I Like Pawn Stars, But..........

jackie schmidt

jackie schmidt

New member
I was watching the other night and a guy brought in a old Stevens 3-trigger 12 gage shotgun. It wasn't worth what the guy wanted, so no sale.

But, during the discussion, Big Hoss said that he could tell by the swirls in the barrels that they were Damascus Steel. He added that the manufacturing proccess, which he did get right, resulted in the finest and strongest barrels ever built. I don't think so.

While I enjoy the little history lesson that they give with every item, they got it wrong on this. While the Damascus proccess was possibly state of the art back in the 1800's, it is not very strong when compared to any modern manufactured barrel. The usual answer to the question, "are they safe to shoot modern shells" is "no".

I still enjoy the show........jackie
 
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Damascus Steel was never used in a gun barrel. Nobody knows how it is made still to this day. People can fabricate steel that looks like it but it's not the same. Some real damascus samples exist and Jackie is correct, it's not as good as modern steels but it sure is pretty. Most damascus copies today are lamenated steel to produce the same look.

Hovis
 
Yeah Big Hoss got that one wrong but what can you expect? He's still po'ed that Chumlee became the star gunsmith on the reality show American Guns.
 
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HovisKM said:
Damascus Steel was never used in a gun barrel. Nobody knows how it is made still to this day. People can fabricate steel that looks like it but it's not the same. Some real damascus samples exist and Jackie is correct, it's not as good as modern steels but it sure is pretty. Most damascus copies today are lamenated steel to produce the same look.

Hovis
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Hovis,
I have my grandfather's double barrel shotgun, it's a 12GA Parker Bros. from the early 1900's. I've been told that it has a Damascus barrel. Have I been wrong all these years ?

If so, would you please enlighten me.

Dick
 
I believe the method of making a Damascus barrel was to wrap strips of steel and iron around a mandrel and heat and pound it into a weld.

I also believe there was an overlap of about 50 years when Damascus and fluid steel barrels were produced. Some of the highest quality Damascus barrels were nitro proofed and stood up just fine. The biggest problem was in those times they had no method of detection for unseen flaws and cheaper Damascus barrels were weak.

Because quality Damascus barrels were the accepted standard when fluid steel barrels were first produced, consumers missed the look and a pattern appearing like Damascus was etched on many barrels before the barrel was finished.

Sometimes when looking in the bore of a cheaper Damascus barrel you can see a spiral pattern of pitting the length of the barrel while a perfect pattern is displayed on the outside surface.

Here is an interesting site - http://www.damascus-barrels.com/
 
Damascus may not have ever been used in Rifle barrels however it was used in shotgun barrels.
That is why for decades (dont know if it still exists) there has always been a warning on boxes of shotgun shells not to use in damascus steel barrels.
But there is a difference in word definitions as Hovis alludes to that being whether it was the original damascus steel produced in the medieval times or what we call damascus steel here which was produced in the 1800 and early 1900's.
So in this case it is a matter of semantics.
 
My grandad used to talk about them damned ole damascus barrels sometimes he called them twist steel. I dont know if there the same thing or not. HE SAID THE BARRELS TODAY WERE ALOT STRONGER.


My grandad used to talk about damascus barrels sometimes he called them twist steel. Said the new barrels were alot stronger. I guess twist steel is the same thing? That was back in the 60s.
 
Vern,
I believe an American knifemaker by the name of Bill Moran came closest to duplication of medieval damascus. There are some very fine makers of damascus knife blanks as well as patterns.
 
Chino, You are correct.Bailey Bradshaw in east texas is or was a great knife maker and made his own damascus. He has built several single and double rife receivers from his damascus. You may do a search on the Accurate Reloading forum. He shows a step by step making his damascus and through to the finished rifle. A very very talented young man
 
I will stand by what I said.

Production of these patterned swords gradually declined, ceasing by around 1750, and the process was lost to metalsmiths. Several modern theories have ventured to explain this decline, including the breakdown of trade routes to supply the needed metals, the lack of trace impurities in the metals, the possible loss of knowledge on the crafting techniques through secrecy and lack of transmission, or a combination of all the above.[2][3][15]

The raw material for producing the original Damascus steel is believed to be wootz imported from India.[2][3] Due to the distance of trade for this raw material, a sufficiently lengthy disruption of the trade routes could have ended the production of Damascus steel and eventually led to the loss of the technique. As well, the need for key trace impurities of tungsten or vanadium within the materials needed for production of the steel may be absent if this material was acquired from different production regions or smelted from ores lacking these key trace elements.[2] The technique for controlled thermal cycling after the initial forging at a specific temperature could also have been lost, thereby preventing the final damask pattern in the steel from occurring.[2][3]

The discovery of carbon nanotubes in the Damascus steel's composition supports this hypothesis, since the precipitation of carbon nanotubes likely resulted from a specific process that may be difficult to replicate should the production technique or raw materials used be significantly altered.

Prior to the early 20th century, all shotgun barrels were forged by heating narrow strips of iron and steel and shaping them around a mandrel.[23][24] This process was referred to as "laminating" or "Damascus" and these barrels were found on shotguns that sold for $12.[23][24] These types of barrels earned a reputation for weakness and were never meant to be used with modern smokeless powder, or any kind of moderately powerful explosive.[24] Because of the resemblance to Damascus steel, higher-end barrels were made by Belgian and British gun makers.[23][24] These barrels are proof marked and meant to be used with light pressure loads.[23] Current gun manufacturers such as Caspian Arms make slide assemblies and small parts such as triggers and safeties for Colt M1911 pistols from powdered Swedish steel resulting in a swirling two-toned effect; these parts are often referred to as "Stainless Damascus".[25]



The steel we commonly called Damascus now is only in appearance...it is not Damascus.

Hovis
 
Pretty much the same thing I said i.e. we call it Damascus now and in the production of the shotguns.
And as I stated there is a difference in the original Damascus of the swords of the 1700's and before and what was/is called damascus for the steel of the shotguns listed in many places through out the article and other documentation.
Semantics.

and as hovis copied
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel
the whole article.
 
The reason that Damascus barrels on shotguns are dangerous is the fact that they can rust in between the wraps where you cannot see it. It may work fine but eventually it becomes very dangerous and I have seen two of them myself with a hole blown in the side of the barrel just about where your hand would be. Best thing is to be safe and not shoot these old guns.
 
Damascus Steel:

Didn't the Japanese sword makers keep the method alive, or did (do) they use a different process? They made, and still make, some very fine swords that are tough & sharp.

I certainly don't want a "twist steel" barrel on anything.

Jim
 
I could probably enjoy the show more if it was more accurately called "Pawn Zeros". The $8000 Husqvarna bobber really took the cake. They took a bike worth $800 to $1500 and spent $8000 on it to make it worth $400. I will stick with Antiques Roadshow.
 
The Japanese folded the steel again and again, Damascus barrels they wrapped a piece of steel around a rod side by side and welded it, polished and blued the outside and left small areas that could rust. A totally different process from sword making by the Japanese.
 
tbird1960 said:
The Japanese folded the steel again and again, Damascus barrels they wrapped a piece of steel around a rod side by side and welded it, polished and blued the outside and left small areas that could rust. A totally different process from sword making by the Japanese.
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I was referring to the process of making Damascus steel the ancient way for swords, etc,. I am well aware of the "twist steel" method and its weakness of hidden rust. The Japanese swordmakers use centuries old techniques. Thought this might be the way it used to be done.
 
Guys, this shotgun had old wrapped steel barrels. It wasn't some ancient miracle steel, or some lost proccess of manufacturing. It was made like thousands and thousands of old shotguns were made back in the 1800's and before.........jackie
 
The real issue of Damascus steel in shotguns is not whether it worked or not. Obviously it did.
It only became a problem with the new smokeless powder shotgun shells, thus the warning on the boxes, at least back in the 1970's.
 
HovisKM said:
Damascus Steel was never used in a gun barrel. Nobody knows how it is made still to this day. People can fabricate steel that looks like it but it's not the same. Some real damascus samples exist and Jackie is correct, it's not as good as modern steels but it sure is pretty. Most damascus copies today are lamenated steel to produce the same look.

Hovis
Click to expand...

Being as no one knows how it was made to this day how do we know that the damascus being made today is not in fact the same as was being made back then? Real poser isn't it?
 
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