Entering the upper load zone - final questions

[Pete Wass]

I'm still sick of hearing it

C'MON O'Buck...... step back from the keyboard and relax a minnit. you're starting to sound about as logical as O'bammer with your "definition of insanity" plea....... (I'll NEVER hear that definition again without getting that gut-punched feeling )

Just because 133 is the best and most consistent powder available doesn't make it automatic! At the level a GROUP shooter must perform nothing is.......

This doesn't take anything away from 133.

Nor from the PPC.

al

When one thinks about Jackies premise that 75% of all the rifles on the line at any given time are out of tune, well, you figure out how good 133 must be! Lemings is perhaps an understatement.

 

[goodgrouper]

You would realize that I have been contributing here for a dozen years or more. You would also know that I am not a leming. I have often ventured off in other directions than others and often with success.

Perhaps the reason there hasn't been much wood won with any of the powder metioned is most of the people who shoot benchrest are lemings. I have had great success with RL-7 for instance when others simply can't bare to use anything that isn't listed in the Equipment List.

If N-133 is the most forgiving powder that was ever made for the 6 PPC, why is it that there is all this discussion about it not working and guns going out of tune all the time here. It that all a centrifuge to put Newbies Off ? I , frankly, get sick of reading it. It would seem to me that the lemmings would be more inclined to find solutions than whine or continue to practice the definition of insanity. It's frustrating !

Frankly Pete, I couldn't care if you have been contributing here since the first day the internet was hooked up worldwide. Bad advice is bad advice no matter how long you been shoveling it! I'm not saying all your posts are bad. I'm simply saying this is one time where you got caught giving advice about something in which you know nothing about and your post count doesn't cancel out that fact.

Now I know there is certainly some lemming (I usually call it sheep) syndrome in benchrest. But your fooling yourself if you think it stops at group shooting and doesn't carry over into every shooting discipline including score. Human nature is to follow the leader and use what he's using until a more significant knowledge base can be aquired.

But, has it ever occured to you that those that whine about N133 might just be those guys who are just following the leader and haven't got it figured out yet? Nobody's born knowing how to tune a rifle.

I've heard guys whine about 8208 and T32 being finicky too. It all boils down to simple odds. The odds are, more people use N133, from novice to expert, so your bound to hear more about it--good and bad.

I congratulate you on your non-lemming attitude. We need all types in this sport. I'm a bit of a rebel myself when it comes to the "norm". But, there comes a time when you can take it too far and you end up chasing your tail.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you can't tune a 6ppc with N133, and you can't ask for help, this might not be your game. Of all the cartridges in the world, the ppc is certainly one of the easiest and possibly the easiest cartridge to tune. If you struggle with it, remember, THERE ARE PLENTY OF FRIENDLY GUYS YOU CAN ASK FOR GUIDANCE who have figured it out and they are usually very eager to help you.

 

[goodgrouper]

When one thinks about Jackies premise that 75% of all the rifles on the line at any given time are out of tune, well, you figure out how good 133 must be! Lemings is perhaps an understatement.

So, is this the powder's fault, or the shooters fault that their gun is out of tune? Do cars kill people or is it the drivers of the cars? You see how off base this blame is?

If Jackie believes 75% of rifles on the line are out of tune at any one time, then is that number going to change with another powder? Could you give out 8 pounds of Rl7 to everyone and ask them to get their gun in tune by match day and expect the percentage to change? Let's be realistic. Those guns don't load themselves. Somebody is dumping X amount of whatever powder in there and it may or may not be what the gun wants on match day. It's still going to boil down to the ability of the shooter to know what to do in every situation.

ANd let's not forget about what Speedy Gonzales said in Mike Rattigan's book about him testing the rifle rests and sand bags of a bunch of different rifles on the line at a major event. I believe (if memory serves) he said the majority of rifles were not set up for repeatable accuracy! SO HOW MANY OF THOSE RIFLES GOT BLAMED FOR THE BLEEPIN' BLEEPITY BLEEP BLEEP POWDER BEING FINICKY when in fact, a laser gun wouldn't have shot any better when it's shot off a bad rest or bags? Get my drift?

 

[Donald]

Goodgrouper, why don't you use your real name so we can see how many "toothpicks" you have won? You are coming on a bit strong.

Donald Perdue

 

[goodgrouper]

Goodgrouper, why don't you use your real name so we can see how many "toothpicks" you have won? You are coming on a bit strong.

Donald Perdue

Donald,

if you really want to know my real name, you can wait for the NBRSA newsletter to come in the mail and compare the names listed in the match reports to the address of my email which is listed in my profile and you'll see. If you don't get the NBRSA newsletter, then I have no business with you and I'd prefer to go by my moniker on a publicly monitored site. Fair enough?

And Pete is a big boy. He can handle himself just fine. We're just having a conversation. There's no malice involved at all.

 

[Donald]

Goodgrouper,
I agree with you on the 133, but I looked thru a bunch of NBRSA newletters and didn't find your name. I have no problem with a moniker. I use one myself on some sites when I just want to jerk some idiots leg. Kind of fun, especially if they are liberals.

 

[Pete Wass]

Goodgrouper is quite right

I am a pretty big boy, all 240 lbs of me and I don't mind being talked down to. I only know that I get damn tired of the N-133 moaning here. I am the kind of person who always wants to fix things that don't work. If that means going against the grain I go there. I use to whine about some stuff but gave up on it.

I have done enough dumb stuff at matches to know O'Brien is always lurking, O'Brien thought Murphy was an optamist ya know .

I don't, for the life of me, see what is wrong with suggesting that folks might try something different though. For instance, I have read reports here in which a reputable researcher uses H-4198 in his PPC type case and says it works great for him. If H-4198 works, RL-7 probably will as well. I know N-130 works cause I have seen it work but that's just me.

 

[glp]

Who'e ever...

I am a pretty big boy, all 240 lbs of me and I don't mind being talked down to. I only know that I get damn tired of the N-133 moaning here. I am the kind of person who always wants to fix things that don't work. If that means going against the grain I go there. I use to whine about some stuff but gave up on it.

I have done enough dumb stuff at matches to know O'Brien is always lurking, O'Brien thought Murphy was an optamist ya know .

I don't, for the life of me, see what is wrong with suggesting that folks might try something different though. For instance, I have read reports here in which a reputable researcher uses H-4198 in his PPC type case and says it works great for him. If H-4198 works, RL-7 probably will as well. I know N-130 works cause I have seen it work but that's just me.

thought H4198 would be a good powder for the 30x47? But it is according to Dick. Ruth shot her first full match at Mainville a few years ago using my HV PPC and a good load of N130. It shot superbly. The issue is whether it shot better than N133...probably not. But it does show there are alternatives, and until one takes the side road, one never knows how pretty the view might be...or not. I've shot a PPC enough to know it does come and go and needs to be chased sometimes. I think we get the better deal up here in the cool Northeast vs. the Southern crowd. Then again, the wind never stops blowing here and the season is only 5 months at best. Hell, we were shooting in winter coats just a few weeks ago and the after match Scotch at the Whale's Tooth sure tasted good and provided some internal warmth!

 

[Randy J.]

You might also want to try Benchmark. My understanding it was formulated to compete with N133. Oh and by the way, I shot a 22 and 6PPC for over 5 years using IMR 4198, N130, N133, and lastly Benchmark. I didn't do it in group competition though, so I don't know if my offering can be taken as highly regarded as some others here. I have been known to luck out on a tune now and again also. Randy J.

 

[goodgrouper]

Goodgrouper,
I agree with you on the 133, but I looked thru a bunch of NBRSA newletters and didn't find your name. I have no problem with a moniker. I use one myself on some sites when I just want to jerk some idiots leg. Kind of fun, especially if they are liberals.

Donald,

You must not have looked very hard. I was in three or four last year with 2gun and 4 gun wins. The most recent one (since I never saw a Cactus report in there yet for 2009, finished 36th 2 gun there) was probably the December 2008 issue. Lands End 4th place two gun and a new range record. It's the same issue as the Nationals. If you look, it's there I promise you.

And every win I took, (hold onto your hat) was with N133. I even won a 2 gun last summer with a lot of N133 that lots of people said was "no good". Hmmmm.

This will really get you, last month, I won a 2 gun with N133 in a 25 degree temp swing, and I was using brass that has been fired probably 100 times each and is two years old, and I was using regular 205 primers to boot! Double hmmm.

p.s. I'm not tooting my own horn. You asked and also tried to make me look like a liar so I told you the facts.

 

[goodgrouper]

I don't, for the life of me, see what is wrong with suggesting that folks might try something different though. )

Pete,

Let's be fair man. You didn't just suggest the use of another powder. That would have been ok. What you did do was try to steer someone away from N133 because you have "heard" that it's finicky (from some people who might be stuffing the bullet in backwards for all we know) because you have no experience in competition with it for yourself.

 

[goodgrouper]

You might also want to try Benchmark. My understanding it was formulated to compete with N133. Oh and by the way, I shot a 22 and 6PPC for over 5 years using IMR 4198, N130, N133, and lastly Benchmark. I didn't do it in group competition though, so I don't know if my offering can be taken as highly regarded as some others here. I have been known to luck out on a tune now and again also. Randy J.

Benchmark was formulated to compete with N133 in the benchrest market but they made several burn rate adjustments to it when it was first introduced and it is generally thought of as a tad on the slow side now. But it depends what lot you get. Larry Sharnhorst has got a good lot of it that he's kicking butt with right now. It's faster than the lot I have worked with. I had the case as full as I could get it without having the powder start impeding the bullet seat and I was only cracking 3250 fps with it. It was somewhere around a 31 grain charge and I was trickling the kernels in there one at a time to make room!

 

[upandcoming]

Since we are moving into the discussion about different powders, does anyone know about any testing of VV-N530 for the 6ppc? Is there a possibility that it might work?

 

[goodgrouper]

Since we are moving into the discussion about different powders, does anyone know about any testing of VV-N530 for the 6ppc? Is there a possibility that it might work?

I've never tried any n530. I have tried several other 5 series powders and have found that their burn rates get squirrely in different calibers. In other words, burn rate charts for them are "iffy". For instance, n530 might be quicker than n130 in a .22 caliber but reverse and become slower in a 6mm. Other powders can and do this too but not to the severity I've seen with 5 series.

Another thing I didn't really like about the 5 series powders was I saw a reduction in barrel life when they were used in two different barrels. Now it could have been a bad batch of steel, but it would seem against the odds to get two barrels that were bad that far apart in manufacture.

There was talk here awhile back about RL10x shooting bughole after bughole in a 6ppc but several guys noticed it was really dirty and barrel life was less than N133 or H322. I haven't shot enough of it in a ppc to get any conclusion but it did shoot pretty well one day for me. It's been my best powder in my .223 with 40 grain Vmax launching them at over 4000 fps safely and accurately. In that gun, it's been very clean burning and I've shot around 5000 rounds thru that barrel and haven't lost any accuracy yet or even had it get tougher to clean. But a 6ppc isn't a .223.

Since 8208 and T32 are in limited supply, if I had to use another powder other than N133, I would probably shoot H322. But I have seen it do really weird things in 90+ degree weather. If I lived in an area of the country where it never got above 65 degrees, I'd shoot H322 with confidence.

 

[Pete Wass]

So, what are you saying here

Pete,

Let's be fair man. You didn't just suggest the use of another powder. That would have been ok. What you did do was try to steer someone away from N133 because you have "heard" that it's finicky (from some people who might be stuffing the bullet in backwards for all we know) because you have no experience in competition with it for yourself.

All the discussion here about N-133 being finicky should be ignored ? Is it a centrifuge designed to throw the competition off somehow? I have N-133 and have used it in matches. It didn't work to my liking so I opted for something else. N-133 also works in other chamberings as you may be aware.

I just don't understand why you are so reticent to change. You keep trying to point out that I have no experience. Why don't you check around on the IBS site a bit? At least you can find me because I use my real name here and there, unlike you. Where would one find your credentials?

 

[goodgrouper]

All the discussion here about N-133 being finicky should be ignored ? Is it a centrifuge designed to throw the competition off somehow? I have N-133 and have used it in matches. It didn't work to my liking so I opted for something else. N-133 also works in other chamberings as you may be aware.

I just don't understand why you are so reticent to change. You keep trying to point out that I have no experience. Why don't you check around on the IBS site a bit? At least you can find me because I use my real name here and there, unlike you. Where would one find your credentials?

Pete,

You're trying to twist things around and dilute your error with rhetoric. I'm getting tired of people who can't admit when they've done wrong. It would be refreshing to just have someone step up and say, "I screwed up and I admit I'm wrong". I guess it ain't going to happen in Maine today. What a bummer.

You want to take the same route as Donald from a few posts ago, fine.
I will tell you the same thing I told him. I'm not going to skimp on security just so everyone can know my name. I've never been that interested in popularity contests.

 

[Donald]

Donald,

You must not have looked very hard. I was in three or four last year with 2gun and 4 gun wins. The most recent one (since I never saw a Cactus report in there yet for 2009, finished 36th 2 gun there) was probably the December 2008 issue. Lands End 4th place two gun and a new range record. It's the same issue as the Nationals. If you look, it's there I promise you.

And every win I took, (hold onto your hat) was with N133. I even won a 2 gun last summer with a lot of N133 that lots of people said was "no good". Hmmmm.

This will really get you, last month, I won a 2 gun with N133 in a 25 degree temp swing, and I was using brass that has been fired probably 100 times each and is two years old, and I was using regular 205 primers to boot! Double hmmm.

p.s. I'm not tooting my own horn. You asked and also tried to make me look like a liar so I told you the facts.

Well I guess I just have to respond one more time. First of all I didn't try to make you look like a liar. I just said I couldn't find your name. Your initial is listed in your profile as K. I did find a J. Could that be you? If so, congratulations on good shooting. I too, like Pete have tried a lot of powders other than 133. Most of all because 133 is hard for me to get. I don't buy 40-60 lbs of powder at a time. But...I have not found any powder to agg with 133. As for BMark, I am getting 3300+/- with 30.0 grains. It takes about 28.8 of 133 to get the same velocity in my guns. I have also found an accurate load of 133 down around 27.0 at a bit less than 3100. But I too like a tad more velocity. Not sure why, guess it comes from my varmint shooing days. Kind of funny how the 30ppc and 30BR seem to like about 2970 fps. I wonder if our 6mm bullets get blown around more at a more sedate speed. Probably be easier on brass and barrels. And yes I do shoot group and a bit of score. However you probably won't find my name listed in any shooting reports because I am a midpack at best shooter and only shoot at two different ranges. Just don't like driving that much. You and Pete have a good day now.

Donald

 

[upandcoming]

I've never tried any n530. I have tried several other 5 series powders and have found that their burn rates get squirrely in different calibers. In other words, burn rate charts for them are "iffy". For instance, n530 might be quicker than n130 in a .22 caliber but reverse and become slower in a 6mm. Other powders can and do this too but not to the severity I've seen with 5 series.

Another thing I didn't really like about the 5 series powders was I saw a reduction in barrel life when they were used in two different barrels. Now it could have been a bad batch of steel, but it would seem against the odds to get two barrels that were bad that far apart in manufacture.

First of all, I agree with the observation about the barrel life. I have not tried with the 6ppc, however, but for other caliber I have tried the 5 series my observation is the same. I have long experience with different 6.5 mm calibers and the us of N150 and N160 and changing to N550 and N560 with two separate barrels did reduced the life of those two barrels at least. If it is the way the power burns, or the increased speed I am not sure...

I find it interesting that you find the 5 series differ their burn rate depending on the caliber you are looking at. Have not look too hard into several calibers using the same 5xx powder, however my initial experience with the 5-series is that it is more forgiving with changes in the weather - based on the caliber I have testet which is mainly different 6.5 mm calibers. If that had been experienced also with the 6ppc combined with the fact that I live way up north it could very well be interesting to look into. However, I assume that somebody have had this idea before and since there are little info about this out there the accuracy might not have been worth writing about.... ??

 

[jackie schmidt]

I Tried It

Back about 5 years ago, we tried some N530 in our 6PPC's, it is way too slow.

The number "530" is sort of missleading. We thought it was the high energy equivelent od N-130, but in reality, it is the high energy equivelent of N-135, maybe even a tad slower.........jackie

 

[glp]

Pete...

All the discussion here about N-133 being finicky should be ignored ? Is it a centrifuge designed to throw the competition off somehow? I have N-133 and have used it in matches. It didn't work to my liking so I opted for something else. N-133 also works in other chamberings as you may be aware.

I just don't understand why you are so reticent to change. You keep trying to point out that I have no experience. Why don't you check around on the IBS site a bit? At least you can find me because I use my real name here and there, unlike you. Where would one find your credentials?

remember Dan?