J
JackieStogsdill
Guest
I was told that Calfee said centerfire was easy to build compared to rimfire.
IBS and Precision Shooting Magazine
- Thread starter Jeff Stover
- Start date
Mike Bryant
Active member
The equipment list is only as good as the competitor makes it. Sometimes the equipment list may be filled out several months before the match on some of the larger matches with pre-registration. By the time the match gets here, he may not even be shooting the same rifle that's listed on the equipment list. The competitor has to take the time to update it. For most of us, it doesn't make much difference what we put on the equipment list as you have to win or place at the top for it to ever be seen.
By the way, in case someone is politically correct, I know that there are women competitors, but when I was in school, I was taught to use he for both male and female where both are involved. I see no reason to change that rule of the English language to be politically correct. (The he in bold is what I'm talking about as probably politically incorrect anymore)
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Francis,
I will tend to agree with you, but IMO opinion more importantly it's also time consuming. When I was running IBS VFS matches here, Sunday mornings after a match were a major PIA. It usualy took a couple of hours to match up the equipment lists from the sign up sheets to the computer data. Then I had to get the mailing list together for all the copies required to send to people who wouldn't get them in an email, which included Precision Shooting. Life is much easier now with UBR.
I do think Wilbur has an excellent idea. A universal program that will handle both score & group that can be accessed by match directors, with the results available online for all to see is a good one. Printed media is a thing of the past. People can either get on board or be left behind to catch up later. It would be stupid to hold everyone back for the few who refuse to deal with the available technology that makes life simpler. JMO
Rick
Future projection of book sales is that digital editions may make up as much as 50% total sales...
Actually, I'll bet is splits with a higher than 50% rate for mass-market paperbacks going digital, and lower for books that need to present data, or images.
What you've said is sort of like "bolt action rifles are a thing of the past."
In the end, the better media, like rifles, depends on what you want to do.
Charles,
Actually I "pulled the trigger" a little too quick on that one. I was really thinking about magazines more than books and such. I do prefer real books to digital stuff myself. I think specialized things like we are talking about probably won't be cost effective in printed form. Also, I've thought for years that information is more easily found/shared on forums like this than in magazine form. That has been one of the complaints about PS and VHM for quite some time. Do you think there are enough folks who want reading material for their "personal alone time" to pay the bills for a slick paper publication? Maybe, but I doubt it. But hey, what do I know?
Rick
For equipment lists, the current problem is the table structure of "digital publishing," aside from PDF. Yeah, EPUB3 has the spec, but try to use it. On multiple devices. I have no doubt that will be attended to.
One thing about any kind of digital publishing versus print publishing, is speed. Since it can be fast, there is considerable effort spent to get it out there fast. The vetting part of conventional publishing is often lacking. Whether or not PS fell into that trap is a real issue.
Personally, I don't think print is needed for match reports. The old NBRSA News was just match reports. It was mailed to the door, but I didn't read it. Occasionally I looked at the pictures to see what some people looked like. Saw my first picture of Don in Redondo in a match report. I remember that. Not the match info.
* * *
The real question of print versus digital to me, is what does NBRSA and IBS want to do? If simply to give reports on competitions, what's the need for print? I guess seeing your name if you win? Contrast that with if there is to be reports on work going on to build the most accurate rifles possible. For that, we probably need print, and all print offers. Which brings up the nasty question "Who's to pay?"
My personal belief, probably not shared, is if benchrest becomes just another form of competition, it will fade away. Other forms of competition seem more attractive.
But look at that guy with a tactical rifle over on the "Centerfire Benchrest" forum? Why is he posting here? Because he believe benchrest holds some accuracy information about reloading. He's not even sure what benchrest is, but he still equates "benchrest" with "accuracy."
Well, maybe. But if it is all past glory & no innovation, that won't last much longer.
One thing about any kind of digital publishing versus print publishing, is speed. Since it can be fast, there is considerable effort spent to get it out there fast. The vetting part of conventional publishing is often lacking. Whether or not PS fell into that trap is a real issue.
Personally, I don't think print is needed for match reports. The old NBRSA News was just match reports. It was mailed to the door, but I didn't read it. Occasionally I looked at the pictures to see what some people looked like. Saw my first picture of Don in Redondo in a match report. I remember that. Not the match info.
* * *
The real question of print versus digital to me, is what does NBRSA and IBS want to do? If simply to give reports on competitions, what's the need for print? I guess seeing your name if you win? Contrast that with if there is to be reports on work going on to build the most accurate rifles possible. For that, we probably need print, and all print offers. Which brings up the nasty question "Who's to pay?"
My personal belief, probably not shared, is if benchrest becomes just another form of competition, it will fade away. Other forms of competition seem more attractive.
But look at that guy with a tactical rifle over on the "Centerfire Benchrest" forum? Why is he posting here? Because he believe benchrest holds some accuracy information about reloading. He's not even sure what benchrest is, but he still equates "benchrest" with "accuracy."
Well, maybe. But if it is all past glory & no innovation, that won't last much longer.
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Couldn't agree more, Charles. -Al
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Am I reading this right? Do some here believe that the future of BR is contingent on a printed magazine? If so, the sport is ultimately doomed to fail as are most printed magazine publications, particularly those with smaller audiences such as ours. I enjoy reading a magazine related to our sport as much as anyone but realize that it's a way of the past and costs far more than online publications. I wonder how many people below the age of about 25 subscribe to printed magazines vs. online.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Several of the top shooters are using tuners for centerfire. I saw several at the Super Shoot and the IBS Nats this year.
There were a few shooters using tuners at River Bend a couple of weeks ago.
Given enough time???
Nope. You can remove sevral things from benchrest and it would continue. Suppose we said "no matches west of the Mississippi"? It would continue. Or the more draconian "Only a 6ppc will be allowed in CF group matches." I bet it would still keep on.
There is a critical mass, though. Go to far, and no one pays any attention to you. There are what, 4,000,000 NRA members? Last time I looked at membership in NBRSA it was around 1,500. Same for IBS. Let's pretend that they're all in the U.S. and there is no overlap -- 3,000 shooters committed to formal benchrest, either group, score, or long range.
Lessee, 3,000 is 0.075 percent of the total NRA membership. What does benchrest have to offer that other 99.925 percent of the shooting public? How do they even find out about you?
And y'all want to grow the sport? I imagine a magazine would be a financial loss, based on subscription and advertising revenues. How about chalking it's purpose up to promotion & advertising?
Charles -
How much $??,???.00 per year was the IBS paying PS?
Do you think that costs was an effective price tag to "promotion & advertising" for that amount of exposure?
How many people do think the IBS could have exposure to if they were to put forth that same $??,???.00 to "promotion & advertising"on the World-wide Web (Internet)?
IMO - comparing the NRA to Benchrest, and all it's status to legislation, gun rights, lobbied efforts, multiple shooting disciplines, etc.. is a very poor comparison and detriment to the facts, status, and numbers.
While I also am all for "promotion & advertising"!!!... the cost of doing so in magazine publications for good exposure will not even begin to come close to the amount exposure that it would with a yearly Internet campaign, at the same price tag.
The amount of IBS coverage in the PS magazine was far from what I would call "full coverage" or "good coverage", with very few sanctioned ranges having coverage/exposure. Also was not what I would consider quality ""promotion & advertising".
Think I remembered you posting a few times how you did not want PS sent to you when you renewing your IBS memberships (am I remembering currently or do I have you confused with someone else), which I respected and chalked up to figuring you also did not like IBS coverage in PS and may have been your reasoning for those posts.
IBS Member
Donovan Moran
How many subscribers were there to PS magazine? (both regular subscribers + IBS members)
How much $??,???.00 per year was the IBS paying PS?
Do you think that costs was an effective price tag to "promotion & advertising" for that amount of exposure?
How many people do think the IBS could have exposure to if they were to put forth that same $??,???.00 to "promotion & advertising"on the World-wide Web (Internet)?
IMO - comparing the NRA to Benchrest, and all it's status to legislation, gun rights, lobbied efforts, multiple shooting disciplines, etc.. is a very poor comparison and detriment to the facts, status, and numbers.
While I also am all for "promotion & advertising"!!!... the cost of doing so in magazine publications for good exposure will not even begin to come close to the amount exposure that it would with a yearly Internet campaign, at the same price tag.
The amount of IBS coverage in the PS magazine was far from what I would call "full coverage" or "good coverage", with very few sanctioned ranges having coverage/exposure. Also was not what I would consider quality ""promotion & advertising".
Think I remembered you posting a few times how you did not want PS sent to you when you renewing your IBS memberships (am I remembering currently or do I have you confused with someone else), which I respected and chalked up to figuring you also did not like IBS coverage in PS and may have been your reasoning for those posts.
IBS Member
Donovan Moran
Donovan,
I'm all ears. As with so many of my posts, I'm not saying "this is the answer." Rather, I'm trying to indicate that the success or failure of any one kind of thing, from Precision Shooting to the 6mm Dasher, is not the final answer. Anytime you rest on your laurels, you'd better be prepared to have the sheet pulled up over your head. Same with decamping from failures that were sound at the core.
I loved Precision Shooting in the early 1990s, when I was new to the sport, and (perhaps) the articles were different. Whether it was my newness or the different articles isn't really the point. I happen to think it was the articles, what if someone else doesn't?
A periodical is one way to reach an audience, and unlike the internet, is an artifact. & the PS of the 1990s was not printed on coated paper, nor was it 4 color. Once you start talking about manufacturing costs -- I know little about distribution costs -- materials matter a lot.
Lot's of possibilities, too. A quarterly costs less than a monthly. For example, Match results on the internet, big match reports published quarterly would another form. And that could be a joint IBS/NBRSA venture. Or even a quarterly on the internet, and an annual published.
As someone wise once said at a Association of American University Presses annual meeting, "We have too much information. We don't have enough facts." Publishers who just rent their imprint are doomed. Authors will wise up & cut out a meaningless middleman. Publishers who perform service, on the other hand, will be paid gladly.
* * *
Maybe we'd be better off paying Tony Boyer-- or better, the WBC team -- to attend Camp Perry & put on an exhibition.
Maybe we'd be better off developing a package for a Savington that cost $500 and would let anyone come close to BR accuracy, and aside from BR shooting, didn't hurt the rifle for varmint hunting. etc.
I do believe, with some evidence, that (1) if more people aren't exposed to benchrest, and (2) if those that are find it's "secrets" equaled or surpassed by other forms of rifles & competition, then benchrest will become just another trip down nostalgia lane. Or maybe that's a plus, how many black powder shooters are there?
I'm all ears. As with so many of my posts, I'm not saying "this is the answer." Rather, I'm trying to indicate that the success or failure of any one kind of thing, from Precision Shooting to the 6mm Dasher, is not the final answer. Anytime you rest on your laurels, you'd better be prepared to have the sheet pulled up over your head. Same with decamping from failures that were sound at the core.
I loved Precision Shooting in the early 1990s, when I was new to the sport, and (perhaps) the articles were different. Whether it was my newness or the different articles isn't really the point. I happen to think it was the articles, what if someone else doesn't?
A periodical is one way to reach an audience, and unlike the internet, is an artifact. & the PS of the 1990s was not printed on coated paper, nor was it 4 color. Once you start talking about manufacturing costs -- I know little about distribution costs -- materials matter a lot.
Lot's of possibilities, too. A quarterly costs less than a monthly. For example, Match results on the internet, big match reports published quarterly would another form. And that could be a joint IBS/NBRSA venture. Or even a quarterly on the internet, and an annual published.
As someone wise once said at a Association of American University Presses annual meeting, "We have too much information. We don't have enough facts." Publishers who just rent their imprint are doomed. Authors will wise up & cut out a meaningless middleman. Publishers who perform service, on the other hand, will be paid gladly.
* * *
Maybe we'd be better off paying Tony Boyer-- or better, the WBC team -- to attend Camp Perry & put on an exhibition.
Maybe we'd be better off developing a package for a Savington that cost $500 and would let anyone come close to BR accuracy, and aside from BR shooting, didn't hurt the rifle for varmint hunting. etc.
I do believe, with some evidence, that (1) if more people aren't exposed to benchrest, and (2) if those that are find it's "secrets" equaled or surpassed by other forms of rifles & competition, then benchrest will become just another trip down nostalgia lane. Or maybe that's a plus, how many black powder shooters are there?
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David Apple
Member
Charles -
1000 Virginia 1,000yd Benchrest Club
1000 Whitehorse /WV
1000 Harry Jones - Fairmont WV
1000 GRRC / Harris MN
1000 Vapor Trail / Spickard MO
1000 Midwest Benchrest/Yukon MO
1000 Show Me BR / Downing Mo
1000 NC 1000yd / Range 4 Camp Butner
1000 Hawks Ridge Gun Club, NC
1000 Cool Acres / Swainsboro GA
600 Bridgeville DE
600 Pascagoula MS
600 Piedmont GC/ NC
600 M.S.S.A./ Memphis TN
600 Big Piney / Summersville MO
600 Vapor Trail / Spickard MO
600 O.R.S.A. / Oak Ridge TN
600 GRRC / Harris MN
600 Grant Co. Elbow Lake MN
600 BR St Louis MO
600 Midwest Benchrest Yukon MO
600 Columbus, WI
600 Pueblo, CO
* In the making .... Sioux Falls, SD -600
** (I also hear tell of a couple more possibles)
If my math is correct, I believe that is +10-times as many as there was in the 1990's.
With substantial growth in the past 3 years.
Just saying...
Donovan
Knowing your a long time active IBS Long Range competitor/member, how can you state these things when the growth to the IBS Long Range is on the rise tremendously. Look at the growth since "the 1990's":
1000 Virginia 1,000yd Benchrest Club
1000 Whitehorse /WV
1000 Harry Jones - Fairmont WV
1000 GRRC / Harris MN
1000 Vapor Trail / Spickard MO
1000 Midwest Benchrest/Yukon MO
1000 Show Me BR / Downing Mo
1000 NC 1000yd / Range 4 Camp Butner
1000 Hawks Ridge Gun Club, NC
1000 Cool Acres / Swainsboro GA
600 Bridgeville DE
600 Pascagoula MS
600 Piedmont GC/ NC
600 M.S.S.A./ Memphis TN
600 Big Piney / Summersville MO
600 Vapor Trail / Spickard MO
600 O.R.S.A. / Oak Ridge TN
600 GRRC / Harris MN
600 Grant Co. Elbow Lake MN
600 BR St Louis MO
600 Midwest Benchrest Yukon MO
600 Columbus, WI
600 Pueblo, CO
* In the making .... Sioux Falls, SD -600
** (I also hear tell of a couple more possibles)
If my math is correct, I believe that is +10-times as many as there was in the 1990's.
With substantial growth in the past 3 years.
Just saying...
Donovan
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Terry Balding
New member
Donovan
Add Columbus, WI to your list. We just finished our 600 yard range.
Add Columbus, WI to your list. We just finished our 600 yard range.
Chad Schmidt
Member
If the cost of the mag is the issue, buying and maintaining a web site must be free if the answer is to stop buying the magazine printing to spend it on a web site.
As for some of the internet comments access I do not think is the issue. Our federal overlords have been spending our taxes to subsidize access, heck they even sent me a letter offering to help.
Internet access is a great thing but sitting on the porch with a cold beverage and a good magazine is way better.
I paid for the IBS membership for the magazine, to hear what the founders and up and comers of our sport thought enough to write about. Since I still work I personally will not make the time to sort the hundreds of sites to find the folks that wrote articles are now engaged in the typical internet verbal "fencing" with a fellow shooter that does not share his opinion. I'd prefer the index page where I can read and refer to it without looking over the 1,896,987 items found 45 days later.
Just thought one more opinion could not hurt. I for one have notes and stuff hanging out of nearly all of them I have ever received. I for one will miss the magazine and the information I gleaned from it. Everyone have a blessed Christmas and may God bless you all.
As for some of the internet comments access I do not think is the issue. Our federal overlords have been spending our taxes to subsidize access, heck they even sent me a letter offering to help.
Internet access is a great thing but sitting on the porch with a cold beverage and a good magazine is way better.
I paid for the IBS membership for the magazine, to hear what the founders and up and comers of our sport thought enough to write about. Since I still work I personally will not make the time to sort the hundreds of sites to find the folks that wrote articles are now engaged in the typical internet verbal "fencing" with a fellow shooter that does not share his opinion. I'd prefer the index page where I can read and refer to it without looking over the 1,896,987 items found 45 days later.
Just thought one more opinion could not hurt. I for one have notes and stuff hanging out of nearly all of them I have ever received. I for one will miss the magazine and the information I gleaned from it. Everyone have a blessed Christmas and may God bless you all.