IBS and Precision Shooting Magazine

Boyd Allen said:
All of this could be done fairly simply, if all match directors would simply scan their results, and equipment lists, and instead of saving as PDFs or documents, saved them as JPEGs (pictures). This allows them to be uploaded to FREE photo hosting web sites, that will provide links to the files, as well as any accompanying pictures, which can be organized into an album for that match. These links can simply be emailed to all the members, and the documents and pictures saved on their computers, if they like, as well as being posted on the IBS web site. Of course copies of the files should be archived in case there is a problem with the hosting site. You guys need to put your check books back in your pockets, and use what is available for free, except for paying someone to organize the albums and email the links, which should take a minimum of effort.

The key is to get all of the match directors set up so that they can provide the needed files in a timely manner. While PDFs and documents can be converted, it is easier to simply save the scans as JPEGs (pictures) in the first place.
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Boyd,
I mean no offence but that is a terrible idea.
Image files (jpg gif etc.) are large files PDF files and word documents are tiny. PDF and word files are also searchable. One can also copy and paste from .doc or .pdf files to combine matches to figure multiple match target aggs. Not important to short range but it is for Long Range.



James
 
Charles,
Sanctioning bodies provide rules and a basis for establishing records, a mechanism for settling disagreements, as well as maintaining continuity over time. They can also make changes and plan for the future in an organized manner.

If someone is at a match, he will have to look down the page to see who did what. If he prints the image file at home, he will be in the same position as if he were there, or had received them in a publication. As it is, the whole list is not commonly published, except at the match, and for the largest matches.
Boyd
 
Concerning match results....

The ONLY way is to make it easy for the clubs to submit the results. The ONLY way to make it easy is to supply them a scoring program that uploads the scores without further formatting. The uploaded scores would then be automagically imported into a database for search and display.

Behold the IR50/50 website - http://ir5050.com

Every score related page there comes from a database on request. The "running totals" are calculated from the database as well. Doug Weeter wrote an Excel scoring program that formats the results for the clubs to send in by email. The site admin copies the scores straight into the database and invokes a program that does the rest. What is missing there is the ability for the club to upload scores straight to the site thus eliminating the middle man - which is always gonna be slower and an unnecessary dependency.
 
I did not mean to say that the material could not be saved, and made available in more than one way. I was merely talking of alternatives for the common distribution of match results in a manner that would be easy and virtually without cost. All that would be sent would be the links, so file size is not an issue. As it is, match results in print have none of the search, or copy, and paste options. Of course there are more sophisticated ways to handle this, but if having them in a magazine is satisfactory, except for the cost, than having the equivalent to what would have been in the magazine should be a viable option. The software that Wilbur wrote of has been available for some time, and it has not even come close to being universally adopted, so it seems to me that making plans based on the assumption that it will be is a bit premature. An example of the sort of link that I wrote of (Try it. It works.) :

http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af340/fresburgflash/EastWest053.jpg


 
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By the way, in case people don't know of this, the OpenOffice products have been available to users for free, for years. We got tired of paying for Microsoft's products about 5-6 years ago, and have been using it in our office ever since

http://www.openoffice.org/
 
Not talking about available software but rather a turnkey scoring program that does it all - like Bughole but with an upload function.

Go home, connect to the i'net, run the saved scoring program and, voila!...the results appear on the website.
 
Wilbur said:
Not talking about available software but rather a turnkey scoring program that does it all - like Bughole but with an upload function.

Go home, connect to the i'net, run the saved scoring program and, voila!...the results appear on the website.
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We used the Scoring program for our 50/50 matches in Maine this past season and after a learning curve, we did fine with it. I sure like the being able to email the results in and being able to print the Awards Cirtificates for the folks who placed in just a few minutes after the protest period ends. It didn't cost us a whole lot for awards this year. Of course I am the one who has the $$$ invested in the Laptop, Printer and Inverter, for my car, to run the printer with but then I wanted the computer and printer for home anyway, the inverter was less than $20. and I don't mind sharing. Mostly, I wanted our shoots to be a success for the participants, the Club and the Org. We did that. I feel the cost to me was well worth what I spent and I get to use the machines all the time at home. It sure is nice to be able to scan a document I needed to sign to a file then email it to who it needs to go to. I do have a problem with not being able to use the Microsoft Email Function and the shop where I bought the computer said they couldn't help as the Microsoft Email function was a mystery to them as well.

What I haven't said yet is I had the help of a professional IT person who is Jo Hassam, a shooter and great person. She made the learning curve shorter. Thank You Jo!

That program works well but it requires learning how to use it and going by the directions. It is not very forgiving, from my experience, but it is fantastic in what it allows us to do with it. SAVE ! EVERY TIME.

Having said that, there is no way to make a horse drink, I have always heard so those who are not Computer Interested are never going to be. It is hinted at, at least, one reason for the demise of the magazine was the Horse would not drinking so perhaps we who do sip now and again should let thoese who won't remain at the edge of the water. Sad set of circumstances but then Wilbur's Son was right.

With a Microsoft Tablet, a printer, a Smart Phone and inverter, one can do everything we did with my laptop AND email the results in from the range :)
 
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Dream sheet

OK, here's what I'm talking about - I've got time now to explain. My stock pot is bubbling nicely and shouldn't need attention for a good while.

The scoring program I imagine is downloaded from the internet and installed as a standalone program - needs nothing else to run.

Once installed, and prior to each match, the user clicks "Update" and the program gets the latest list of competitor names, match schedules, records, club info and membership dates from the internet.

The user selects the scheduled match from a dropdown list and is ready to go. The program already knows what classes and yardages to present from the schedule data.

Enter the competitor names using the very convenient method that Bughole now uses. In case y'all haven't had the pleasure, Bughole does this best. The only way it could be better is if it already had the names of folks that have previously competed - and it would.

Select a few exceptions for those competitors that aren't shooting the entire match, group those that are sharing flags and click "draw benches". Hang out the result so folks can set flags and wait for tomorrow.

Bughole has a good interface for entering scores as well. Would be difficult to improve. If somebody shoots a record the program would say so.

Of course, the class and multi-gun results would print along the way - Bughole does this well.

Match over, trophies passed out, everybody on the road home...the Match Director goes home, opens the program, types up a match "report" (optional) and clicks "SEND RESULTS". Surely a password would be involved but the program uploads the results, new competitor data, and the match report. The website automatically creates a link and formats the results for viewing when requested. Each competitor is sent an email notification that the results are available and a link to the same. Next match anywhere, the new competitor data would be available. Oh yeah, and the program prints out a voucher telling the club treasurer how much to send to "headquarters".

This is doable. In fact, I've already done it sans the user friendly interface that is so very important. The mechanics are simple...it's that darn interface...

Plenty of upsides but there's also a few downsides. The upsides are obvious. The downsides are that any course of fire changes would require a re-write and it's too easy to dream up additional capabilities. For example, the NBRSA could use the data to instantly calculate and display world team standings...or shooter of the year for the individual regions.

Soooo..., what you have is a self sustaining, no middle man required, method of doing everything the competitor cares about.
 
I have used Doug Weeter's score program for multiple years. Almost all entries are from a dropdown menu which works well but it also necessitates plenty of data entries to update the dropdown menus, particularly the equipment lists. There are a limited number of choices with some of the fields. The program has an "email results" option which converts the programs data into an excel file with a sheet for results and a sheet for equipment, of which you save and email out as an excel or as a pdf file. I have found it easier to enter the equipment at that juncture instead of entering it into the scoring program itself. It wouldn't be if people didn't change equipment much but they do (at least for the shoots I do). The drop down menues of the scoring program vs the entry completion of excel goes to excel for speed of entry. As fine a program as Mr. Weeter has devised, it still takes me upwards of an hour or two to complete the entry data before sending it to Dick for the IBS website. Obviously if someone could manage the data entry while at the match, then it would not need to be done by me after getting home but as it is, we have barely enough people to run the match.

If something can be tweeked as Wilbur suggests then it would be a big plus for the people responsible to report the match results.
Randy J.
 
Wilbur, partly I'm just being lazy, but also, I'm not a programmer. A significant part of the IBS schedule now is long range, 600 and 1,000 yards, each using slightly different scoring systems, but both needing to keep track of both score and group, and for 600 yards, aggs in both.

Can the bughole program handle that?
 
No, nothing in existence right now is adequate. I referenced Bughole only as examples of what the user interface should be. Further, I don't believe a "one size fits all" would be a good thing....but I could easily be wrong. Each discipline would need it's own scoring program uploading to a common area.
 
FBecigneul said:
How exact and how necessary is the equipment list anyway.
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Can't speak to necessary as I've tried to get rid of them and failed. Got out voted by folks that never had to type one up.

As to exact, the current accuracy of equipment listings would be no less accurate if members simply updated their equipment within their "member profile" on this dream website.

Go here - http://www.ir5050.com/results2?Date=10/13/12&clubid=94

Hover your mouse pointer over the first name in the listing - Greg Davis. The info that appears is automatic from the database. By automatic, I mean that nobody has to keep it updated. The equipment in this case was reported by the match director but it could just as easily (easier on the match director) have been drawn from a user profile.
 
Wilbur said:
Can't speak to necessary as I've tried to get rid of them and failed. Got out voted by folks that never had to type one up.

As to exact, the current accuracy of equipment listings would be no less accurate if members simply updated their equipment within their "member profile" on this dream website.

Go here - http://www.ir5050.com/results2?Date=10/13/12&clubid=94

Hover your mouse pointer over the first name in the listing - Greg Davis. The info that appears is automatic from the database. By automatic, I mean that nobody has to keep it updated. The equipment in this case was reported by the match director but it could just as easily (easier on the match director) have been drawn from a user profile.
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In my opinion, the Equipment list is useless unless the competitor tells the truth and even at that, what exactly IS the point of it anyway? All it does at ths point is give some folks things to argue about, I.E. which Gunsmith's work won the latest big match. I am of a mind that the shooter won the match and made all the right choices.
 
Good Evening, Is it possible,(read likely), that if we opted to publish info and match results in the NBRSA mag, sharing that venue and the info might bring the two organizations closer together? I don't think it would hurt. But I've only been shooting for 3 years. I'd be interested in what saltier shooters think. Also, the internet is great, but there are few pleasures equal to sitting down with a cup of coffee and a good book, PS qualifies. imho.------ Cheers, Charles
 
cbrock said:
Good Evening, Is it possible,(read likely), that if we opted to publish info and match results in the NBRSA mag, sharing that venue and the info might bring the two organizations closer together? I don't think it would hurt. But I've only been shooting for 3 years. I'd be interested in what saltier shooters think. Also, the internet is great, but there are few pleasures equal to sitting down with a cup of coffee and a good book, PS qualifies. imho.------ Cheers, Charles
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Well, it is possible. It makes sense for the shooters, but don't think it could happen just now. The rift was wide & deep, and oddly enough, one of the causes for the split was the publication.

In the 1990s, benchrest grew, substantially. It seems to be shrinking again. Nowadays, "benchrest" seems to be about competition only, particularly in short-range group & score, though the "competition only" trend is growing in long-range too. Not sure if that would help a merger, or hinder it.

On the plus-for-merger side, there is less & less cross coverage, with NBRSA shooting mainly group, IBS mainly score and long range. But NBRSA just added the equivalent of VFS, and then there are all those separate records...

We all do agree about the coffee...
 
for those wanting a magazine

Questions for those wanting a magazine:
- Do you want a magazine to see the IBS criteria or just for the magazine itself ?
- Did you like the IBS coverage as was in PS ?
I may very well be wrong here..... but can't help but feel those wanting a magazine again are wanting it for a magazine to read/view, and not so much as to the IBS coverage.
Myself, I liked PS for a magazine on a whole, but not at all as to the IBS coverage.

As to IBS results, schedules, records, news, standings, etc.... I find best coverage to these aspects on the Website in good detail, that were only partial depictions in PS, far from adequate coverage, that was marginal at best.
Many range results never or hardly ever got published, and very little coverage to details. And very poor coverage of IBS business all together.

IBS Member
Donovan Moran
 
Pete Wass said:
In my opinion, the Equipment list is useless unless the competitor tells the truth and even at that, what exactly IS the point of it anyway? All it does at ths point is give some folks things to argue about, I.E. which Gunsmith's work won the latest big match. I am of a mind that the shooter won the match and made all the right choices.
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Your comment about the gunsmith argument got me thinking...I don't recall such an argument within the ranks of centerfire shooters - unlike rimfire. Wonder what's up with that...?
 
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