Gritter's chambering video

Thanks required

Thankyou Jerry Sharrett for taking the time and effort to tell members how you chamber.
 
Enjoying the discussion!

But some of you are making this seem considerably more complicated than it really is. Doing it this way like we show in the DVD (please buy the DVD from Grizzly before you criticize this method too much) perfectly aligns the receiver to the chamber and to the beginning of the bore, and the muzzle is only ever so slightly offset to achieve this. The barrel still fits the barrel channel almost exactly the same, and there is absolutely nothing "crooked" about it. It works great - every single time without fail!

Roy B asked earlier about how much misalignment I'm seeing when I set up barrels this way, and how much is too much. Looking at my records for the past 2 years, the muzzle runout in benchrest barrels was anywhere from .003" to .031", with most barrels in the middle of this range, which isn't very much at all. I've seen hunting barrels as far out as .100" (quite rare) and once had one that was over .200", but I send them back if they go over .060" or so since I don't really like to see that much. I really have not seen any problems with accuracy with barrels anywhere in the .040"-.050" or below range, which almost all benchrest quality barrels are. I find quite a bit more problems when I slug and evaluate barrels as I get them from the manufacturers and I send them back when they show bore dimension problems - again this is rare with high quality benchrest barrels though.

If I am doing a barrel for a glue-in (which I seldom do anymore), I don't worry about trying to index the muzzle up or down (it will still shoot great without indexing it), but I definitely still align the chamber to the first few inches of bore ahead of it like I do everything now. I started to index muzzles "up" with the 1000 yard guns to get a few more (very few usually) minutes of elevation adjustment for some of the guys whose scopes were limited on elevation adjustment range. Even with the barrels that have the muzzle .030" or so out, this only makes for a very slight difference in windage or elevation, but for long range shooters I want as much elevation capability as I can get. If it's "off the paper" like someone said, that is a bad barrel, not a problem with doing it this way. I also like the idea of the weight of the barrel at the muzzle to be up or down, not at 3:00 or 9:00 if I can help it.

Somebody also mentioned about how this affects crowns. It doesn't matter which way you indicate the barrel in, the crown will be cut straight to the centerline of the lathe, just like the chamber would be - that's just basic machining. But in my opinion, no matter how much we may want it to be otherwise, if you indicate both ends of the bore to be running true at the throat and the crown, the bore WILL be curved in between those 2 points, and the bore WILL be coming down to the chamber and the crown at a slight angle, which I don't like to see. Just like at the chamber end, if you indicate the last 2 inches of bore before the crown to run straight and true, the crown will be cut just a little straighter to the bore (90 degrees as opposed to 89 3/4 degrees for example).

There is no question that guns will shoot extremely well done either way as we all know, but in my opinion I just feel it gives a slight edge doing it the way I do it now, and anything I can do to gain any edge at all I am going to do! Like I said earlier, since changing to this method my percentage of "so-so" barrels has noticeably gone down and the number of "hummers" has gone up.

Someone also asked if I'm selling these DVD's since they live in Canada. I'm sorry, but I'm not selling them at all - that is all done through Grizzly at this point. Not sure how to get them to Canada - maybe if you know someone coming to the SHOT shot, they could pick one up for you there.

Gordy Gritters
 
Gordy, please put me down for one DVD at the shot show. Can you hold one for me. Will see you there!

Regards,

Joe
RPS International Inc.
 
got offers to ship DVD

thanks GG for answering the question. look forward to watching you at work.

Jeff
 
RoyB said:
Ideally, you would do all this indicating on an unturned barrel blank, and when all the chamber work and muzzle work was done, then the barrel could be contoured between centers and get both chamber and muzzle back into the same plane...........

QUOTE]

Hi Roy,

Actually, it is not the cutting of the chamber and muzzle in Gordys method that would potentially set the muzzle off center to the stock alignment with a wandering barrel bore, but the cutting of the threads and shoulder in the same setup as the chamber cut which are the key elements in determining position.

No amount of re-contouring between centers after the thread and shoulder have been cut, will bring the barrel back into alignment.

My chambering method and results are almost identical to Gordys except for slight variations in the use of range rods, which is strictly an ease of setup variation.............Don
Click to expand...
 
DVD at SHOT show

Joe, will do. If for some reason we don't get together at the SHOT show, let me know and we'll get one up to you somehow right after that. Looking forward to meeting you there!

Gordy
 
Like Gordy says, Greg Tannel has a possibly workable holder. Greg does a lot of really good work.

But as to the run-of-the-mill floating holder here is what Greg says about them;

""Helpful hint: If you don't know how, or your tailstock simply can't be realigned, then one of the manufactured floating reamer holders on the market is what you will need to purchase to correct axis misalignment and give you the ability to ream straight chambers. But, on a floating reamer holder, nothing guides the back of the reamer, it goes where it wants. If the reamer starts crooked, it stays crooked, no matter how the barrel is lined up. It's up to you, my system where you know you're straight, or the others where you hope you're straight. "" http://www.gtrtooling.com/prod09.htm

This is why I think a floating pusher is best in all cases, trued tailstock or not.

The main problem with pushing with the tailstock center engaging the reamer center, it doesn't matter how much you level and re-level your lathe. If it is set on Gods earth, concrete floor, isolated base, etc. it is going to move, from now to ever more.

I've run too many tests with laser alignment equipment built special to align machine tools and steam turbines. Anything set on this earth is going to move, its just a matter of when and how much.
 
Gordy,
Are you saying that Grizzly will have the videos for sale at the shot show?
I know of a few guys from here(Canada) that are going, and I would get them to pick one up for me.
Thanks in advance,
Cdog.
 
hi all

i have been trying to get a copy of this DVD,but i can not get one sent to the UK,as there is a minimum order of $200
shame
ATB
Colin
 
Chambering video

All I can say is that I am totally lost. I've been looking for an excuse to buy the video so it looks like that will be the first order of business, followed by trying to understand what you fellows are discussing, and hopefully learn something in the process. If I'm not successful in this endeavor, the looming attraction of women of ill repute and strong drink may just overcome my curiosity; returning me to my former habits.
Chino69

p.s. Seriously, I can't think of a better way to keep one's mind sharp than reading some of the threads on this forum. It's kind of like going to gunsmithing lectures from the comfort of one's own home. Thanks to all you fellows for sharing your knowledge.
 
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Chino, if you need a reason to buy a video, you can mail me one!!!
I would certainly pay in advance, and pay any extra shipping charges, and even some extra fer a bottle of mind-numming solution!
It seems I'm running out of options on this. I can't beleive i'ts that hard to get a foolish video to Canada, grrrrrrr!!!!
Cdog.
 
Gordy,
The picture that you drew on the video with the reamer going in crooked is not true if you indicate the throat and drill and bore to that point.
Butch
 
Cdog,

I know Grizzly is supposed to be bringing a bunch of DVD's to the SHOT show, so hopefully someone can pick one up for you there. I'm not sure why they can't send the videos out of the country yet - but they've run into some legal red tape over it somehow, I think (post 9-11 gun paranoia at the border, maybe?).


Butch,

It actually does work exactly like I show in the drawing, although I greatly exaggerated what was going on in the drawings so people with all levels of expertise could hopefully understand what I was trying to show them - I know I'm not much of an artist, but I tried to make the drawings as simple as I could. What I maybe should have done was shown the reamer/chamber in the barrel instead of outside it like it would be before starting the chamber- maybe that would have made more sense to you.

The reamer is not really crooked like my exaggerated drawing makes it look like- everything (chamber, threads, receiver) is just being aligned to the centerline of the bore at that end, and the bore right ahead of the finished chamber will be lined up perfectly to the chamber also, which is the most important part.

If you have a bore with some curvature to it, which all barrels do, and you indicate it to run true at both ends of the bore - at the throat and the crown - the bore will be curved in between those two points. So if you indicate it at the throat, drill and bore, then chamber to that dialed in throat, the bore coming to that throat will be curved and on a different plane than the chamber.

Next time you chamber a barrel that way, when you are done, test this by running a long reach indicator in and measure at the rear of the chamber, the front of the chamber and the throat. If you've done your part all those parts should have zero runout and be running true.

But don't stop there, now keep moving the indicator forward past the throat up the bore a ways ahead of the chamber. Depending on how much curvature that particular barrel has, you will IMMEDIATELY start to see some bore runout. Sometimes this shows up quite well in as little as 1/4" to 1/2" into the bore ahead of the throat. Long bullets aren't even clear out of the case yet and they are having to turn ever so slightly to get lined up to the bore when they are starting into it.

You can clearly see on the DVD when I am done with the chamber I do exactly that test. Not only is the whole chamber, front and rear, running perfectly straight and true, the bore ahead of the chamber a ways is also running perfectly straight and true with absolutely no runout. I have never been able to achieve that until I started to dial bores in like I do now.

Hope this explains it!

Gordy Gritters
 
gordy said:
But don't stop there, now keep moving the indicator forward past the throat up the bore a ways ahead of the chamber. Depending on how much curvature that particular barrel has, you will IMMEDIATELY start to see some bore runout. Sometimes this shows up quite well in as little as 1/4" to 1/2" into the bore ahead of the throat. Long bullets aren't even clear out of the case yet and they are having to turn ever so slightly to get lined up to the bore when they are starting into it.
Click to expand...

If you are setting up on a curved bore, using any method, the curvature of that bent cylinder will immediately start leaving the straight line drawn through the centerline axis of the chamber. Fact!!
 
Jerry,

That is absolutely right. The whole length of the bore is a continuous curve from one end to the other, some more so than others. But the amount of curvature in 2-3 inches of most bores is almost not detectable if that part of the bore is running true to the centerline of the lathe, and it is much more easily detectable when dialing in both ends of the bore.

When you set up with the bore running true at both ends, the curvature ahead of the chamber/throat is immediately apparent when going forward from the throat with a good indicator. But if you align the chamber to the first few inches of the bore like I show in the DVD, you have to go several inches ahead of the throat before you can start to detect this curvature.

The next time you chamber a barrel, just try this simple test. After you get both ends dialed in and running true at the throat and at the crown, take your test indicator (or use a range rod to reach further in if your test indicator won't go far enough) and go just 1" ahead of the throat and see just how much runout there is. Unless you have an exceptionally straight bore, the majority of benchrest quality barrels (from any of the major barrel makers) will show a noticeable amount of runout compared to where the throat is.

I noticed this a number of years back already when I used to dial in barrels at the throat and the crown like so many of you still do, and when I saw just how badly doing it this way aligned the throat to the bore ahead of it, it really bothered me. I continued to experiment to try to find a better way to align the chamber to the bore, and right now I've never found a way to do it any better than how I show in the DVD.

Believe me, I am never "married" to any way of doing anything - you cannot improve if you do not have an open mind and a willingness to make changes to improve how you do something! If I can find a better method of doing something in some of my experimentations (which I do constantly) or if someone else has a method of doing something I have not tried yet, I try it, test it thoroughly, and if it works better than the way I do something, I immediately change.

Thanks!
Gordy Gritters
 
gordy said:
The whole length of the bore is a continuous curve from one end to the other, some more so than others. But the amount of curvature in 2-3 inches of most bores is almost not detectable if that part of the bore is running true to the centerline of the lathe, and it is much more easily detectable when dialing in both ends of the bore.
Click to expand...
Wrong Gordy my friend. The wanderings of a gun drill does not make a continuous curve. I call that curve a "compound curve" from my old highway surveying days but I'm not really correct there either. A compound curve is a curve where the radius is continually changing. In the barrel bore situation there is a 3-dimensional wandering.

The barrel just ahead of the chamber may, I say may, be perfectly straight for some distance. Or, it may make an immediate curve to the left, then immediately wander off in another direction.

If your prediction was correct in that you are lining up on a continuous curve, I would feel better about your alignment method. But is is not, in most cases, a continuous curve. I just feel better if the bullet exits the barrel in alignment with the action/stock that is is ejected from.

From here on out it is just a pi$$ing contest. Have fun at the SHOT show.
 
We're leaving for the SHOT Show early Friday morning - it's a 1000mi. drive, and right now, I'm hoping to keep my simple mind on the driving. If I start cogitating on all the points brought out in these six pages of posts, I'm liable to get hurt. Actually, I'm really looking forward to meeting Gordy at the show, buying one of the DVDs, and getting a close-up, hands-on look at Grizzly's lathes.

For the record, there are only 31 cut-off stubs from barrels I've chambered over the past two years since I started doing barrel work, so I'd classify myself as a rookie with a lot to learn. Currently, my set-up method follows Jackie's as closely as I can manage, including drilling & boring to rough the chamber. Finished chamber runout has improved measurably since I started roughing this way; if Gordy's methods can improve the consistency of the quality of my barrel set-ups, I'm all eyes & ears.
 
JerrySharrett said:
From here on out it is just a pi$$ing contest.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what it is! People trying to prove Gordy wrong, or to prove their methods are better, or that they are a better machinist.

Frankly I don't care how he chambers, but I can tell you from first hand experience - I love the rifles that Gordy chambers for me. If the barrel slugs good, it really shoots well. I have won numerous 300 yard matches, come close to setting a National record (by one X) on a 20 shot string and placed well in the Nationals shooting at a thousand yards (and I have only shot 1000 yds twice). His guns have set National records by other shooters. The proof, like another poster said, is in the match results. God forbid......he must be doing something right!
 
Shiraz,
I am not taking to task his method or success. I'm just pointing out that indicating the throat, drill, and bore will have the reamer started coaxially with the centerline of the headstock bearings. The reamer will not start at an angle shown in the video. If you just ran the reamer in without the other operations, I could see a problem.
And yes, if My Clausing gives me trouble, I'll look real seriously at your lathe.
Butch
 
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