We know that''s mutual my general contractor friend
BTW that "quote" is supposed to be an hy'postrophe
Does brass become brittle with age just sitting in a box?
- Thread starter Bill Wynne
- Start date
BTW that "quote" is supposed to be an hy'postrophe
Bill Wynne
Active member
I was like you, Wilbur, until this episode. My friend didn't believe this at first either. We carefully examined all the reloaded cases and the cases that were fired with a good light and a magnifying glass and found some more splits in the necks and splits just starting and places that were fixing to split. Long story made short. Out of the 73 that I had loaded there remained 45 that looked to be in perfect order. My friend said that he did not think he had fired over 100 rounds in the rifle. He had made his brass with a load of pistol powder with a filler and a wax plug.
Like the guy told me, it may have just been the heating and cooling cycles over 40 years in his garage. Forty years has 14,600 day and night cycles. It just could be.
I dunno Pete..... I'm still working this all out in my haid...
I really jumped up ears open over that hot/cold thing from Bill. I've always wondered why "some is like brandy new, and some is cracking" and he gave me a logical (to me) explanation for it....... storage, specifically temperature swings. I've seen it enough on even pretty normal-looking cases to feel the effect is REAL, but it's not an all-the-time thing.
IME if brass is stored indoors, in a temperature controlled environment time perhaps has no appreciable effect on it. I've got cases/loads fired and unfired from 30-40 even 60yrs ago bought and stored by myself or my family that are still fine, look like they were just purchased and fire normally. I have no problem pulling stuff out that I loaded for varminating back in the early 80's (weirdly enough, even THIS is "35-yr-old ammo") and using it. It doesn't crack.
Also, I've two sons who're engineers both working in metals, properties of. One ran a lab for SAPA Aluminum for a few yrs (friction stir welding/extrusion/crumple and fatigue-resistant designs) and the other works for the Lifeport division of Sikorsky/Lockheed Martin designing/refining medical equipment for helicopters....... racks/gantries/carriers/supports/hangers/holders/gurneys etc. Neither of them "works with brass/copper alloys" but they are interested in metallic things. Last night we were over for Family Dinner Nite and I threw the thought Bill brought out re freeze/thaw cycle into the room and they both thought it through and agreed that "yup, that ought'a do it"
Bill Wynne
Active member
Pete, I think that that is exactly the reason to anneal. The first thing the man from Sierra suggested was to anneal.
Someone who has the time should store some never fired brass in their garage for 40 years and let us know what happens. At age 79, I don't think I have that kind of time.
Concho Bill
John Kielly
Shari's fan club
Quitter!
Bill Wynne
Active member
Now that hurt! Thanks anyway, friend.Quitter!
garywfisher
New member
Hatcher's Notebook
Guys, Read up in Hatcher's Notebook about why the military started requiring ammo suppliers to not polish off the results of the last anneal on the necks of cases.
Guys, Read up in Hatcher's Notebook about why the military started requiring ammo suppliers to not polish off the results of the last anneal on the necks of cases.
powderbrake
Member
I have no experience with brittle old brass, but can relate a case of brass cracking.
Our company was making brass air compressor relief valves ( allowed head pressure to bleed off when compressor stopped), and in some cases the brass shuttle was breaking. It turned out to be because of ammonia. Ammonia will cause intergranular cracking in brass alloys. There was no ammonia in use at those plants, but they were laundries which were processing cloth diapers. Diapers have urine, therefore ammonia.
So maybe some of this old cracking brass was stored near a diaper bucket, or near ammonia. Windex is high in ammonia. Some metal polishes are as well. I use ones that state NO Ammonia in my brass vibratory cleaner.
Our company was making brass air compressor relief valves ( allowed head pressure to bleed off when compressor stopped), and in some cases the brass shuttle was breaking. It turned out to be because of ammonia. Ammonia will cause intergranular cracking in brass alloys. There was no ammonia in use at those plants, but they were laundries which were processing cloth diapers. Diapers have urine, therefore ammonia.
So maybe some of this old cracking brass was stored near a diaper bucket, or near ammonia. Windex is high in ammonia. Some metal polishes are as well. I use ones that state NO Ammonia in my brass vibratory cleaner.
jackie schmidt
New member
Out of curiosity, I measured the web on one of my 6PPC cases at about 85 degrees. Exactly .4395. I then put it in the freezer at about 26 degrees for about 4 hours. It then measured .4392. That's .0003 inch.
Not much.
Not much.
Bill Wynne
Active member
All I know is something happened
.0003 inch is not much. However, given that much in each cycle for 40 years,that would be quite a bit. Your example gives a swing of 59º F. I know that is more than an average daily swing but if it were just consider.
If 40 years of 365 days and 59º F swing result in a .0003 inch expansion or contraction.
40 x 365= 14,600.
Therefore 14,600 cycles x .0003 inches of movement = a total of 4.38 inches.
That's a lot! That amount of movement just might cause work hardening. Even 1/2 that might cause the same thing.
.0003 inch is not much. However, given that much in each cycle for 40 years,that would be quite a bit. Your example gives a swing of 59º F. I know that is more than an average daily swing but if it were just consider.
If 40 years of 365 days and 59º F swing result in a .0003 inch expansion or contraction.
40 x 365= 14,600.
Therefore 14,600 cycles x .0003 inches of movement = a total of 4.38 inches.
That's a lot! That amount of movement just might cause work hardening. Even 1/2 that might cause the same thing.
Great Info here
It has been great reading this discussion on brass. It has been discussed by folks with a little understanding and common sense. In other places, it has turned into an all out cuss fight between those that think they know everything and those that know what they have seen in the real world.
Thanks again
It has been great reading this discussion on brass. It has been discussed by folks with a little understanding and common sense. In other places, it has turned into an all out cuss fight between those that think they know everything and those that know what they have seen in the real world.
Thanks again
Bill Wynne
Active member
We are all gentlemen here, or try to be. We see an uncommon problem and try to find the truth. That is what makes this forum interesting. Sometimes a little humor happens.
heavy on "little understanding and common sense"........ but we mean well, and we're curious as kittens......
Bill, blowing the shoulder forward initially is where the excessive work hardening started.
Subsequent resizing and time did the rest.
Good shootin'. -Al
Bill Wynne
Active member
I agree, Al. Back in those days, shooters like me knew nothing about annealing. However, these cases held up after fire forming for many reloads. We just hunted and killed deer. Someone should have told us.