JerrySharrett
Senile Member
In some of the recent shoots Bart was shooting an action made by someone in Kentucky that had a two piece firing pin. Supposedly that was for the shooter to be able to quickly replace the tip?? Bart?? Or was it a two piece bolt?? Bart??
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Just think of the new ideas this revolutionary action might spawn.
S
scott mims
Guest
I know Billy was shooting one of these actions that you could take the bolt all apart
http://cstmtech.com/precision-actions-2/
http://cstmtech.com/precision-actions-2/
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
Its a floating tip jerry, on barts action. Sits in a dovetail
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Thanks. I looked at that action a couple of times but never closely.
That thing sticking out on the ELYPSE? If that were an airplane it would be a canard.
A few years ago...
Who would have thought that many would pay north of 3K for a scope.
Who would have thought that many would pay north of 3K for a scope.
jackie schmidt
New member
If you read the advertisements from all of these new products, they all say, "improving the flaws built into the conventional action based on 100 year old designs".
This is typical when pushing a product, especially in a field that is saturated with a myriad of different designs based on the same concept.
Just because something is more complex, has more parts, and contains ideas that, on paper, promise to insure a better product, does not nessessarilly mean that it will offer better performance.
That "performance", in the game of Short Range Benchrest, translates to shooting winning Aggs, or Scores, in the Competitive Arena.
I don't know how many actions I have owned in the past 20 years. I've seen just about every "new innovation" come, and many go. Many, as it turned out, did contain very unique solutions to "problems" that simply did not exist. Or, to be exact, do not exist in the real world.
Much of this is due to that now not so recent advent of CAD/CAM machining innovations, which allows just about anybody to design, and manufacture, anything that the mind can dream up.
We will see.
But when you sit down with your new latest and greatest piece of machinery, and some guy with a 30 year old Panda and a GREAT lot of bullets takes home the prize..........well, think about it.
This is typical when pushing a product, especially in a field that is saturated with a myriad of different designs based on the same concept.
Just because something is more complex, has more parts, and contains ideas that, on paper, promise to insure a better product, does not nessessarilly mean that it will offer better performance.
That "performance", in the game of Short Range Benchrest, translates to shooting winning Aggs, or Scores, in the Competitive Arena.
I don't know how many actions I have owned in the past 20 years. I've seen just about every "new innovation" come, and many go. Many, as it turned out, did contain very unique solutions to "problems" that simply did not exist. Or, to be exact, do not exist in the real world.
Much of this is due to that now not so recent advent of CAD/CAM machining innovations, which allows just about anybody to design, and manufacture, anything that the mind can dream up.
We will see.
But when you sit down with your new latest and greatest piece of machinery, and some guy with a 30 year old Panda and a GREAT lot of bullets takes home the prize..........well, think about it.
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yep, Jackie is correct. You still have to read those wind flags. With that said, not everyone will be a champion. No matter what equipment they own, or how hard they try. New stuff is still fun and exciting . I just hope all the new and exciting things to come don't require a second mortgage on your home just to enjoy.
My best or most accurate rifle I own is the least expensive rifle I own. Go figure!! Lee
My best or most accurate rifle I own is the least expensive rifle I own. Go figure!! Lee
Lee Martin
Active member
Chris Harris
Member
I do not get to BRcentral as often as I should but I was told there were many questions about the new action that was showcased at the Shot Shot. I just read most of this thread and certainly there are questions. I will try answer and I am sure if there are more I will be prompted by email that there are further queries. So here goes - I will do my best.
We (BulletCentral.com) had our first time exhibitor experience at the Shot Shot last week. I wanted to present our products along with the Bix 'n Andy triggers and Actions. We previewed (for the very first time anywhere in the world) the new 2-stage Bix 'n Andy trigger and the new action.
Andy Atzl (owner of BnA) brought 4 actions across with him. He also returned with 4 actions as we did not have time to get the permits finalised to leave any here but we will have some actions sent back in some weeks and then we will be able to start offering much more constructive opinion and evidence on the action and how it is working. None were sold in the US so any reports to that effect are simply rumours.
Needless to say that the show was an overwhelming success for us and the action and triggers were incredibly well received. Our team was very proud of the reception we got.
I will explain some of the features that are included in these actions today (let's be clear - they may or may not be in the final release for the US and /or global market - we have ground to cover yet).
- The face of the action is elliptical in shape. It is deeper than it is wide as seen in one of the photos in this thread. The purpose of that is to reduce some of the vertical dispersion in the barrel vibration on firing.
- The action is wider in the front than it is at the rear of the action. The purpose is to shed weight in areas where it is not needed (toward the tang).
- We had two metal types at the show. Titanium and Stainless Steel. One of the Ti action was coated, then other not.
- The Ti action weighs in at about 22 Oz. I have forgotten the weight of the stainless version.
- The action length is about 7" or so.
- The firing pin tip floats free from the body of the firing pin body. The purpose behind this is that the tolerances that can be maintained on machining the firing pin separate are much higher. It is almost impossible to machine a firing pin perfectly straight so by doing it this way we remove that problem (to a great degree) and avoid all the transfer of vibration to the pin tip on firing. The firing pin is encapsulated in the head of the bolt where the lugs are. They are removable and replaceable. The firing pin "hammer" is also replaceable with different weights if so desired.
- The firing pin hammer (if we can call it that) is guided in the bolt body with high precision ball bearing races which provided for an amazingly smooth path for the hammer. It can literally slide out or the bolt if you tilt it once you have removed the tail cap which holds it in place.
- The firing pin spring force can be adjusted. There is also a small ball bearing race to remove any potential torsional force in the spring when cocking the rifle.
- There are ball races on both sides of the cocking piece and on the bolt handle itself to assist with bolt opening after firing. Until you feel this action you will not believe how easy it can be to open a 3 lug action. It opens easier than any 2 lug I have ever used.
- The angle on the lugs is 75 degrees - not 60 or 90 as quoted above.
- There is a hardened steel insert on the first point of extraction to protect the action body and assist further with opening.
- The action has a drop port
- It has integral Kelbly style scope dovetails
- It accepts the same tenon as a BAT B/DS (1.059" at 18tpi) with the identical headspace so your BAT barrel will screw right in there.
- It has a 3 X 2 lug arrangement. The lugs are also removable and are secured in place with a lock nut, NOT the barrel tenon. The allows for precision machining outside the action before assembly.
- The bolt face is for PPC
- The trigger hangar will accept a standard Remington drop-in type trigger so that obviously includes your Jewell and BnA triggers.
- Firing pin fall length is the same as a BAT DS/B
Andy and I have not discussed pricing yet. We will be in the testing phase in the US for a while and need to do lots of homework to decide which features we want in and out. We may well launch a deluxe ALL-IN version but I am certain that a Ti body with all bells and whistles will be a very pricy action. Any number I put out now is not going to be sensible as it will change.
The base stainless action is going to obviously be expensive as well. The body is entirely machined in a mill and has about 30 hours of time into it so you can imagine. This unit was designed to include many features that are considered solutions to common problems in the BR actions of today plus some extras not yet considered. We are NOT professing to have solved these issues. We are not boasting anything right now at all in fact. We are simply coming up with what looks like some really neat ideas and if they work, I would be very surprised if shooters do not demand them in a question shoot better which we hope furthers the sport and our business. The only thing that counts will be what this product does on the target and the equipment lists.
For those who know the BnA trigger, I don't need to tell you much about the genius of Andy Atzl. Not only is he smart but he is a really nice guy who just loves his shooting and gun building. He has been doing it for 35 years and I just like the way he goes about solving problems. He thinks out of the box and is not bound to traditional thinking.
There is a typical and understandable following for keeping it simple (KISS) and that obviously makes lots of sense but I will also say that if new ideas are integrated into an action design in such a way that they can withstand the rigours of what we do, we could well discover some big advancements. From my observations there were no alarm bells in the critical areas but I am not in the league of people like Dwight Scott and Tony Boyer when it comes to assessing these issues. The BnA trigger is a great example of added complexity and reliability. Those results are changing the game pretty rapidly. So I am very hopeful that his latest work will yield some very positive improvements. Some of the great minds of this sport are already excited to be taking a look into the new design and testing.
The other big and very notable release at our booth was the two-stage trigger. This is based on the BR trigger that many of you know and was designed specifically for target shooters requiring a precision trigger with the advantage of a two-stage design. A good example would be the Olympic team in position shooting. But there are several other classes that would be interested. F class, tactical, hunting, etc. The trigger is amazing and I am very confident that there is NOTHING in the world today that comes even close. Some features:
- Two stages
- Either stage is independent of the other and the pull weights can be set separate.
- The first stage pull length can be set anywhere from 0 to 6mm so it can be used as a single stage rigger if so wished!
- The second stage can be set all the way down to what you are used to with the BnA BR trigger and that is low.
- The total weight can be set above 3 pounds.
- Due to the fact that it is based on the BR trigger you get the exact same mechanism and reliability of the standard trigger which includes the very low upward force on the firing pin and consistent trigger pull (within 0.03 Oz!).
I hope I have addressed a good chunk of the questions and happy to answer more if there are.
Chris
We (BulletCentral.com) had our first time exhibitor experience at the Shot Shot last week. I wanted to present our products along with the Bix 'n Andy triggers and Actions. We previewed (for the very first time anywhere in the world) the new 2-stage Bix 'n Andy trigger and the new action.
Andy Atzl (owner of BnA) brought 4 actions across with him. He also returned with 4 actions as we did not have time to get the permits finalised to leave any here but we will have some actions sent back in some weeks and then we will be able to start offering much more constructive opinion and evidence on the action and how it is working. None were sold in the US so any reports to that effect are simply rumours.
Needless to say that the show was an overwhelming success for us and the action and triggers were incredibly well received. Our team was very proud of the reception we got.
I will explain some of the features that are included in these actions today (let's be clear - they may or may not be in the final release for the US and /or global market - we have ground to cover yet).
- The face of the action is elliptical in shape. It is deeper than it is wide as seen in one of the photos in this thread. The purpose of that is to reduce some of the vertical dispersion in the barrel vibration on firing.
- The action is wider in the front than it is at the rear of the action. The purpose is to shed weight in areas where it is not needed (toward the tang).
- We had two metal types at the show. Titanium and Stainless Steel. One of the Ti action was coated, then other not.
- The Ti action weighs in at about 22 Oz. I have forgotten the weight of the stainless version.
- The action length is about 7" or so.
- The firing pin tip floats free from the body of the firing pin body. The purpose behind this is that the tolerances that can be maintained on machining the firing pin separate are much higher. It is almost impossible to machine a firing pin perfectly straight so by doing it this way we remove that problem (to a great degree) and avoid all the transfer of vibration to the pin tip on firing. The firing pin is encapsulated in the head of the bolt where the lugs are. They are removable and replaceable. The firing pin "hammer" is also replaceable with different weights if so desired.
- The firing pin hammer (if we can call it that) is guided in the bolt body with high precision ball bearing races which provided for an amazingly smooth path for the hammer. It can literally slide out or the bolt if you tilt it once you have removed the tail cap which holds it in place.
- The firing pin spring force can be adjusted. There is also a small ball bearing race to remove any potential torsional force in the spring when cocking the rifle.
- There are ball races on both sides of the cocking piece and on the bolt handle itself to assist with bolt opening after firing. Until you feel this action you will not believe how easy it can be to open a 3 lug action. It opens easier than any 2 lug I have ever used.
- The angle on the lugs is 75 degrees - not 60 or 90 as quoted above.
- There is a hardened steel insert on the first point of extraction to protect the action body and assist further with opening.
- The action has a drop port
- It has integral Kelbly style scope dovetails
- It accepts the same tenon as a BAT B/DS (1.059" at 18tpi) with the identical headspace so your BAT barrel will screw right in there.
- It has a 3 X 2 lug arrangement. The lugs are also removable and are secured in place with a lock nut, NOT the barrel tenon. The allows for precision machining outside the action before assembly.
- The bolt face is for PPC
- The trigger hangar will accept a standard Remington drop-in type trigger so that obviously includes your Jewell and BnA triggers.
- Firing pin fall length is the same as a BAT DS/B
Andy and I have not discussed pricing yet. We will be in the testing phase in the US for a while and need to do lots of homework to decide which features we want in and out. We may well launch a deluxe ALL-IN version but I am certain that a Ti body with all bells and whistles will be a very pricy action. Any number I put out now is not going to be sensible as it will change.
The base stainless action is going to obviously be expensive as well. The body is entirely machined in a mill and has about 30 hours of time into it so you can imagine. This unit was designed to include many features that are considered solutions to common problems in the BR actions of today plus some extras not yet considered. We are NOT professing to have solved these issues. We are not boasting anything right now at all in fact. We are simply coming up with what looks like some really neat ideas and if they work, I would be very surprised if shooters do not demand them in a question shoot better which we hope furthers the sport and our business. The only thing that counts will be what this product does on the target and the equipment lists.
For those who know the BnA trigger, I don't need to tell you much about the genius of Andy Atzl. Not only is he smart but he is a really nice guy who just loves his shooting and gun building. He has been doing it for 35 years and I just like the way he goes about solving problems. He thinks out of the box and is not bound to traditional thinking.
There is a typical and understandable following for keeping it simple (KISS) and that obviously makes lots of sense but I will also say that if new ideas are integrated into an action design in such a way that they can withstand the rigours of what we do, we could well discover some big advancements. From my observations there were no alarm bells in the critical areas but I am not in the league of people like Dwight Scott and Tony Boyer when it comes to assessing these issues. The BnA trigger is a great example of added complexity and reliability. Those results are changing the game pretty rapidly. So I am very hopeful that his latest work will yield some very positive improvements. Some of the great minds of this sport are already excited to be taking a look into the new design and testing.
The other big and very notable release at our booth was the two-stage trigger. This is based on the BR trigger that many of you know and was designed specifically for target shooters requiring a precision trigger with the advantage of a two-stage design. A good example would be the Olympic team in position shooting. But there are several other classes that would be interested. F class, tactical, hunting, etc. The trigger is amazing and I am very confident that there is NOTHING in the world today that comes even close. Some features:
- Two stages
- Either stage is independent of the other and the pull weights can be set separate.
- The first stage pull length can be set anywhere from 0 to 6mm so it can be used as a single stage rigger if so wished!
- The second stage can be set all the way down to what you are used to with the BnA BR trigger and that is low.
- The total weight can be set above 3 pounds.
- Due to the fact that it is based on the BR trigger you get the exact same mechanism and reliability of the standard trigger which includes the very low upward force on the firing pin and consistent trigger pull (within 0.03 Oz!).
I hope I have addressed a good chunk of the questions and happy to answer more if there are.
Chris
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Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
Thanks for the report Chris.
P
pascal
Guest
Bixn PPC Action
Andy also produces a 9 lug PPC action with a dropport that he shot at the 2011 WBC in France( but it was already developped and displayed at the 2007 Austrian WBC ) : Paul Jung was excited by the design and wanted to have one as he thought it could replace his venerable Veit action for his machinegunning style . He had me come visit Andy and handle the action that i found extremely well made and good looking ( i think its the one you see on top of his website http://www.bixn-andy.at , but also extremely smooth to operate. I didnt get a chance to shoot it . Andy was also shooting his own "666" FB bullets coated with hBn . Considering the €/$ ratio its a good time to invest in this brilliant crafstman's products .
I can only dream of a rifle with this action , the Bixn trigger , maybe on an italian full carbon and one of Andy's barrels stock to keep it true to its alpine origins ,although his " Hawk" wooden stock is extremely desirable .
Andy also produces a 9 lug PPC action with a dropport that he shot at the 2011 WBC in France( but it was already developped and displayed at the 2007 Austrian WBC ) : Paul Jung was excited by the design and wanted to have one as he thought it could replace his venerable Veit action for his machinegunning style . He had me come visit Andy and handle the action that i found extremely well made and good looking ( i think its the one you see on top of his website http://www.bixn-andy.at , but also extremely smooth to operate. I didnt get a chance to shoot it . Andy was also shooting his own "666" FB bullets coated with hBn . Considering the €/$ ratio its a good time to invest in this brilliant crafstman's products .
I can only dream of a rifle with this action , the Bixn trigger , maybe on an italian full carbon and one of Andy's barrels stock to keep it true to its alpine origins ,although his " Hawk" wooden stock is extremely desirable .
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Something really neat. If you go to the B&A web site pascal lists and want to read a paragraph, for example, simply copy/paste from the B&A site to the following and do a German to English, then click on translate.
http://translation.babylon.com/german/to-english/
Or highlight a section and right click and select "translate with Bing"
http://translation.babylon.com/german/to-english/
Or highlight a section and right click and select "translate with Bing"
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J
jbhotrod
Guest
I was checking out the website, scrolling through the different rifles in the gallery, and was wondering...
whose barrels does Mr Andy use? Or does he make his own barrels? Anyone got any details on this??
whose barrels does Mr Andy use? Or does he make his own barrels? Anyone got any details on this??