Indexing Again

H

hulk

Guest
I swore I would never do this again but some people never learn. Again, I respect Bill Calfee, he has earned it. So to his bodyguards, if you don't like my "tone", you know where you can stick it.

A crooked barrel in a slave action, shoots "killer". Move it to a different slave action, in a different rotational position since the extractor slots are no longer in alignment, still shoots 'killer". Once more, different rotational position, still shoots "killer". Now from a gentlemen that has come a long way in using a computer, posting his own messages on his forum and even posting his own pictures, I find it odd that Bill did not photograph any targets, any groups, any crayon drawings, nothing. This is exactly what he neglected to do before when he did his indexing experiments and announced that indexing did not work. His opinion or theory, it may be, however, not the smallest bit of hard evidence has been offered. Sounds like the guy shooting his 10/22 in a postal match, who thinks that shooting at 15 yards and writing 50 yards on the target means that his rifle shoots great "all day long".

Moving forward, Mike Ross posts some messages on Bill's forum. Now, everyone, with half a brain, knew that the powers that be would never allow Mike to compete with Bill for the spotlight for very long. Things were civil for a short time but two old guys that cannot remember whether letters were written and sent leads to one having his character brought into question, and you know which one that was. Again, I find it odd that "dirty laundry" is exposed, at least one side of it, to the light of day, in this case but when a barrel goes "missing", only the involved parties can talk about it.

So much for open minds and fairness but it is Bill's forum, so Bill's rules apply.

Mike Ross has also earned my respect. This is not hero worship. The one difference is that when Mike has an opinion or theory, there is no shortage of photographs showing what his experiments demonstrate. Yes, those photographs could be "doctored" like our 10/22 shooter but I do not see any agendas here. In addition, several other gunsmiths have replicated the barrel indexing testing and produced the same results.

This is the other side of things that technology has spawned. Anyone can have a website, anyone with desktop publishing software can be an author and fools like me can attempt to set the record straight.
 
Not saying ya or nay to anything. Two completely different approaches. Mike's -Barreled action ridgedly held in his lathe, assembly fired form X # of index points by rotation of chuck. Bill's- action in a stock, action did not change orientation, fired from a rest. Barrel indexed to different points in action( I think can't remember). Not apples to apples, nectarines to peaches maybe. Therefore both have validity in their respective approaches.
 
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Thanks Hulk, it had to be said. I've held my tongue long enough. I've followed both Mikes and BC's posting, and only Mikes, confirms what my long time friend and smith Dale Wise produced back in the late 60's and 70's. Sad, but Dale's out of it now, and can't comment on how he acheived his results. I'm still a confident, that it works, and know without a doubt, history will continue to repeat itself, or should I say, some will insist, they are the one that has discover the one and only secret to accuraccy, .
 
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Hulk,
Thanks for posting your thoughts and your know fool. I like Fred have bit my tongue more than a few times here, and other sites. It's a sad notion when someone talks about integrity and character but lacks in both areas IMO. One thing I will disagree with which has been stated on that forum is, it's not Bill's site, but agree with the rest of what you have posted. I have spoken to a few that believe indexing helps, along with what I've tested with one particular barrel.

That's true anyone can have a website, but it's how one conducts themselves in how long it will last.
 
thanks hulk. does mike ross have a web site, if so do you know the address? thanks.
 
blades said:
Not saying ya or nay to anything. Two completely different approaches. Mike's -Barreled action ridgedly held in his lathe, assembly fired form X # of index points by rotation of chuck. Bill's- action in a stock, action did not change orientation, fired from a rest. Barrel indexed to different points in action( I think can't remember). Not apples to apples, nectarines to peaches maybe. Therefore both have validity in their respective approaches.
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blades ya need to get your story straight, the Ross never indicated that he used his lathe to hold the indexed action to test. ya need to re-read how Mike tested for indexing.
I also need to indicate that calfee needs to re-direct efforts in the indexing propcess so as to attain the benefits of same.
remember! never squat with yer spurs on
Clarence
 
Two people said in that indexing thread Calfee had a hidden agenda. BILL REPEATED OVER AND OVER AND OVER INDEXING WOULD NOT WORK FOR WEEKS AND MONTHS.

Until Mike Ross made his post. There my friends was the hidden agenda -simply put Mike Ross was sucked into the one sided debate/trap so Bill and Wallace Smallwood could attack Mike, then lock the thread before Mike had any rebuttal. Cunning but unethical at the very least from a forum owner. It is just my opinion but Bill's greater skill than gun-smithing is the art of deception. I will give it to him he is a master at both his crafts.

hulk if you don't mind i would like to borrow a quote from you:
Again, I respect Bill Calfee, he has earned it. So to his bodyguards, if you don't like my "tone", you know where you can stick it.
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Jack C
 
For anyone that is interested, Mike Ross has posted his side of the story on the forum that he hosts. The link was generously provided by Fred J.

It appears that Mike has made this effort since certain posts he authored were deleted from Bill's forum under the guise of "due diligence".

Again, I have no idea who is telling the truth, who remembers what or who forgot what. It could be some combination of all of these. I do know that to call someone a liar and bring their character into question should mean there is no shadow of a doubt. Read everything for yourself and draw your own conclusion.

Since all of this is about opinions, allow me mine. I will never know the motivation behind these actions but the crap being presented as fair minded reasoning needs to be saved for people who believe in the tooth fairy or for when this person runs for public office.
 
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All I can say is this........there are several GREAT gunsmiths in the U.S.. I know of one who has better equipment than the rest (maybe put together) and he knows how to use it. If the rest of the rimfire world would just see it then we'd all know that gunsmithing ain't no argument, it's an art and science and craftsmanship and love of one's work and honesty and friendship and just plain and simple what most of us shooters do not do. We just use the end product and use all the stuff that was already put into it. Opinions end at the gate to the range. The gunsmiths don't bet each other on the outcome. They hope their shooters (friends and customers) do well.

John M. Carper
 
Context.....

Howdy,
This may be found to be useful as well. Mike Ross' first post began on page 11, post 105.

http://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/Forums/showthread.php/401-Barrel-indexing-a-side-note

As Fred J posted, Mike Ross' forum is here:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Smallbore

The thread that is the topic of discussion is entitled "Calfee and Indexing".

If you click the green "Start Reading" button after registering, it will likely be the first thread that comes up. If not, go to the left hand side of the screen and scroll down to the "Indexing" section. If it is not showing, click on that section, and one should be able to see the "Calfee and Indexing" thread.

It will be beneficial to read the entire thread on both websites. I have referenced the spot where Mike Ross began posting on Rimfireaccuracy.com, and I have included the main thread of contention on Mike Ross' site as well.

One of the posts that has caused the most exitement on Mike Ross' site, is post #15 in the "Calfee and Indexing" thread.

Read all of both threads on each respective site for context.

Thanks,

Greg
 
Again, for anyone interested, Mike Ross has posted a copy of his reply to Bill Calfee's original letter on the forum that he hosts. Thank you again to FredJ, who I am not related to, for posting the link.

To be fair, Bill cannot recall writing the original letter and Mike cannot find it. Given that all of this took place 4 years ago, it is of no surprise. In addition, Bill claims to have never received Mike's reply. The possibility that Mike did not mail it must be considered. However, in reading the letter, it is clearly Mike's glib, verbose style and addresses issues that Bill would have raised then and continues to raise to this very day. Mike does claim that the reply is on his computer with a time and date stamp from 2006.

Lastly, post #15, that caused the "most excitement" was written earlier this year, 4 years after the exchange being discussed. Mike did misspeak but men of his age have been known to do that from time to time, especially on things that are far removed.

I did re-read everything for "content" and to find any deceit or conclude any deception is a stretch of Al Gore proportions, considering he "invented" the internet.
 
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hulk if you would permit me just one minor correction, Bill has a thread going on RA how he invented Eley and could get RWS to surpass Eley if they would only listen to him.

I did re-read everything for "content" and to find any deceit or conclude any deception is a stretch of Al Gore proportions, considering he "invented" the internet.
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This is just a small unknown fact, Al Gore really stole the Internet idea from Bill Calfee. It's True It's True!! Jack C
 
now jack we all know since bill c. invented the rimfire accuracy device aka the
barrel vibration stopper, the rimfire accuracy world has never been the same
irregardless of whether eley admits that bill invented the eps bullet.
 
Tom C. said:
irregardless of whether eley admits that bill invented the eps bullet.
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Yeah, Bill seemed to take it a bit personally when those EPS bullets started key-holing in cold weather from 17 twist barrels.
 
Calfee Bullet

Tom C. said:
now jack we all know since bill c. invented the rimfire accuracy device aka the
barrel vibration stopper, the rimfire accuracy world has never been the same
irregardless of whether eley admits that bill invented the eps bullet.
Click to expand...

Calfee designed the round nose bullet that was first packaged in the Semi Auto boxes.
 
i'm still waiting for the threaded anshutzs that dieter was gonna make,
poor old bill he just don't get no respect. why did he even bring up the
indexing thing again if it was a dead item? sure ran the look at thread
count up. and i have to ask, with the forward ring mount thing, has
anyone bent their scope up mounting that way, just seems it's kinda
hangin' there waitin' to get bent. just asking?
 
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All Things Calfee

Like all things Calfee, they can be difficult to understand. Some fly in the face of common sense, logic and the laws of physics. Some are highly intuitive. Typically, there is no hard evidence that these "theories" provide any measurable improvement, so they are simply different for the sake of being different.

Now I tried the rings on the same side of the scope turrets. Tried them to the front. Tried them to the rear. No problems, nothing bent, Leupold scope tubes are strong enough but even the custom shop guys were scratching their heads as to why this would lead to an accuracy improvement. When I explained my understanding of the "theory", well, at least, they did not laugh. They may not know rimfire benchrest like Bill but they certainly know optics. For the record, I saw no change, regardless of how the scope was mounted but my action is not a Turbo.

As for tuners/muzzle weights, no one has done more to promote, develop and refine their use than Bill. I don't know who invented this concept since it has been around for a long time. Barrels that look like Bill's sporter profile were seen in Europe on running target/running boar rifles long before they were popular in this country. Position shooters have long known that bloop tubes did more than just extend the sight radius. Bill may not have invented the tuner, however, the credit for their almost universal use rests with him. Credit where credit is due.
 
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