Dave Short
New member
good question dave,how many people actually shoot two guns in the same class?
Geez, I don't know.........Maybe a half-dozen or so.
Does it matter?
-Dave-
good question dave,how many people actually shoot two guns in the same class?
Ron Collins and others bring up a valid point in meeting the minimum shooter count for Precision Rifleman and SSOY points.
I know you only get to a few matches a year but I can only think of 2 shooters who shoot 2 HV guns in our area.
My comment about shooting better was a general statement to all that feel disadvantaged by the couple of 2 gun shooters. Sorry if that is a sore subject with you.
I am just a one gun person and don't forsee getting another real soon. I don't think there are many shooters shooting two guns of the same class. We certainly have many shooting LV and HV which the rule would still allow. I don't like losing out on SSOY points or placements because someone has shot two guns, period. It is bad enough losing to them once say nothing about twice! I do believe that shooting two guns is an advantage, whether you learn from a mistake or that one of the relays is better than the other. This is true whether the gun is one of the same class or LV and HV. I don't see a whole lotta difference seeing that we are shooting for a single prize. There is no win for LV and a seperate one for HV--its the same prize. If you are going to let LV and HV go for the same prize then I am all for letting guns of the same class go for it.
The real fix to this is to create two classes with separate awards. If you did this then no one would be complaining as each class would get awards. You could have SSOY points be done like the 6 power class--points going to the best scores regardless of class.
Another way to fix it is allow only one gun of the same class to be considered--without having to declare--the better score would get the awards. If you finished 1st and 3rd with the same class gun, you would only get the 1st place award and 4th place would move up to 3rd for all other purposes.
If we allow a person to shoot two guns of the same class why don't we allow the person with only one gun to enter it multiple times? Food for thought! Randy J.
After a clarification/apology you continue to attack on a personal level I have to wonder about your motives. Save the attacks for your friends- This thread is about the pros and cons of shooting two guns not personal attacks on character.
As the rules are written now, either gun is eligible for for SSOY points. Whichever one finishes higher gets the points. This amendment would make it so only one gun would be eligible for points, or placing. So if your non "record" gun went out and won the match...it would get nothing.
Someone else asked about using 2 LV rifles, but designating one of them a HV, so they would each be recognized individually. How about this scenario...you shoot potential 10.5lb world record score with the rifle you have designated a HV. Guess what, no record for you. There's far more to all this than meets the eye, and it will be hashed out at the meeting I'm sure.
Jackie, you also mentioned that you would be voting on the agenda item. I assume that means you plan on attending the winter meeting in Harrisburg?
what I don't see in the proposal is this...If you shoot a LV and a HV gun in Varmint for Score class does one of those(that have been referred to here as different class guns) still have to be declared as a record gun? After all there is really no LV "class". The "class" is Varmint for Score and a light gun and a heavy gun are shot against each other in 1 "class". The rule as proposed doesn't seem to address this or am I missing something. Just for the record I have, on occasion, shot 2 guns in one class(maybe 3 times) and after a lot of thought about the issue, support changing the rules to allow only 1 gun to be shot for record(regardless of the gun weight), either for the match win or SSOY points, in the VfS Class. --Greg
I did not write that correctly. What I meant was "if I could attend, I would vote for the ammendment".
Heck, we don't even have IBS Matches in our part of the Country, so I perhaps I shouldn't even be part of the discussion. BUT, since I am an IBS Member, I am at least entiltled to an opinion.
So I will say it like this. Allowing a shooter to shoot two Rifles in the same class goes against the basic tenant of score shooting, that being, EVERY SHOT COUNTS. How many times have we heard the statement that in group shooting, the first shot is always free, and that is where much of the real difficulty lies in Score, esspecially at the level that the discipline has evolved in too.
Someone else mentioned that allowing a shooter two shoot two Rifles in the same class was the same as getting a mulligan in Golf. If you do screw up on a target, you have a second chance. I can't believe that there are those who do not see something inherantly wrong with this.
All of this discussion about the difficulty in shooting two entirely separate Rifles is simply a smoke screen. So is the part about garnering info. The way it is done now is about one thing, and one thing only. Garnerring SOY points. But, when you allow things to happen that gives a shooter an advantage in the very aspects that make the Discipline difficult, then it cheapens the accomplishment. If it was about anything else, there would be no objections to this proposed amendment.
Here is another question. Since the second Rifle is an entire new entry, does the shooter always manage to draw a bench and one relay for the first Rifle, and the same bench but another relay for the second?? Of course, I am assuming that they are drawing for benches and relays the way we do it in our Region.
How about some hard data. Does anybody have the records from this past year that would reflect on how shooters actually did benefit from being allowed a second chance with another Rifle??........jackie
As Dave pointed out, the intent is to keep shooters from shooting 2 HV rifles in the same agg. Same would go for 2 LV's, 2 VH's or Hunter rifles. It would still allow the use of 2 rifles in the same class, just require the shooter to declare one as the "reocrd" gun. If you look at the E-Board's recommendation, they feel that it needs to be re-worded to disallow the practice of shooting 2 guns in the same class altogether. I'm with you in the concern about HVS and LVS being the same class, the only distinction being Records. I think this will require some clarification. I really don't know why we don't simply separate HVS and LVS, making them two distinctly seperate classes. Then write into the rules that Precision Rifleman and SSOY will be combined under both classes, just like has already been done in the 6X game.
Does this mean in 6 power, only one gun can be shot??? In other words, a 6 power shooter could not shoot a VH and a Hunter for record. Whats good for the goose......
I agree the rule as proposed and as the E Board suggests amending needs to be clarified because we have one class, Varmint for Score, and two rifle weights, HV and LV, both shot in one class. If someone want to shoot 2 guns, whatever the combination of rifle weights is, then I think the rule should be very clear the only 1 is for record. If the rule can be interpreted as allowing a LV and a HV to be shot in the VfS class without declaring which one is for record, then it doesn't resolve the issue of someone shooting 2 guns with 2 chances to win or place. In the end it will be what the majority wants.
Regarding establishing two separate VfS class, a LV and HV Class, I think one of the issues was the dilution of the number of competitors for Precision Rifle Points that it would bring with it. I suppose that could be taken care of by combining the two for PRP's and SSOY points. Up our way we never have to worry about meeting the 20 shooter level. In my almost 10 years of shooting IBS score that has happened only once or twice. Still, we have fun!! --Greg
Yep, the lack of support for not establishing two separate classes has been in regards to Precision Rifleman points. But we already have precedent for that. The PR and SOY points acquired by 6 power shooters are of the combined variety. At most of the score shoots, except the big matches, there are not enough Hunter or Varmint Hunter shooters to satisfy minimum requirements for PR points. That same thing would happen to VFS if we separated the two classes...unless the classes were combined for PR and SSOY points. I don't honestly see the downside, but I'm sure some will disagree.
one downside of establishing 2 VfS classes is the dilution, al la the 6 power game, that one gets. Sure the points issue is resolved in 6X, but it seems a shame to have, lets say, 4 VH shooters and 4 Hunter shooters split up in different classes when the 8 could be shooting against each other.
I, for one, would rather go to a big VfS shoot and compete against 40 people rather than 20 if 20 shoot the LV class. The results may not show it but I'd rather test myself that way. Competition and seeing how well you can stack up against it on any given day or weekend is a big draw for me. If 2 VfS classes were ever setup I'd probably switch to Hunter clsss because of the challenge of shooting this rifle well because of equipment stipulations. I know that might sound contrary to my statement above, but when you beat anyone with a 6 power gun that is something to crow about!
In the end if the majority wants a ture LV VfS class then it will happen.
As Dave pointed out, the intent is to keep shooters from shooting 2 HV rifles in the same agg. Same would go for 2 LV's, 2 VH's or Hunter rifles. It would still allow the use of 2 rifles in the same class, just require the shooter to declare one as the "reocrd" gun. If you look at the E-Board's recommendation, they feel that it needs to be re-worded to disallow the practice of shooting 2 guns in the same class altogether. I'm with you in the concern about HVS and LVS being the same class, the only distinction being Records. I think this will require some clarification. I really don't know why we don't simply separate HVS and LVS, making them two distinctly seperate classes. Then write into the rules that Precision Rifleman and SSOY will be combined under both classes, just like has already been done in the 6X game.
I agree 100% and like competing against many, rather than few. As to the 6 power, it's obviously a very difficult game, and winning there must be very rewarding. I think that one of the toughest things to accomplish in Benchrest shooting is acquiring a Bronze level jacket, shooting only a 6X gun. The list of shooters to reach this goal is very short...
I agree the rule as proposed and as the E Board suggests amending needs to be clarified because we have one class, Varmint for Score, and two rifle weights, HV and LV, both shot in one class. If someone want to shoot 2 guns, whatever the combination of rifle weights is, then I think the rule should be very clear the only 1 is for record. If the rule can be interpreted as allowing a LV and a HV to be shot in the VfS class without declaring which one is for record, then it doesn't resolve the issue of someone shooting 2 guns with 2 chances to win or place. In the end it will be what the majority wants.
Regarding establishing two separate VfS class, a LV and HV Class, I think one of the issues was the dilution of the number of competitors for Precision Rifle Points that it would bring with it. I suppose that could be taken care of by combining the two for PRP's and SSOY points. Up our way we never have to worry about meeting the 20 shooter level. In my almost 10 years of shooting IBS score that has happened only once or twice. Still, we have fun!! --Greg
I have always thought that there was something wrong in allowing a shooter to shoot more than one Rifle in the same class. (I guess they are on two separate relays).
I suppose that the reason they do it is to garner more SoY points. Or am I wrong on this.
Expalin........jackie