entire life.

Landy

 

[PedroS]

Until today, I have just saw a single 250 0x, made during the last Iberian Cup in Spain.
And I can still feel the pain looking at that winning target comparative to mine.

This is one feeling that could lead to change the scoring system, and, the other one, is the high number of 250s that start to be shot.

Let's look at the first feeling... being right or not, that's what the rule book says, so, at the end, the shooter that mostly touch the 10 line wins. Straight and simple. Is this fair? Yes, it is, because if you don't have the x, the score is always dictating the winner, it will be always a 249 against a 250. The x is only there for tiebreakers.
The other situation is the number of 250s. Again, there's no need to change the score system, because the x count will dictate the winner. And the rule book has the different ways to solve the tiebreak.

Compound archery has had, for some time, this very same issue. And neither system proved to be the best solution. WA found the solution shrinking the 10 area.

But, we have another key point, particular to our shooting, the ammo. We cannot control it, we are at a mercy of a bad one in the box. And, nowadays, a bad ammo will score low, and a low score put you out of the contention.
So after all the work behind to win a match, you still have to have luck picking the right bullet every time it counts.
For me, that's the only thing the 275 scoring system could address better than the 250 25x.

But also changing to a different score will change the initial philology of the game. Maybe better shrinking the counting zone, with higher printing costs involved, thought.

At the end of the day, I'll take whatever the rule book says.

 

[MaxxPower]

Tony:

You’ve been beating on this horse for so long all that’s left of it is a little bit of leather that might make a wallet. Do you truly think IR5050 is going to change scoring or introduce a new game at this point? It now takes weeks for scores to be posted, over two months for year-end Hall of Fame points to be posted and good luck getting a Record target certified (never mind getting posted… a Record target shot almost two months ago is still not posted on the IR5050 site.) As you said in your post the scoring change is a non-starter so I’m left to wonder why continue this crusade?

You mentioned there has been much “discussion” about 275 scoring. You have talked about it quite a bit and Calfee has droned on about it ad nauseum but besides that it’s been mostly crickets as far as I can tell. Maybe the 100% of the 2500X action owners who have been “praying… yes PRAYING” for a PAS conversion option have ALSO secretly been talking up 275 scoring.

If avoiding the penalty for a bad shot (for whatever reason) was keeping shooters away from IR5050 then 10-Shot would be more successful. It’s not. I can’t imagine IR5050 would be any more successful with 275 scoring and there’s a good chance it would be even more diminished.

Bruce Hornstein

 

[tonykharper]

Tony:

You’ve been beating on this horse for so long all that’s left of it is a little bit of leather that might make a wallet. Do you truly think IR5050 is going to change scoring or introduce a new game at this point? It now takes weeks for scores to be posted, over two months for year-end Hall of Fame points to be posted and good luck getting a Record target certified (never mind getting posted… a Record target shot almost two months ago is still not posted on the IR5050 site.) As you said in your post the scoring change is a non-starter so I’m left to wonder why continue this crusade?

You mentioned there has been much “discussion” about 275 scoring. You have talked about it quite a bit and Calfee has droned on about it ad nauseum but besides that it’s been mostly crickets as far as I can tell. Maybe the 100% of the 2500X action owners who have been “praying… yes PRAYING” for a PAS conversion option have ALSO secretly been talking up 275 scoring.

If avoiding the penalty for a bad shot (for whatever reason) was keeping shooters away from IR5050 then 10-Shot would be more successful. It’s not. I can’t imagine IR5050 would be any more successful with 275 scoring and there’s a good chance it would be even more diminished.

Bruce Hornstein

Bruce,

Good hearing from. You read through my post in this thread and your response represents your understanding of what I said?

I think you may be confused. Perhaps you read some of that stuff you whaled on about, on another forum, not written by me.

All in one post, you profess to know what everybody wants and secretly talks about, make no helpful suggestions, bad mouth IR 50/50 management, but yet continue to attend every IR 50/50 match.

Your words and your actions don't seem to be agreeing. It may be a good time to have your blood tested for lead.

Try not to worry Jason will get around to posting your record.

Take it easy and have yourself a nice day.

TKH (4628)

 

[Pete Wass]

My two cents

It is my observation that all the changes made to IR 50/50 since Wilbur sold it are the major reason for it's decline. Benchrest Sports are mostly made up of old people and most old people don't like change. Leave things alone or better yet, roll them back to when Wilbur was at the helm. Me, I have little interest any more. At 77 I am going to participate where I can shoot closer to home and with people who all pretty much like each other.

Pete

 

[J.B. Books]

Reply to Landy

Hi Norm,

I’ve been following your progress since we first met at the Area Championship in Texas last year and I truly appreciated you agreeing to share a bench with me when I asked for a fairly new shooter so I could possibly help them. My only regret is that the wind was so bad I couldn’t even help myself let alone you. LOL

Anyway, a big congrats for how well you’re doing and hope to see you somewhere this summer.

Landy

Back at Ya, Landy and good to hear from you ... thanks for the congrats and recognition.

I enjoyed sharing a bench with you in the North Texas wind last summer. I did learn from your tips but I've got a really long way to go.

The Indoor season has afforded the opportunity for me to work on optimizing rifle, ammo, rest as well as bench setup and shooting technique. My goal was to work on the "mental" aspects of the game. Now, with April nearing and the Outdoor season starting I hope what I learned over the winter will be helpful as I face the challenge of shooting in the wind.

Hope to see you this season and I'd welcome the opportunity to share a bench and your wisdom,

J.B. Books, aka Norm Flynn

 

[jimsplce]

Well, let's compare apples to apples, meaning comparing the best possible group size, and not one bad and one good. Taking your exemple being the 249 24x one hole in the center and one hole barely touching the 10, will, again, be worst comparative to the best possible 250 0x group, which will be one hole touching the 10 ring.

Please note that I don't want to take the cup home... just pointing perception is not, generally, the best way to see things.

Either way, to my understanding, the 275 score is not to achieve the smallest possible grouping, but to give more change against bad shots.

That said, I'll take either scoring that's on the rule book. And my ultimate goal is not a single bad shot! Maybe one day...

I appreciate your perspective and can't say that I think you are wrong as both methods have their talking points. I know which I would prefer, I think.

Whatever the rules are, they are the same for everyone and we can read them before we shoot. Either way, each rule may or may not work to our advantage on any particular day and against us on another.

I've wondered about these particular scoring methods for years and still haven't decided which I think is best or correct.

 

[glynn angle]

It is my observation that all the changes made to IR 50/50 since Wilbur sold it are the major reason for it's decline. Benchrest Sports are mostly made up of old people and most old people don't like change. Leave things alone or better yet, roll them back to when Wilbur was at the helm. Me, I have little interest any more. At 77 I am going to participate where I can shoot closer to home and with people who all pretty much like each other.

Pete

Pete the decline begin before Wilbur became the owner. The Nationals sold out at 120 shooters for two years running, then sold out at 160 shooters. The Cooks decided to dump some clubs the didn't like, RBA started & IR50-50 shrank & has stayed much smaller, while worst edge scoring has grown.

 

[Pete Wass]

Thanks for this

Pete the decline begin before Wilbur became the owner. The Nationals sold out at 120 shooters for two years running, then sold out at 160 shooters. The Cooks decided to dump some clubs the didn't like, RBA started & IR50-50 shrank & has stayed much smaller, while worst edge scoring has grown.

So it looks like Wilbur was doomed as well. This happened before my involvement.

Pete

 

[Kent Owens]

I should stay outta this, but I can't. LOL I ran IR50/50 matches for 10-12 years with Wilbur as owner, and later with Bill Hindgardener as owner. Both those guys were great for the game, honest to a fault. The year 2010 I averaged 22 shooters per match, and the turnout dwindled down from there. WHy, I have no clue, except a lot of folks died off and no young folks took their place? Myself, I'd became too old and decrepit to be competitive. Sad truth. LOL

I occasionally read this forum to see how things are going, and it doesn't look good guys. Back when I was shooting the rangemasters were better at promoting the sport, and there was a lot more chatter on the forum from shooters, and some ribbing, and a bit of rivalry, all in fun. I don't see that any more. I thought it was important, maybe I was wrong. Definite possibility. I enjoyed shooting IR50/50 and RBA, and whatever other target was hanging on the board. We even had some Black Death money matches here and there for fun. LOL I dearly loved the game and enjoyed the people, and I pull for it to continue on. There's a lot of fine folks in the shooting sports.

 

[tonykharper]

I should stay outta this, but I can't. LOL I ran IR50/50 matches for 10-12 years with Wilbur as owner, and later with Bill Hindgardener as owner. Both those guys were great for the game, honest to a fault. The year 2010 I averaged 22 shooters per match, and the turnout dwindled down from there. WHy, I have no clue, except a lot of folks died off and no young folks took their place? Myself, I'd became too old and decrepit to be competitive. Sad truth. LOL

I occasionally read this forum to see how things are going, and it doesn't look good guys. Back when I was shooting the rangemasters were better at promoting the sport, and there was a lot more chatter on the forum from shooters, and some ribbing, and a bit of rivalry, all in fun. I don't see that any more. I thought it was important, maybe I was wrong. Definite possibility. I enjoyed shooting IR50/50 and RBA, and whatever other target was hanging on the board. We even had some Black Death money matches here and there for fun. LOL I dearly loved the game and enjoyed the people, and I pull for it to continue on. There's a lot of fine folks in the shooting sports.

Kent, you said it as good as it could be said. I agree completely.

TKH (4628)

 

[tim]

I should stay outta this, but I can't. LOL I ran IR50/50 matches for 10-12 years with Wilbur as owner, and later with Bill Hindgardener as owner. Both those guys were great for the game, honest to a fault. The year 2010 I averaged 22 shooters per match, and the turnout dwindled down from there. WHy, I have no clue, except a lot of folks died off and no young folks took their place? Myself, I'd became too old and decrepit to be competitive. Sad truth. LOL

I occasionally read this forum to see how things are going, and it doesn't look good guys. Back when I was shooting the rangemasters were better at promoting the sport, and there was a lot more chatter on the forum from shooters, and some ribbing, and a bit of rivalry, all in fun. I don't see that any more. I thought it was important, maybe I was wrong. Definite possibility. I enjoyed shooting IR50/50 and RBA, and whatever other target was hanging on the board. We even had some Black Death money matches here and there for fun. LOL I dearly loved the game and enjoyed the people, and I pull for it to continue on. There's a lot of fine folks in the shooting sports.

All fair points, cannot disagree.
There is also an elephant in the room, at least as it relates to IR 50/50 three gun.I have been around since Milt and Helen and today, especially with a bounty of alternatives RFBR has gotten pretty expensive to buy and run multiple guns, often with multiple lots of ammo.Not a lot of thirty something guys able or enthusiastic about the prospect of dropping possibly $10k to get good stuff right out of the box, and a lot of guys that wish to start with a budget approach or factory based setup and get their butt kicked, unfortunately, simply fade away.
Look at the Vudoo experience, for instance.
I was all in favor of the BR entry, as much as it seemed to encourage a whole breed od non traditional BR guys to get into the game.
Traffic on SH. For over a year was robust with the “ this will re energize the whole BR world” mindset.
The must have sold dozens and dozens of complete rifles…… what the hell happened, where are they save a very small handfull.

 

[Kent Owens]

I agree, it is and was expensive, to play the game. I've seen from experience that any new equipment that's introduced to the game gets ridiculed so much,(and by those who have no clue) that it's not worth the effort. I wished Voodoo well and hoped they've be successful, not sure how that worked out. But, that's just the way it is. You have to be the type that can an ass kickin' and keep coming back to get even next time to play 3-gun. It's just really hard, especially them sporter thangs, and that's what made it enjoyable and challenging. I don't have any answers, just hope it continues on and grows.

 

[Pete Wass]

The changes:

This was my 13th winter in Florida. The first year I came here there were 2 venues I could shoot IR 50/50 at each month and I didn't miss any of the matches. The winds of Manatee was the first one to fold up because the club didn't want to have the range tied up of a day with too few people using it. Bill Smith hung on at Jacksonville until his health failed him but his numbers were small at the end of his running matches. 12 years ago, people came from all over the East Coast to shoot in the Crawfish match. The match director who replaced Bill decided to shoot only UL so they still do , as far as I know. I didn't bring a rifle this year. I never have liked just shooting UL. With the new UL only, several new people showed up with all new equipment and a couple had new rifles made. The atmosphere changed entirely and I no longer felt at home there so I let my membership there lapse.

The problem with old people is they die and I'm now in the old people category. Most of the friends I acquired early on here have slowly passed away, as they say. That takes the enjoyment out, when those one really enjoyed being with, are no longer around. I've weighed liquidating my RF stuff all winter and may do that. The enjoyment went away, for me at least.

Pete

 

[tim]

This was my 13th winter in Florida. The first year I came here there were 2 venues I could shoot IR 50/50 at each month and I didn't miss any of the matches. The winds of Manatee was the first one to fold up because the club didn't want to have the range tied up of a day with too few people using it. Bill Smith hung on at Jacksonville until his health failed him but his numbers were small at the end of his running matches. 12 years ago, people came from all over the East Coast to shoot in the Crawfish match. The match director who replaced Bill decided to shoot only UL so they still do , as far as I know. I didn't bring a rifle this year. I never have liked just shooting UL. With the new UL only, several new people showed up with all new equipment and a couple had new rifles made. The atmosphere changed entirely and I no longer felt at home there so I let my membership there lapse.

The problem with old people is they die and I'm now in the old people category. Most of the friends I acquired early on here have slowly passed away, as they say. That takes the enjoyment out, when those one really enjoyed being with, are no longer around. I've weighed liquidating my RF stuff all winter and may do that. The enjoyment went away, for me at least.

Pete

Show up and make new friends Pete, shoot whatever. Shooting beats not shooting.Just because it changed is not reason to wave a white flag and quit.

 

[Pete Wass]

I'm still shootin

Show up and make new friends Pete, shoot whatever. Shooting beats not shooting.Just because it changed is not reason to wave a white flag and quit.

I went back to CF Score shooting a couple of years ago. Different kinda folks in CF Score shooting. Much more laid back, smaller hat sizes, generally. I've known most of the folks for years and some since I first started doing it in 1999. The newer ones are easy to get to know as well. I spent about 6 years shooting RF full time and running matches. My main goal was to get in the IR HOF and was able to do that. On the CF side, I got my 100 th agg patch last summer. That was a goal as well so I am simply having fun now. Chasing ammo isn't a lot of fun for me any more. I can make nearly perfect ammo in my reloading room at home, Easy Peasy. Three venues in Maine to shoot at, one 4 miles away another 40 minutes away and the third 80 minutes away so I'm pretty good. I make one trip to Vermont for their State and shoot most of the Ct matches and that's it. No more Nationals or far distant traveling for me.

Pete

 

[J.B. Books]

Vudoo V-22S - Update on ARA Competitions

I agree, it is and was expensive, to play the game. I've seen from experience that any new equipment that's introduced to the game gets ridiculed so much,(and by those who have no clue) that it's not worth the effort. I wished Voodoo well and hoped they've be successful, not sure how that worked out. But, that's just the way it is. You have to be the type that can an ass kickin' and keep coming back to get even next time to play 3-gun. It's just really hard, especially them sporter thangs, and that's what made it enjoyable and challenging. I don't have any answers, just hope it continues on and grows.

Kent ... I'd like to address your question re:Vudoo "not sure how that worked out".

Vudoo Gun Works started shipping the V-22S benchrest products in the fall of 2020. I own one of the earliest production models that I've shot in only a few ARA competitions. A friend of mine who's a seasoned shooter optimized the action and tuned the ignition (springs and firing pin). He shot a perfect 2500 score with my rifle in February 2021. I (we) continue to work with the rifle and I'm optimistic that it can become competitive. Currently, my Vudoo is not my number one rifle. I'm like others who compete - we shoot what we feel is our most competitive equipment when we go to big sanctioned matches and develop our other rifles on our own time.

That's the story for my V-22S ... I've also got some comments about other ARA competitors who shoot V-22S builds.

I know of six other V-22S rifle owners who have shot ARA matches ... I think the most successful V-22S competition to date was at the 2021 ARA Outdoor Nationals. The only Vudoo in competition led the pack of 102 shooters through four cards but fell to seventh place at the end of the eight card match. To me, that seems like a very successful showing.

Another Vudoo V-22S build is being shot by a friend who lives/competes in ARA Region 1. His V-22S is a full custom built by a very competent gunsmith/competitor. This rifle is esthetically beautiful and promises to be competitive. The builder fashioned a crescent firing pin that seems to have addressed the most common complaint - the ignition - about the V-22S action. I believe his best finish was 2nd in a field of twenty-eight competitors in a January indoor three card warmup match.

Granted, the V-22S builds have yet to make their mark on the BIG STAGE but they are making headway. With only one competitive season in the books they've gathered a small following and seem to have the potential of becoming more competitive as gunsmiths and shooters further their understanding of the action.

The importance of having more options for competitors to build on can not be overstated ... the rimfire benchrest community is dominated by two action manufacturers and, I believe, the community should welcome additions but only if they are equal to or superior to existing products.

Time will tell,

J.B. Books

 

[tim]

You make an interesting point, however, for ANY of this to happen in a truly competitive environment, top flight gunsmiths need to embrace/develop the platform. It sounds like there have been approx. two and one of them has had fairly consistent issues after a short time.Top flight gunsmiths, typically, don’t want to be beta testers. Thus, the dilema.

 

[tonykharper]

You make an interesting point, however, for ANY of this to happen in a truly competitive environment, top flight gunsmiths need to embrace/develop the platform. It sounds like there have been approx. two and one of them has had fairly consistent issues after a short time.Top flight gunsmiths, typically, don’t want to be beta testers. Thus, the dilema.

Tim the other problem is according to the designer only two RFBR gunsmiths on the planet can actually rebarrel a Vudoo properly all other attempts have been laughable.

I see his post to that effect on the other channel has been taken down so maybe he has changed his mind. You know like he changed his mind on the way the action ejects, three locking lugs that actually locked, and the crescent firing pin.

It is a fact that we need more choices of RFBR actions. They will only come about by smiths that actually have the capability to learn from what has been successful before and not copy with small modifications the flaws of the past.

TKH (4628)

 

[tim]

Well, I guess since they sell actions they figured perhaps, not the best marketing approach.