Gluing bag to a board?

Al

You may glue your rear bag to whatever if it is being used for 600-1000yd shooting. I don't think it was an issue at Portland as you need to be pointed downhill to be under the concrete beam.
Mike is right on for 100-200yd.
I have seen the rules enforced only at National events, to the point of being disqualified or asked to remove or change the offending item.
 
So Mike,


---IBS is YES I can glue a board onto the bag (up to 1" thick) because H-3 sez "except for the bottom 1" of the bag which may be hard". By "hard" I take that to mean a board, a stack of leather or rubber or a steel plate, the total thickness being at or less than 1 inch. If so, WHY hasn't someone made a heavy bag with a steel baseplate and rubber bumpers?....Heavy, Flat and Stable. Maybe the whole idea is stupid but I want to salvage some good old bags. Davey Dohrmann is sending me some flaps of his new Super Slickery Stuff.....

--- NBRSA page 3 14(c) sez the bag must be "able to be deflected 1/4" at any point". You defined this to mean that for NBRSA you CANNOT use a bag with a 1" thick base.......except for the Edgewood bag because it's made by Jack Snyder??? If I make my own bag with a solid base it's no good? If I make my own bag by gluing a Jack Snyder base to my old protektor it's no good?


I did hear you, and I did understand your clear explanation but I'm just trying to illustrate what seems to me to be an absurdity.




If Humps and Twisted Gators and Seb's and such are allowed why can't little old me build my own gaterhump with a board or a steel plate?? Some of my bags are 15yrs old and nicely worn in on top but as I said the bottoms are soft. I have two of Skip's donuts and one of the black leather donuts and these bad dogs still tend to creep. OR I screw up and bump one and it changes angle in the donut. (.308's, even shortened ones, steenkin' KICK!) Evidently this is an NBRSA VS IBS thing? I mean even Gebhart's new bag is in two pieces, WHY? To accommodate NBRSA shooters?



You might be OK with taking a week off to attend a match only to be DQ'd from the overall but I'd rawther get it resolved here :):)


LOL



Thanx Gary, I think I'm safe for long range comp although if you got a gander at my taped together concoction at the last match I'm sure you wondered! :D NEXT TIME buddy, ;) I ordered a 4X Optical Booster today and milled a big ol' butthole in my green gun........ it's gonna have a regulation buttplate and ever'thang......no hunnerd-mile-an-hour tape in sight.


LOL



al
 
alinwa said:
So Mike,

--- NBRSA page 3 14(c) sez the bag must be "able to be deflected 1/4" at any point". You defined this to mean that for NBRSA you CANNOT use a bag with a 1" thick base.......except for the Edgewood bag because it's made by Jack Snyder??? If I make my own bag with a solid base it's no good? If I make my own bag by gluing a Jack Snyder base to my old protektor it's no good?


I did hear you, and I did understand your clear explanation but I'm just trying to illustrate what seems to me to be an absurdity.

You might be OK with taking a week off to attend a match only to be DQ'd from the overall but I'd rawther get it resolved here

al
Click to expand...

You didn't hear me because I didn't say that. Must be your own agenda. I've never quite understood what the 1/4" deflection point meant. Someone once told me that had to do with the prohibition that it could not be contained, i.e., if you pushed it, it had to be able to move 1/4." That seems as reasonable as any interpretation to me.

FWIW, I've never seen anyone even attempt to enforce the 1/4" rule. I've been to several national matches. The main things tested were being able to raise the gun out of the front rest, the weight and flag height rules.

As for Jack, he obtained the blessing of the BOD of the NBRSA, so he's rule compliant as are his wonderful products. (That's not sarcasm, I happen to think Edgewood products are works of art and own and have owned, use and have used, probably dozens over the years -- people kept talking me out of them and I keep replacing them).

Finally, you won't get anything resolved here. You can stir up S*** (with a lot of people who have never and will never shoot in competition), but nothing will get resolved. If you want to change things, the organizations have a process. The process puts you at risk if you want to use equipment that challenges the rules.
 
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alinwa said:
OK, things are getting clearer.....


I just got off the phone with Dave Dohrmann, got one of the inch-and-a-half spacers for the rear for a 100-200yd setup.... I plan also to use it for long-range stuff...

Now, Thank You Charles for goading me into carefully rereading the IBS rules because the long-range rules state that the reart bag must be filled with dry granular material such as BUT NOT LIMITED TO sand, Zircon, grain etc....... in other words it DOES NOT prohibit lead or Hevi-shot! I did not know this.


So back to 100-200 Group & Score. Can I glue to a board?



al
Click to expand...

Al , I did glue a board to the bottom of my rear bag because of the same trouble you are having. The bag had lost it's stiffness and didn't set right. The board on the bottom was terriable . It would slide all over the place without anything on the bottom of the board. I then glued a piece of leather on the bottom of the board and it still slid all over the place. I think the board made it so stiff that it could not conform to the bench correctly. The bag is now history ,as I could not remove the board without tearing the bag. I don't know if it would have been leagal for bench rest or not. I was shooting at the ground hog matches at the time.
John
 
Al

Back a few years ago, during the "bag wars", (sounds like something out of StarWars), Refs did walk the line at the Nationals in Kansas City, checking for what would be preceived as "not legal".
They were looking for spacers that were attached to the bag, but not part of the bag, (must be separate), any containment, and with the front rest, any pinching that would make lifting the Rifle straight out difficult without disturbing the rest. One very well known shooter borrowed the two 40 pound #9 filled lead shot "socks" that I use on my Raul Gun's base, wrapped them around the feet of his front rest, and it instantly became legal. Heck, Charles Atlas couldn't pick that thing up.n He did it just tomake a point.
Years ago, when I first started shooting Benchrest, I was sharing a bench with a very well known shooter. As courtesy, I reached down to help him with his bags, and his rear bag darned near gave me a hernia. I have no idea what that thing was filled with, but if it was sand, it had to be cut 50-50 with Plutonium.
The truth is, most of this stuff never gets checked, unless it is something that can be easilly detected at a glance. I am sure that there are many shooters who have become very "creative" with what is in the rear bag.
You can't glue the spacer to the bottom of you bag if it is not a "bag". I know it sounds stupid, but as Mike said,this is not the place to get things changed. We can talk about it, but we have a procedure to do that. And, believe it or not, it works.
The Tuner rule is agood example.........jackie
 
Where did anyone get the idea that I've "got an agenda" and "want things changed"???


Jeeepers I feel like I'm in the east coast :( Guess I'll just shut up and crawl back into my hole since this isn't the place ......


yatb35 thanx for the information.


al
 
Al

As you are finding out, there are many IBS and NBRSA rules that scream out for clarification. Mike's comment that they may be "arbitrary" is an understatement to say the least.

I don't think you have an agenda - you have some very valid questions. Unfortunately, when it comes to rules, anyone who asks a question or seeks clarification is immediately branded as a troublemaker or someone who has an agenda.:mad:

Shoot Long Range and forget all the petty bickering that goes on amongst the point-blank crowd. No one that I know who shoots 600 or 1000 yards feels threatened when somebody shows up with a new gimmick, or a new cartridge, or a board glued to the bottom of his bag. Glue it to the seat of your pants for all we care.:p When you kick everyone's butt we will all be using it. At point blank when you kick everyone's butt they call for an investigation.

JMHO

Ray
 
Ray

How right you are.
Long range is the way to try new things. The other disciplines are about rules and you better not come close to breaking one. No way for someone to start out in the shooting sports. Think about the loss of shooters.
 
One can glue ....

There is no provision to outlaw gluing a spacer to the bottom of a bag ....if the bottom does not exceed one inch. At one time the Dunrud rubber spacer was illegal but not any more. It and the Otto spacer were declared legal. With the arrival of the Edgewood bag, the rule was changed to allow a base of 1 inch thickness or less. Therefore, if Mr. Snyder (Edgewood) can build a bag with a 1 inch leather bottom attached, so can anyone attach (glue or sew) a 1 inch rubber, leather or wooden bottom. I have used a Protector bag with a 5/8ths inch rubber bottom glued to the leather for the last two years. It is perfectly legal.

When the "bag wars" were being fought a several years ago, a few folks like Wilbur Harris stated that they have never been beaten because of a rear bag. The powers that be finally realized that this bit of common sense should be followed and relaxed the "bag" rules. James Mock
 
Mike Marcelli, I owe you an apology.

I just reread my post and it makes no sense...... you did NOT make the assertion that I asserted, I dunno where I got the idea'r :eek: I'd been flipping back and forth from PM's to emails to both rule books and I lost track of my brain (this isn't at all uncommon)


I guess I somehow made the jump to "1/4 inch deflection everywhere" being applied to the base.


I over reacted to your "agenda" statement.......Sorry, completely my fault.


BTW, I've never been confused by the "1/4 inch deflection" ruling, I've interpreted it to mean that the bag must be soft enough that you can dent it 1/4" with only finger pressure.................('course that's not exactly definitive considering that I know guys who can bend quarters and squeeze potatoes into french fries)


Thank you for taking the time to help.




al




Now James,


Does the new ruling apply equally to both organizations? Can I be safe with a 3/4" thick plank glued to my bag in NBRSA?


A steel plate? Or is there something stating "leather or wood, or rubber"?


thanx



al
 
From the Minutes of the Midland, Tx, BOD meeting:

In order to help clarify the definition of the sandbag, without an actual equipment rule change, Bukys moved to reword the sandbag definition (page 4 of Official Rule Book and By-Laws, Revised Edition No. 35 under B. Definitions, 14. Rests) to read:
(c) Sandbag.
(1) The Front Sandbag shall be a bag, without additions, containing sand only, and at least ½ inch thick over its entire surface. The bag must be able to be deflected horizontally at least ¼ inch with finger pressure at any point. The portion, which contacts the rifle, shall contact the entire surface under the fore-end.
(2) The Rear Sandbag shall be a bag, or combination of bags containing sand only. The bag must be able to be deflected horizontally at least ¼ inch with finger pressure at any point, except for the bottom 1 inch of the bag, which may be hard. A vertical spacer under the rear bag will be allowed as long as it incorporates no adjustments for windage or elevation. The vertical spacer shall not contain any protrusions, which can be inserted into the bench top or the sandbag. The rear bag shall not be contained in any manner. No metallic materials may be used in the construction of the sandbag. Tape
on sandbag is legal. Griffin seconded and the motion was unanimous. (Dunrud rear ring spacer was also approved to be included in this section. See page 9 of these minutes for final draft.)
The Edgewood front and rear sandbags were presented to the Board of Directors by Dodd and were approved by the Board as being legal sandbags. The Board also requested for the minutes to show that the Lester Bruno sandbags were approved at the September 16, 2000 Board of Directors Meeting held in Warrenton, Missouri."

The rulebook on the NBRSA website has apparently not been updated. (I knew I was at the meeting where the members voted to allow the Dunrud spacer, but forgot which meeting it was). To me, James Mock, this still says that you cannot glue anything on the bottom of the bag (i.e., they never changed the part that says the bag has to be a bag or collection of bags -- which is not what a spacer is -- and they retained the part that says that the spacer may be under the bag, but that language doesn't go so far as to say the spacer can be attached to the bag), but that the bag itself can be constructed in such a way so as to not meet the deflection requirements set forth in the rule (like the Edgewood and double layer Protektor, et. al. bags). Other than that, the Board, and ultimately the membership has ruled on the legality of equipment on a case by case basis. Durud legal. Edgewood legal. Bruno legal. Sorry, but there hasn't been the sweeping rule change you stated in your post, but granted the likelihood of having a set up declared illegal by the BOD or members is pretty remote.

Heres another exerpt from that meeting:

"Creach asked for volunteers to serve on the Rules and Equipment Committee. This committee is to look for conflicting statements in the current NBRSA Rulebook and then to make recommendations for changes to the Board at the 2003 Annual board of Directors Meeting. The following 8 members volunteered to serve in this capacity: Butch Fjoser, Don Geraci, Mike Marcelli, Bob Metric, Don Nielson, Jackie Schmidt, Jerry Stiller, and Dennis Wagner. At the conclusion of this General Membership Meeting, the Directors will select 5 of these volunteers to serve on this committee. The
Board Meeting reconvened at the Midland Shooters Range (Midland, Texas) on Friday, July 26, 2002, at 3:05 PM in the Stat House and the Directors chose Dennis Wagner (Chairman), Don Nielson, Don Geraci, Bob Metric, and Jackie Schmidt to serve on the Rules and Equipment Committee."

Oh yes, I remember it well. Toodles.
 
Mike that was a truly helpful and fairly definitive reply :)


At least now I know that my steel plate idea is OUT.

And I assume Velcro is OUT :D (double-sided velcro tape seems a killer way to keep the bag on the board)


al
 
Now, please all of you take this seriously as I'm building a stack of spacers for my newest Farley rest. The rest is TALL and a stack of 2X6's is SHAKEY.......


Is this stack legal?


I lay an inch-thick steel plate on the bench, this steel plate has rubber plates on three corners (Super Feet) This is only a riser for my bag to sit on. There is a sheet of rubber glued to the top of the steel plate.

I set my bag on top of the plate. There is a board fastened to the bottom of the bag. the board is to make it FLAT on the bottom. There is a thin sheet of rubber glued to the bottom of the board.


That is all. NO containment. and NOTHING tying the two together, just a rubber bottomed bag setting on a rubber topped base. Rubber to rubber to keep it from sliding and of course the steel plate to space it up and to keep it from sliding around on the bench.


OK?


al
 
Al, look at it this way. When you go to a match, there are maybe 3 people who will decide if your bag is legal or not. You can argue, but if they say "no," it is not legal. Of course, if they disqualify you, you can protest up the line, but it will be too late for that match. Winners are fixed at the end of the protest period, and you will have exhausted your "on site" protest.

The safest thing to do in such a situation is to use what everybody else uses.

However, should you choose to go your own way (naw, Al would never do that) & be disqualified, for revenge, you could protest every front bag at the match. Well over half of them can't be deflected 1/4-inch by finger pressure, unless you can find Superman.

"Don't ask -- don't tell" has a parallel with bags in Benchrest.
 
So what is everybody else doing for the new Farley's? According to Dave D. he's selling stacks of spacers.........



And exactly what's with "disqualify you"? This means that if you're called you can't change out to your spare bag and continue? Or take out your nefarious spacer?


I show up at a match with a perty gun and a stack of dunnage and someone walks by checking my equipment and DQ's me? I've got no intent to argue at my stage of the game, I'm ignorant not stupid.


al
 
When they allowed the 1 inch base....

I'll admit that the bag rules are obsolete, but there is nothing in the rules that states that a spacer cannot be glued to the bag. When the rules committe allowed for the 1 inch thick bottoms, it was not stated that the bag had to be commercially made. One can make his own bag with a thick bottom....as did I. I have shot with this bag at both the SS and the NBRSA Nationals and no one has told me that it is illegal....because it isn't.

If we do a strict reading of the rules, the Otto is neither a legal bag or is it a legal spacer. It is not 1/2 inch thick thru-out and it does not have parallel sides such as a spacer. As mentioned before, more than 1/2 of the bags on the line cannot be deflected 1/4 inch at any point.

Actually, ears on our modern bags are not legal because they could be classsified as additions. Our bag rules were formulated when most shooters used sand filled shot bags, and we have modified them as Mike stated on a case by case basis. We now have a hodge-podge system in which the referees can disqualify bags by their "opinion" as to what the rule means.

In 1997, while shooting in my second match, my rear bag was disqualified because I used a Dunrud spacer instead of the "approved" Otto spacer. I was allowed to borrow a bag from Don Gentner and continue. This caused me to study the bag rules. The Dunrud was truly illegal at that time, but my reading of the rules showed what an archaic system was used.

So if anyone is afraid that the glued on base will be ruled illegal, please do not do it. I will continue to use mine. James Mock
 
alinwa said:
. . .And exactly what's with "disqualify you"? This means that if you're called you can't change out to your spare bag and continue? Or take out your nefarious spacer?. . .al
Click to expand...

Al

You are correct. I don't think a referee has the authority to DQ anyone, such as Mike implied. Referees are required to inspect the equipment of competitors (which they seldom do) and pass upon whether such equipment complies with the rules. If found to be non-conforming (in their opinion), the shooter shall be given the right to correct it, or to file a protest and shoot under protest.

Only the Range Officer can remove you from the line. I have been a referee on many occasions, including Varmint Nationals, and I would never be so presumptuous to think I had the authority to DQ a competitor or to prohibit him from shooting.

BTW, contrary to what Charles said, if you protest and appeal the decision, and you win the appeal, your targets are counted.

JMHO

Ray
 
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Ray

Is that the same as being caught with a over weight Rifle.
That is why I am a proponent of weighing Rifles BEFORE the aggregate begins. That way, a shooter has a chance to correct things, if possible.
Technically, if they weigh after a match has been fired, it is DQ time.
I am not sure if having an illegal bag set-up is a greater sin than having a over weight Rifle. But since I started shooting in 1995, (that's a lot of matches), I am yet to see anyone DQed over a bag set-up. But I have seen several get DQed over a Rifle that didn't make weight......jackie
 
Jackie

I believe it is at the discretion of the referees as to when they weigh the rifles. If a rifle is found to be overweight after the match has begun it is grounds for DQ by the Range Officer. As you said, that's why it's best to weigh before the first match is fired.

The rules also say that a host club is supposed to have a set of weights available otherwise the match is considered unregistered and any records fired would not qualify. But how many times has that rule been enforced.

And once a rifle has been weighed and a competitors equipment inspected and approved, you cannot substitute anything without approval of the chief referee. Another rule never enforced.

I've referee'd matches at Raton where we weighed rifles and inspected equipment at the end of the tournament but only for the agg and grand agg winners. I'm not sure that is a good rule but it is in the book.

Ray
 
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Ray:

I don't see the distinction you are trying to make with respect to the bag vs. weight. If you fire one record shot in any match with a piece of illegal equipment, you could be DQ'ed for that agg.

Sure, I've been referee at Phoenix before where we checked, among other things, the front rest tension. (I damn near dropped some poor fellows gun so I'll never do that again.) If the rest was tight, if flags were too high, yada yada, the competitor had a chance to cure the problem. But, if they had already shot a match, they could have been DQ'ed.

The fact is, I've never seen anyone DQ'ed for an equipment violation. Not even an overweight rifle. I don't think most people care about equipment. It might be neat to bring my metal detector to the next match and see how many bags are filled with "sand."

Mike

PS: Doris was watching like a hawk for someone to put a round or bolt in the gun before the command at the Cactus. So, a word to the wise, don't even think about it at the Nationals cause you will be caught.
 
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