Bullet Making (originally owned by Stephen Perry)

Al Nyhus said:
With the thought that: "Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by fighting back". (Paul Erdos, I believe?)....bullet making to me is a constant effort of tweaking, finding the weak spots and making that part of the process better.

One of the things about bullet making with steel dies is the fact that they require more lube than carbide. Generally speaking, bullets from a steel die require more ejection effort that from a carbide die. This is one of the reasons that most makers of steel dies like to have a bit of taper on the shank of the point up die..to ease the ejection effort.

When Larry Blackmon made my steel dies, I specified a straight shank. I did this for a number of reasons, chiefly because I feel a straight shank bullet 'tunes up' better than a tapered shank bullet. I'm talking .30's here 'cuz I'm ignorant about anything else. The success of the tapered shank/double ogive 6's are undeniable, but I'm not convinced that crosses over directly to the .30's. Anyhow.....

One of the consequences of Larry making my point die 'straight up' is that there's always a bit of 'fuzz' at the tip of the bullet, due to the ejection effort. I've made my own ejection punches with different profiles on the end to help this, but the reality is that's just a part of the process. It doesn't hurt anything and it's no worse than many other custom bullets I've seen, but it still bugs me. Some lots of jackets are better than others in this regard.

In an effort to reduce the ejection effort, I just had the point die that's used for my B-1 Wide Body ;) bullets salt bath treated by Joel Kendick. With the promise of decreased friction, maybe this will help in the ejection effort. If it does, it does. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But it will be an interesting test to try.

Lube is an important part of the equation. Decreasing the ejection effort seems...on the surface...to be a matter of finding a 'slippery-er' lube. But as weird as it sounds, some of the super slick lubes I've brewed up caused the bullet dimensions to vary greatly. Seems like a bit of 'drag' is needed for consistency. The best lube I've found is the brew from The Clan Robinett out of Madrid, Iowa. :D

Nitrocarburized die on the left, standard die on the right.

d1-1.jpg
Click to expand...

The lathe trimmed jackets make the neatest meplats however most are pinch trimmed for production speed. If the pinch trim dies are new and sharp the meplats are ok but as the dies wear the jacket mouth gets more ragged after pinching , resulting in rougher meplats.
A good moly coating process tends to smooth out meplat feathering to some degree and I notice mine are always better after tumbling.
Did the case hardening change the internal dimentions at all ( bullet produced ) ?
 
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J. Valentine said:
Did the case hardening change the internal dimentions at all ( bullet produced ) ?
Click to expand...

Not that I can measure, at least with standard hand-held tools. I don't have a good setup for spin checking the base relative to the shank for runout, so I can't say about that area for sure. My spin test for that is via a couple of 1:17 and 1:18 barrels. ;)

It will be some weeks before I get a chance to test this die, though. I've got new barrels on two of my BR guns (30BR and 30BRX) so I need to get those broken in, cases fireformed (for the BRX) and a good baseline established using my standard, plain vanilla bullets.

It would be nice to be able to shoot all year long, just for checking stuff like this, if nothing else. There's talk of a 100yd. indoor range being built here in the near future. Wouldn't be a bad place to spend a snowy, blustery Winter evening in South Dakota.....:)

Good shootin'. :) -Al
 
Stephen perry 6x47

Stephen,,

my absolute best shooting rifle is a 6xc which for all intents is the same cartridge as yours just large primer...anyways i've been shooting Randy Robinettes 95 and 98 grain bullets with unreal grouping.. I just ordered some 105's mine is an 8 twist 27 inch hart barrel... give some of his a try they are just awesome.

mine will outshoot any of my ppc bench guns, a pure pleasure to shoot. this is my "hummer" if i've ever had one... I hope yours does as well..

if they all shoot as well as mine the 6br variants would fade in popularity..

Good shooting,,

Kirk
 
core bonded.

When you say 8 caliber or less, to you mean "ogive'?

Thanks for the info on core bonding,, i always wondered what this was as i've used "factory" bullets with this feature...

I doubt i'll ever make any though... I did shoot a deer a few yrs ago with one of my 30 cal bullets that could have used this. I shot a 125 grain bullet on 1 inch jacket with my 300 savage bolt rifle.. the deer was around 35-40 yds out and my bullet didn't do too well, exploded with not near enough penetration. i shot it again to finish it.. then went back to "Rem core-locked bullets" used my bullets on paper ever since.

thanks again..

Kirk
 
Yes , I mean 8 cal ogive.
At 125 grains for a 30 cal on a 1 inch jacket would have a fair hollow in the ogive.
It's light and has poor center of gravity and a weak ogive .
I make a 144 grain 30 in a shorter jacket that the lead comes all the way to within .07 of the meplat edge. Not bonded. It kills small to medium deer and hogs no problems. From the 308 W. and 30-06 S.
I had to shoot a sick cow once and chose this bullet as a test .
Fired from guesstimated 100 yards right between the eyes from 308 W and it fell like a stone. The 144 grain lose core had penertrated the skull perfectly . Although it was a nice square on shot . I was quite pleased that it was a one shot kill with a standard type bullet. A bit of weight makes a big difference. Higher velocity does not always do the trick unless the bullet is designed for the velocity.
You should try core bonding a few bullets it is very easy to do and gives great results on the target.
I tend to only core bond the heavy 30 cal bullets like 180 grain .
The solder process does cost some accuracy but with the big targets at closer ranges you never notice the slight lose.
 
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Br Bullet making

While your talking about bonding cores.
Isn't there a powder glue or adhesive that bonds with friction?
you roll the core in the powder and the friction from seating the core glues the core to the jacket. I read this some where. any one know?
 
I am not familiar with that product. I don't bother to research other ways to do it because the solder process is so cheap and easy.
The only thing extra I have to buy is a cheap bottle of Bakers flux which is basically Zinc Chloride 30 to 60% , everything else is either used to make normal bullets or is just the normal tools in my shop .
One advantage that the solder process has over other cold processes is that the jackets are annealed well and that makes them tougher.
However it also makes for increased fouling but most shooters would not use many off this kind of bullet anyway.
The flux also has Ammonium Chloride 10 % and Hydrochloric Acid 2% , balance water.
So I am not sure what the long term effects are on the jacket hardness.
I can't find out what the PH actually is. I presume its acidic which should not harden a jacket any but will eventually break down the solder bond.
However without free Oxygen it would take a very long time I would think.
If you are not using the bullets within a short period you could also boil them in water containing baking soda after the other cleaning is done.
That would assure no acidity remains on the outside anyway.
If a product is available that lets you do it more easily without the need for heat guns and the price and performance is acceptable then it may be worth looking into.
 
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Question???

#1 What Electronic scale are you guys using in bullet making?

#2 And is the acculab as good as the denver or are they the same?

thanks
 
Br Bullet making

I use a Competitve Edge Dynamics abot $110 0r $120 last time i checked
Its sold by Bruno.
Mine is pretty good. I checked it against many others both electronic and beam. It seem to be very close.
It does use quite a few batterys at times but over all battery life seems to be very good.
 
marlowjoe

I also use the Competitive Edge Dynamics scale. The scale weighs in .1 grn. That's all you need for weighing bullets or powder. I take my CED to the Shoots with me if i want to verify a powder load.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
Kirk

Your 6 XC is a fine cartridge. Not the same as the 6x47 Lapua but close. Randy makes great bullets and those 105's ought to be the ticket. I shoot out 600M with my 6x47. I am going to make some 80 grn bullets and see how they go. Thanks for the Post.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
Washing cores

Guys, How many times do you boil and wash your cores?

Do any of you cut your core's and store them unwashed, so you have
them done? While waiting on the jackets.

What would you use to keep the core's from oxidizing until needed?

On 66 to 68 grain (6mm) which Ogive gives the best accuracy? In the
PPC.


:)
 
Joe, you just need to clean lube off of cores once either by boiling or by washing after they are they have been squirted. yes you can store cut cores for an extended length of time i would lube before storing and use some sort of closed jar. on 66-68 gr. ogives all work fine as long as everything is in the center. george
 
I agree with George . On the subject of ogives if the bullet is well made and the jacket concentric then over the short ranges of BR the ogive length is not that critical. Like I would rather use a well made 6 cal ogive bullet than a poor quality 11 cal ogive.
New swagers should be careful not to select a die that has such a long ogive that the bullet is all ogive and very little shank. This makes seating out to the lands difficult and incourages in bore yaw because the bearing surface ( shank) is just too short. Also the longer the ogive is the harder it is to make an accurate die and the smaller the ejection pin diameter the harder ejection can be. Especially if the die match is a bit too close.
New bullet makers should start with sensible ogives for BR like 8 cal and concentrate on making good bullets first .
If you are having a gun specially chambered for a particular ogive size and bullet form then that is a different matter .
Once you know how to make good bullets then you can branch out to other stuff.
 
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Also the longer the ogive is the harder it is to make an accurate die and the smaller the ejection pin diameter the harder ejection can be. Especially if the die match is a bit too close.
New bullet makers should start with sensible ogives for BR like 8 cal [/QUOTE]
Joe, why would you think this.cavity depth is cavity depth the ogive really has nothing to do with how straight the die is.as for the small ejection pin i generally try to steer new bullet makers away from smaller ejec. pins, they eject fine its other problems that you encounter. george
 
Thanks for the info

Mr. Ulrich and Mr. Valentine, I thank you for the reply's. I would rather ask to get the right answer, than to go on uninformed. I hear a few guys say they use the 7 3/4 Ogive some the 8 Ogive. When I order my dies, I just want to be sure of what I need. I will order the 8 Ogive dies now that I know. You guys have a wealth of experience. And I want to learn. I really appreciate your help..
I thank Stephen Perry for starting this Bullet Making thread. :)

thanks again
 
geo.ulrich said:
Also the longer the ogive is the harder it is to make an accurate die and the smaller the ejection pin diameter the harder ejection can be. Especially if the die match is a bit too close.
New bullet makers should start with sensible ogives for BR like 8 cal
Click to expand...
Joe, why would you think this.cavity depth is cavity depth the ogive really has nothing to do with how straight the die is.as for the small ejection pin i generally try to steer new bullet makers away from smaller ejec. pins, they eject fine its other problems that you encounter. george[/QUOTE]

I did not steer anybody to small ejection pins quite the opposite , you miss read it .
Small ejection pins will cause ejection problems if they penertrate the meplat because ejection force is too high for the small area covered by the pin face. They can bend also. Good ejecting dies can get away with smaller pins but some are not so good especially after a bit of wear as die makers tend to leave a very small amount of wear available in the core seater. Some only .0002 . It does not take much wear to be a miss match with the point former.
I have seen a few long ogive dies that the polish on the die was not that good right up the narrow meplat end and they had very slight double ogives.
Of course good dies are good dies in any ogive but smaller ogives are easier to make and get perfect. Also shorter ogives produce nice smooth ogives with less wrinkles.
 
Some minor stuff

For new bullet makers that will be using glass jars to lube the jackets:

It's a good idea to routinely clean the inside of the glass jars, as lube builds up inside. I tumble lube 250 jackets in each jar, seat the cores, then tumble lube the cored jackets for pointing. After one complete 'cycle' like this (two lubings), I clean the inside of the jars with acetone.

It's amazing how filthy the inside of the jars get......
 
thanks

Originally Posted by geo.ulrich View Post
Also the longer the ogive is the harder it is to make an accurate die and the smaller the ejection pin diameter the harder ejection can be. Especially if the die match is a bit too close.New bullet makers should start with sensible ogives for BR like 8 cal

I must have lost it somewhere :confused:, I thought I read, New Bullet makers should start with the 8 cal. ( 8 cal? 8 Ogive?) And I was only asking which Ogive seemed to work the best in a variety of barrels in the PPC. I understand about the pin penetrating the metplat. Cavity depth was not even in my mind, just which Ogive.

thanks again for your help:)
 
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J. Valentine said:
Joe, why would you think this.cavity depth is cavity depth the ogive really has nothing to do with how straight the die is.as for the small ejection pin i generally try to steer new bullet makers away from smaller ejec. pins, they eject fine its other problems that you encounter. george
Click to expand...

I did not steer anybody to small ejection pins quite the opposite , you miss read it .
Small ejection pins will cause ejection problems if they penertrate the meplat because ejection force is too high for the small area covered by the pin face. They can bend also. Good ejecting dies can get away with smaller pins but some are not so good especially after a bit of wear as die makers tend to leave a very small amount of wear available in the core seater. Some only .0002 . It does not take much wear to be a miss match with the point former.
I have seen a few long ogive dies that the polish on the die was not that good right up the narrow meplat end and they had very slight double ogives.
Of course good dies are good dies in any ogive but smaller ogives are easier to make and get perfect. Also shorter ogives produce nice smooth ogives with less wrinkles.[/QUOTE]

Joe, i never said that you steered anyone into small ejec. pins ,what i said was that i don't recomend to new bullet makers, perhaps you misread. small pins can pierce meplat and so can larger ones. you say good ejecting dies will work with smaller pins but some are not so good won't this is a die problem not the size of the ejection pin. also what you are saying is that the core seater wears faster than the point die ,no they wear the same.also bending ejection pins is a die design problem to soft of a pin or to thin a web to support the ejection pin. also the long ogives with what you call polish that was not as good at the narrow meplat this again is a die problem not ejec. pin size. a shorter ogive probably will give fewer wrinkles but lube,die finish and jacket hardness comes into play.i have made dies with ejection pins down to .040 on 6mm and they eject as good as .062 i make. as i said the small ejection pin causes other problems other than not ejecting the bullet from the die. i guess with what you have said the vld's that are being made won't work to good. george
 
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