Best caliber for 1000 yards

[a.JR]

Whistlersgoo, This started as a post about best cal for 1000yds on the 600/1000yd Benchrest section on Benchrest central ..I have no requirement to kill the paper targets that i shoot at at the 1000yd Benchrest matchs that i attend ,so much of the specific facts and figures that you bring to the this table are dead set wasted IMO when dealing with the competitions that already are in place ..The more that i shoot 1000yd Benchrest the more i get to see ,1st hand ,that the speed of the projectile at target is way less important than the grouping capability of ALL of those same bullets .. I don't know how much energy is required to punch my 30 cal bullets through the paper , all i do know is they do make a hole that can be measured and i need 10 from 10 bullets close together not as you seem to need , 11 from 15 .. Good luck with your quest to get a match that suits you purposes ..JR..Jeff Rogers

You are correct as far as its sanction status. I am not going to criticize anyone and I don't mean ill intent. But the latest Mil Spec( field/bench) on the .408 has beaten the .50BMG in every category with the exception of close range anti-component testing. However past 700 yards, the .408 is greatly superior to the .50BMG in both maintaining its supersonic speed and delivery greater downrange energy +/- Para. After all, that's what the round was developed for LONG RANGE! For it's intended purpose, the .408 has superior ballistic properties, the system is much, MUCH lighter to field carry, is enter-graded as a system "non-NATO". What more can you ask for? A six pack, chips and a burger?

 

[Tod Soeby]

You are correct as far as its sanction status. I am not going to criticize anyone and I don't mean ill intent. But the latest Mil Spec( field/bench) on the .408 has beaten the .50BMG in every category with the exception of close range anti-component testing. However past 700 yards, the .408 is greatly superior to the .50BMG in both maintaining its supersonic speed and delivery greater downrange energy +/- Para. After all, that's what the round was developed for LONG RANGE! For it's intended purpose, the .408 has superior ballistic properties, the system is much, MUCH lighter to field carry, is enter-graded as a system "non-NATO". What more can you ask for? A six pack, chips and a burger?

I disagree...in a way. Yes, the 408 is better than the 50 cal....with out of the box ball ammo.....low bc krap!!!

Now, load up a 50 BMG with "real" long range bullets like the A-MAX or some of the other specialty LR bullets. Run the numbers side by side with the Chytec and tell me the 408 beats the 50 cal.

Now...To be honest....I have never fired either one. I have dreamed of owning one since forever. But, I have run the numbers on the computer time and time again, and when you load the 50 up with the a-max or some other type LR bullet...well just run the numbers.

Apples/Apples.

Tod

 

[jet doc]

I don't want to jack this thread but the 50 shoots VERY well for me as far as small groups....................................................................Mark

 

[whistlersgoo]

I disagree...in a way. Yes, the 408 is better than the 50 cal....with out of the box ball ammo.....low bc krap!!!

Now, load up a 50 BMG with "real" long range bullets like the A-MAX or some of the other specialty LR bullets. Run the numbers side by side with the Chytec and tell me the 408 beats the 50 cal.

Now...To be honest....I have never fired either one. I have dreamed of owning one since forever. But, I have run the numbers on the computer time and time again, and when you load the 50 up with the a-max or some other type LR bullet...well just run the numbers.

Apples/Apples.

Tod

Hello,

First of all for a.JR, and perhaps others PLEASE don't mistake what I'm saying nor think I mean any ill will! I am simply "challenging" some techniques, applications etc., and I hope that when I do so that it is in a positive way! I love a good dialogue but have no room in my bones for anything adversarial at all! I have NEVER shot in a local, regional, state or national event! I don't want to and I never will! How do I think I would fair? Some days I would have to improve just to suck and would be better off using a sling shot while other days I may shock the entire event Competition for some is like my "good dialogue" but for me I would rather watch the event! However, I shoot and load hundreds or various rounds a month and enjoy the development process almost as much as female mud wrestling. I have been doing this for just about 30 years now. O.K. now for Tod Soeby. To me and my research, the .50 is pushing the envelope for which one can handle even with comm loads. If you have ever seen someone with "hot" loads, it like watching a dear friend get his/her a$$ kicked. And for what? That's the first issue. In sonic motion the .50 drops like a brick therefore demanding down range supersonic speeds to make it even competitive to the .408 and don't forget we haven't even juiced up the .408 yet. So I haven't even bothered to test it based on that simple law of physics. In other words to load down range supersonic loads and maintain a reasonable ballistic coe/parabola., physics dictates the need to increase the velocity at its point of origin. Hence, and as we all know, "for every positive reaction, there is an negative and equal reaction. Recoil and bullet stability in this case. So, I think it would be fair to conclude that this is why the .408 was developed in the first place. Years of testing the .50 to be tolerable and realistically effective for the intended purpose only failed. But in any event it is a fun gun to shoot but in my experience hard to tame when attempting to pursue ultra long range targets..

 

[Lynn]

Whistlegoo
There are actually quite a few guys here who competively shoot the 50bmg.The poster who goes by the web handle Jet Doc is really Mark Avakian and he is one of the best of the best when it comes to the 50bmg.I have a pair of competition 50 bmg's as well and I regularly shoot with 2 more active 50bmg competitiors.The 50 bmg runs circles around the 408 in all categories.

You will also find that most of the competitive shooters on this forum know about ballistics or at the very least they can go to the JBM Ballistics website and plug in the numbers and get the results.They are also aware that the claims made by Dean Michaelis and Warren Jensen are at best very deceptive.You simply can't compare a 408 shooting a 419 grain monolithioc solid at 72,000 PSI of pressure against a 50 bmg using a tracer round with a ballistic coefficient around 0.650 and get a fair comparison.A typical 6.5X284 has a similar trajectory if your comparing match ammo to military surplus.
What makes the 50 bmg shine is the 705-850 grain monolithic boreriders with a bc number closer to 1.18 at 2750 fps.The 408 simply can't compete against the 50 when using similar components.

We have invited the gang from Idaho to compete at many matches and in all the years not a single one of them has swallowed the bait.They prefer to stay at home with there known targets at known distances were they can dazzle the guys who are not as up to date on the realities of real longrange shooting.
In closing I am honestly not bitter about any of there outlandish and blatantly false claims.Everybody starts somewhere and it is better to be gung ho and goo goo eyed than a non shooter in my opinion.I see you are located in Southern,California so I'll make you a deal.There is a brand new NBRSA affiliated club located in Ojai.I heard a rumor that they might hold a 600 yard match in March of this coming year and I invite you to join us there.I will loan you one of my bench guns to shoot with at the match as well.All this will cost you nothing but I ask that after the conclusion of the match you take your 408 out to 600 yards and post back how it grouped compared to one of my guns with you shooting it.
Waterboy

 

[whistlersgoo]

Whistlegoo
There are actually quite a few guys here who competively shoot the 50bmg.The poster who goes by the web handle Jet Doc is really Mark Avakian and he is one of the best of the best when it comes to the 50bmg.I have a pair of competition 50 bmg's as well and I regularly shoot with 2 more active 50bmg competitiors.The 50 bmg runs circles around the 408 in all categories.

You will also find that most of the competitive shooters on this forum know about ballistics or at the very least they can go to the JBM Ballistics website and plug in the numbers and get the results.They are also aware that the claims made by Dean Michaelis and Warren Jensen are at best very deceptive.You simply can't compare a 408 shooting a 419 grain monolithioc solid at 72,000 PSI of pressure against a 50 bmg using a tracer round with a ballistic coefficient around 0.650 and get a fair comparison.A typical 6.5X284 has a similar trajectory if your comparing match ammo to military surplus.
What makes the 50 bmg shine is the 705-850 grain monolithic boreriders with a bc number closer to 1.18 at 2750 fps.The 408 simply can't compete against the 50 when using similar components.

We have invited the gang from Idaho to compete at many matches and in all the years not a single one of them has swallowed the bait.They prefer to stay at home with there known targets at known distances were they can dazzle the guys who are not as up to date on the realities of real longrange shooting.
In closing I am honestly not bitter about any of there outlandish and blatantly false claims.Everybody starts somewhere and it is better to be gung ho and goo goo eyed than a non shooter in my opinion.I see you are located in Southern,California so I'll make you a deal.There is a brand new NBRSA affiliated club located in Ojai.I heard a rumor that they might hold a 600 yard match in March of this coming year and I invite you to join us there.I will loan you one of my bench guns to shoot with at the match as well.All this will cost you nothing but I ask that after the conclusion of the match you take your 408 out to 600 yards and post back how it grouped compared to one of my guns with you shooting it.
Waterboy

Hello, and good day,

Yes, you would be talking about Ojai Valley Gun Club. Unfortunately your system (s) are illegal in CA. and as far as I know are not allowed even in a sanctioned event. You may want to check it out before signing-up (I may be wrong). Losing your guns for good and going to jail would not be a fun trip But should the event take place, I would not compete with you because as I clearly said "the .408 outperforms the .50 past 700 yards" not 600 yards. For that I would take you on with my BAS 10. I may loose, but only due to the operator (me) I don't claim to be an expert shooter! But as to going "gung ho, goo goo eyed" and making false claims, I can only assume that was directed elsewhere as I don't believe anyone would argue with the principles of physics. I am not going to banter words with you, it is pointless. However, I would point out that your quoted reference (s) and one in particular a "bc number closer to 1.18 at 2750 fps" are simply a "fixed" number and/or equation when formulated at a particular state. So here is my challenge to you. We will leave all reverse and neutral parameters fixed as to make the challenge simple. And I will also assume you understand the super and sub-sonic properties required to stabilize your projectile. So with that said, refine your projectile to deliver a group out at 2000 yards within the M1ATGL spec. Only parabolic signatures within the curve will be required so it's simply a question of "external, transitional (intermediate) and terminal ballistics graphed within the parabola. And when you solved each transition, I will show you mine so you can proof it so there's no funny biz going on. Then we will compare the two for long-range (1000 yard +) superiority. By the way, should you guys make it down here, I would love to meet you guys and watch you shoot! I do shoot and have more systems than anyone should be allowed to have but I make my living on the other end..

 

[Lynn]

Whistlegoo
I think you missed my point on several levels.
First a 1.18 bc bullet at 2750 fps outy of a 50 bmg simply cannot be out performed by the 408 Chey-Tac round.
2nd The 408 round is simply not capable of pushing a higher bc bullet at a faster velocity so its trajectory can't compare to that of a 50 bmg.This is actual fact and not speculation as I once owned a 408.
3rd I do shoot both of my 50bmg's in California and they are both perfectly legal to use and to own.
4th The range and match at Ojai precludes the use of a 408 or 50 bmg in NBRSA competition so that is a mute point.I wanted you to shoot one of my bench guns so you on your own could compare its accuracy against that of your chey-tac.

The .408 Cheyenne Tactical (or .408 Chey Tac) is a specialized rimless bottlenecked centerfire cartridge for military long-range sniper rifles that was developed by Dr. John D. Taylor and machinist William O. Wordman. It was designed with a possible military need in mind for a cartridge for both the anti-personnel, anti-sniper and anti-materiel role with a (supersonic) precision range of 2,187 yards (2,000 m). It is hoped it will fill in a supposed market niche as an intermediate between the existing military long-range cartridges .338 Lapua Magnum and the .50 bmg

5th if you notice the manufacturer of the 408 claims it will fit in between the 338 Lapua and the 50 bmg.They no longer claim it is superior because they nearly went out of business trying to support such easily disputed and proven claims.
Waterboy

 

[whistlersgoo]

Just do the math...

Whistlegoo
I think you missed my point on several levels.
First a 1.18 bc bullet at 2750 fps outy of a 50 bmg simply cannot be out performed by the 408 Chey-Tac round.
2nd The 408 round is simply not capable of pushing a higher bc bullet at a faster velocity so its trajectory can't compare to that of a 50 bmg.This is actual fact and not speculation as I once owned a 408.
3rd I do shoot both of my 50bmg's in California and they are both perfectly legal to use and to own.
4th The range and match at Ojai precludes the use of a 408 or 50 bmg in NBRSA competition so that is a mute point.I wanted you to shoot one of my bench guns so you on your own could compare its accuracy against that of your chey-tac.

The .408 Cheyenne Tactical (or .408 Chey Tac) is a specialized rimless bottlenecked centerfire cartridge for military long-range sniper rifles that was developed by Dr. John D. Taylor and machinist William O. Wordman. It was designed with a possible military need in mind for a cartridge for both the anti-personnel, anti-sniper and anti-materiel role with a (supersonic) precision range of 2,187 yards (2,000 m). It is hoped it will fill in a supposed market niche as an intermediate between the existing military long-range cartridges .338 Lapua Magnum and the .50 bmg

5th if you notice the manufacturer of the 408 claims it will fit in between the 338 Lapua and the 50 bmg.They no longer claim it is superior because they nearly went out of business trying to support such easily disputed and proven claims.
Waterboy

First a quote from the office of the CA Attorney General's Office.

" Effective January 1, 2005, the .50 Caliber BMG Regulation Act of 2004 regulates the .50 BMG rifles in essentially the same manner as assault weapons. The law generally prohibits the manufacturing, importation, sale and possession of .50 BMG riles. The same basic exceptions that apply to assault weapons will also apply to the new .50 BMG rifle restrictions. For individuals who lawfully possessed .50 BMG rifles prior to January 1, 2005, the new law also provides for the registration and possession of their .50 BMG rifles". You can find the info here-->(http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/50bmgfaqs.php#1).

So if you owned one prior to enactment of the law, you could (after registration) legally own one. After that date NO!

Second, I don't understand how I could have misunderstood you!? Your point (although incomplete) was very simple just as the problem I proposed was. I'm not sure but I think you are implying the projectile (mass) BC is a "non-variable" as it travels down-range? Your not telling me this are you?? If you are, there's no more to talk about and I guess we can call it a day? But I'm sure you no better than that, so....provide your parabolic transitions from the question and we can compare... and move on and take a look at the two. Remember that I have left out both reverse and neutral mechanics so as to make the solution more simple.

Another reminder, I don't drop names and I feel to do so implies that you are relying on their expertise (just my opinion). However with the exception of one of the names I know all of those you have mentioned and many more you have not. There are a few things you got right and a few you did not. I was there, you weren't so no harm done. I was in Yuma (not Idaho) in 2001 observing test operations for the .408 and when all was equal the .408 outperformed the .50 period! And should you feel that I have a beef with the .50 I DON"T, my grandfather took up work when Winchester (the original contracting firm to develop the .50) transferred that particular operation to the Frankford Arsenal in late 1918. Weapon development was assigned to John Browning and Colt. I won't go on to tell just how much I know about the "fifty" but it's pretty up, down and side to side with nothing showing that needs paint! I also have one of the original necked down solid brass 12 GA. shot shells loaded with a 45-70 projectile sitting on my shelf!

Now, just provide a parabolic solution with transition points to my original question. It will without any doubt what-so-ever provide clarity to what I think is becoming an over complicated argument based on only conversation that tends to be ill favored in which I don't want to participate in. There is no glory who's right/who's wrong to this other than understanding the terminal performance and what is/was if at all: necessary to achieve it. Then comparing and testing it. This is simply testing the hypotenuse! Hence, taking a theory and proving it...
Towel-boy....

 

[Lynn]

Whistlegoo
If you were at Yuma and I doubt you were you would realise the 408 does not out perform the 50bmg.I was given the Yuma Doppler radar data from Dean Michaelis at that time.Are you Dean? Yes the bc of a bullet does change as the velocity varies and yes the original Data does show it going down and up yes up as the bullet slowed down.
The facts remain the same despite the amount of time that has passed.Once the money source was killed in a traffic accident the 408 was and is a dead duck.The new brass is terrible and the bullet selection has always been bad.
I have done the math and it is not rocket science.The 50bmg simply outperforms the 408 in every category.
You need to remember were you are posting first and foremost.You can use smoke and mirrors on Snipershide or even the Biggerhammer forum but when you show up here your nonesense is going to be pointed out.

Here is the math.

JBM - Calculations

Input Data
Manufacturer: Lehigh Description: Match BoreRider - Long Band
Caliber: 0.510 in Weight: 794.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.124 G1

Muzzle Velocity: 2800.0 ft/s

Sight Height: 1.50 in Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg
Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Target Speed: 10.0 mph

Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 lb/ft³ Altitude: 0.0 ft

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 3.592 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.07647 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.5 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 363 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 306 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 166 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 11062.1 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.436 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2800.0 2.508 13819.9 0.000 0.0 ***
50 -0.2 -0.3 0.1 0.1 2758.2 2.470 13410.2 0.054 9.5 18.1
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.3 0.3 2716.8 2.433 13010.5 0.109 19.1 18.3
150 -1.0 -0.6 0.6 0.4 2675.7 2.397 12620.5 0.164 28.9 18.4
200 -3.2 -1.5 1.2 0.6 2635.1 2.360 12239.9 0.221 38.9 18.6
250 -6.7 -2.5 1.8 0.7 2594.8 2.324 11868.6 0.278 49.0 18.7
300 -11.4 -3.6 2.7 0.8 2554.9 2.288 11506.3 0.337 59.2 18.9
350 -17.5 -4.8 3.6 1.0 2515.3 2.253 11152.7 0.396 69.6 19.0
400 -25.0 -6.0 4.8 1.1 2476.1 2.218 10807.7 0.456 80.2 19.2
450 -33.8 -7.2 6.1 1.3 2437.3 2.183 10471.2 0.517 91.0 19.3
500 -44.2 -8.4 7.6 1.5 2398.8 2.149 10142.9 0.579 101.9 19.5
550 -56.0 -9.7 9.3 1.6 2360.6 2.114 9822.6 0.642 113.0 19.6
600 -69.4 -11.1 11.1 1.8 2322.8 2.080 9510.3 0.706 124.3 19.8
650 -84.4 -12.4 13.1 1.9 2285.3 2.047 9205.8 0.771 135.7 19.9
700 -101.1 -13.8 15.4 2.1 2248.1 2.014 8908.8 0.837 147.4 20.1
750 -119.5 -15.2 17.8 2.3 2211.3 1.981 8619.3 0.905 159.2 20.3
800 -139.7 -16.7 20.4 2.4 2174.8 1.948 8337.2 0.973 171.2 20.4
850 -161.7 -18.2 23.2 2.6 2138.6 1.916 8062.3 1.043 183.5 20.6
900 -185.6 -19.7 26.2 2.8 2102.8 1.883 7794.5 1.113 195.9 20.8
950 -211.5 -21.3 29.5 3.0 2067.3 1.852 7533.8 1.185 208.6 21.0
1000 -239.4 -22.9 32.9 3.1 2032.2 1.820 7280.1 1.258 221.5 21.1
1050 -269.4 -24.5 36.6 3.3 1997.5 1.789 7033.2 1.333 234.6 21.3
1100 -301.6 -26.2 40.5 3.5 1963.1 1.758 6793.2 1.409 247.9 21.5
1150 -336.1 -27.9 44.6 3.7 1929.1 1.728 6559.7 1.486 261.5 21.7
1200 -372.9 -29.7 49.0 3.9 1895.4 1.698 6333.0 1.564 275.3 21.9
1250 -412.1 -31.5 53.6 4.1 1862.2 1.668 6112.7 1.644 289.4 22.1
1300 -453.8 -33.3 58.5 4.3 1829.3 1.638 5898.8 1.725 303.7 22.3
1350 -498.1 -35.2 63.7 4.5 1796.9 1.609 5691.3 1.808 318.2 22.5
1400 -545.1 -37.2 69.1 4.7 1764.8 1.581 5490.1 1.892 333.1 22.7
1450 -594.9 -39.2 74.7 4.9 1733.2 1.552 5295.1 1.978 348.2 22.9
1500 -647.6 -41.2 80.7 5.1 1702.0 1.524 5106.3 2.066 363.5 23.1
1550 -703.3 -43.3 86.9 5.4 1671.3 1.497 4923.5 2.155 379.2 23.4
1600 -762.1 -45.5 93.4 5.6 1641.0 1.470 4746.8 2.245 395.1 23.6
1650 -824.1 -47.7 100.2 5.8 1611.2 1.443 4576.0 2.337 411.4 23.8
1700 -889.5 -50.0 107.4 6.0 1581.9 1.417 4411.1 2.431 427.9 24.0
1750 -958.3 -52.3 114.8 6.3 1553.1 1.391 4252.0 2.527 444.8 24.3
1800 -1030.8 -54.7 122.5 6.5 1524.8 1.366 4098.6 2.625 462.0 24.5
1850 -1107.0 -57.1 130.6 6.7 1497.1 1.341 3950.9 2.724 479.5 24.7
1900 -1187.1 -59.7 139.0 7.0 1470.0 1.317 3808.9 2.825 497.3 25.0
1950 -1271.2 -62.3 147.7 7.2 1443.4 1.293 3672.3 2.928 515.4 25.2
2000 -1359.5 -64.9 156.7 7.5 1417.4 1.270 3541.3 3.033 533.9 25.5


Here is the 408
Input Data
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.940 G1 Caliber: 0.408 in
Bullet Weight: 419.0 gr

Muzzle Velocity: 2800.0 ft/s

Sight Height: 1.50 in Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg
Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Target Speed: 10.0 mph

Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 lb/ft³ Altitude: 0.0 ft

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 3.600 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.07647 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.5 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 359 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 303 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 165 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 5598.7 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.631 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2800.0 2.508 7292.8 0.000 0.0 ***
50 -0.2 -0.3 0.1 0.2 2750.0 2.463 7035.0 0.054 9.5 18.2
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.3 0.3 2700.7 2.419 6784.5 0.109 19.2 18.3
150 -1.0 -0.6 0.8 0.5 2651.8 2.375 6541.4 0.165 29.1 18.5
200 -3.3 -1.6 1.4 0.7 2603.5 2.332 6305.3 0.222 39.1 18.7
250 -6.8 -2.6 2.2 0.8 2555.7 2.289 6075.9 0.280 49.3 18.8
300 -11.7 -3.7 3.2 1.0 2508.5 2.247 5853.2 0.340 59.8 19.0
350 -17.9 -4.9 4.4 1.2 2461.7 2.205 5637.0 0.400 70.4 19.2
400 -25.6 -6.1 5.8 1.4 2415.4 2.163 5427.1 0.462 81.2 19.4
450 -34.8 -7.4 7.4 1.6 2369.6 2.122 5223.3 0.524 92.3 19.6
500 -45.5 -8.7 9.2 1.8 2324.3 2.082 5025.5 0.588 103.5 19.8
550 -57.8 -10.0 11.3 2.0 2279.5 2.042 4833.6 0.653 115.0 20.0
600 -71.8 -11.4 13.5 2.2 2235.2 2.002 4647.4 0.720 126.7 20.2
650 -87.5 -12.9 16.0 2.4 2191.3 1.963 4466.7 0.788 138.6 20.4
700 -105.1 -14.3 18.8 2.6 2147.9 1.924 4291.6 0.857 150.8 20.6
750 -124.5 -15.8 21.8 2.8 2105.0 1.885 4121.9 0.927 163.2 20.8
800 -145.9 -17.4 25.0 3.0 2062.6 1.847 3957.5 0.999 175.9 21.0
850 -169.3 -19.0 28.5 3.2 2020.7 1.810 3798.4 1.073 188.8 21.2
900 -194.9 -20.7 32.3 3.4 1979.3 1.773 3644.4 1.148 202.0 21.4
950 -222.6 -22.4 36.3 3.7 1938.5 1.736 3495.5 1.224 215.5 21.7
1000 -252.7 -24.1 40.7 3.9 1898.2 1.700 3351.6 1.302 229.2 21.9
1050 -285.2 -25.9 45.3 4.1 1858.4 1.665 3212.6 1.382 243.3 22.1
1100 -320.2 -27.8 50.2 4.4 1819.2 1.629 3078.4 1.464 257.7 22.4
1150 -357.9 -29.7 55.5 4.6 1780.5 1.595 2949.0 1.547 272.3 22.6
1200 -398.3 -31.7 61.0 4.9 1742.5 1.561 2824.4 1.633 287.3 22.9
1250 -441.5 -33.7 66.9 5.1 1705.1 1.527 2704.4 1.720 302.6 23.1
1300 -487.8 -35.8 73.2 5.4 1668.3 1.494 2589.0 1.809 318.3 23.4
1350 -537.1 -38.0 79.7 5.6 1632.2 1.462 2478.1 1.899 334.3 23.6
1400 -589.8 -40.2 86.7 5.9 1596.8 1.430 2371.7 1.992 350.7 23.9
1450 -645.8 -42.5 94.0 6.2 1562.1 1.399 2269.7 2.087 367.4 24.2
1500 -705.4 -44.9 101.6 6.5 1528.1 1.369 2172.1 2.185 384.5 24.5
1550 -768.7 -47.4 109.7 6.8 1494.9 1.339 2078.7 2.284 402.0 24.8
1600 -836.0 -49.9 118.1 7.0 1462.5 1.310 1989.6 2.385 419.8 25.1
1650 -907.2 -52.5 127.0 7.3 1430.9 1.282 1904.6 2.489 438.1 25.4
1700 -982.8 -55.2 136.2 7.7 1400.2 1.254 1823.7 2.595 456.8 25.7
1750 -1062.8 -58.0 145.8 8.0 1370.4 1.227 1746.9 2.704 475.8 26.0
1800 -1147.4 -60.9 155.9 8.3 1341.5 1.202 1674.1 2.814 495.3 26.3
1850 -1236.8 -63.8 166.4 8.6 1313.6 1.177 1605.2 2.928 515.3 26.6
1900 -1331.3 -66.9 177.3 8.9 1286.7 1.152 1540.1 3.043 535.6 26.9
1950 -1431.1 -70.1 188.6 9.2 1260.9 1.129 1478.9 3.161 556.3 27.2
2000 -1536.4 -73.4 200.4 9.6 1236.1 1.107 1421.3 3.281 577.5 27.6


Clearly the 408 is down 180 inches more than the 50 bmg at 2000 yards.I am also using 68,190 PSI of pressure for the 408 which is ridiculously high.
Waterboy

 

[Bnhpr]

Hi there, the answer to your question is simple! You can do 1 of 2 things. 1. Simply contact the manufacturer and ask for a copy of the Y1s0 test data for your rifle's barrel. 2. Have your barrel rock (Rockwell) tested and gather it's metallurgic components (in percentage) and after you have "tabled" your elements, WaLaa! I agree that stabilization is our most important factor, but like a plane, a rocket, a paper airplane and a rock skipping across a pond, velocity (V1/) and aerodynamics are what cause stabilization!

What does bbl hardness have to do with cartidge pressures? I have been living under the belief that it was land/groove variance that drove pressure variance...barrel to barrel...on any given load.

Ben

 

[alinwa]

GIVE UP LYNN!!!!!!



You can't profess wi' dis!!!..... He swif' like butt'fly, sane like a bee..... he dismiss you like siffliss....




"""....provide your parabolic transitions from the question and we can compare... and move on and take a look at the two. Remember that I have left out both reverse and neutral mechanics so as to make the solution more simple.

Now, just provide a parabolic solution with transition points to my original question. It will without any doubt what-so-ever provide clarity to what I think is becoming an over complicated argument based on only conversation that tends to be ill favored in which I don't want to participate in. There is no glory who's right/who's wrong to this other than understanding the terminal performance and what is/was if at all: necessary to achieve it. Then comparing and testing it. This is simply testing the hypotenuse! Hence, taking a theory and proving it..."""

just wow......

I try, really I do but this is too good! I just hope Frank L Murphy is reading this he'll appreciate it.

Deep like cess.

DUDE!!! "This is just testing the hypotenuse"!!!

I'm sure that over on Snipers Parodies or Grunting Around Ye Jollie Communal Rock this BWB stuff goes over great. . . . . . "Ohhh Mighty Gooo, Bhodisa'tvah of thee Trajektoreee, we salud you" ...... but here?? ROTFLMAO!!

priceless



al




BTW, I know of Whistler's Mother....... evidently there's more to the sto....???


ahhh, never mind...it'll prolly get deleted anyways....

 

[blacktornado]

I start this thread in order to find the best way to follow to build a proper 1000 yards BR rifle according to NBRSA/IBS/williamson rules. Sorry but I'm NOT interested on .408 CheyTac or .50BMG. Please stop the discussion on those because they are OT.Simply not interesting or open your own thread. I would like to hear discussion on 300 WBY,300WSM,300RUM,6,5x284,6,5x47,7WSM,7SAUM,308Baer,6BR,6Dasher,6x47..........Those are mainly the most used calibers in long range matches. I don't want to talk about angel sex. I just want to build rifle to compete in long range sanctioned matches. That's it.
Thanks to everybody will help.
Regards
GFZ

 

[Greg Culpepper]

I start this thread in order to find the best way to follow to build a proper 1000 yards BR rifle according to NBRSA/IBS/williamson rules. Sorry but I'm NOT interested on .408 CheyTac or .50BMG. Please stop the discussion on those because they are OT.Simply not interesting or open your own thread. I would like to hear discussion on 300 WBY,300WSM,300RUM,6,5x284,6,5x47,7WSM,7SAUM,308Baer,6BR,6Dasher,6x47..........Those are mainly the most used calibers in long range matches. I don't want to talk about angel sex. I just want to build rifle to compete in long range sanctioned matches. That's it.
Thanks to everybody will help.
Regards
GFZ

blacktornado,

Any long range accuracy program has to include great brass and that's where I start. There are many more good choices available for bore size, barrels, bullets and twist rates than for great brass so what great brass is available to you is the place to start. For the rest of the discussion I'll assume that you can get great brass in any of the possibilities. My choices include a healthy consideration for long barrel life and many available bullet alternatives.

I'm not clear what your anticipated mix of 600 and 1K matches might be but since you are already deep into bench games at short range and presumably possess good gun handling skills and assuming (from the end of your initial post) an emphasis on 1K my advice would be a couple of 300 WSMs with 11" twist barrels for 210 gr bullets, one for light gun and one for heavy.

A 600 yd program is better served with an 8" twist 6 BR. Most 600 yd competitors use one gun for light and heavy.

For someone new to bench games and wanting to shoot both 600 and 1K I would advise a .272 (no turn) neck 6BR for everything (both distances, heavy and light classes).

The next addition to the program might be a 300 WSM light gun for 1K and continuing to use the 6BR for heavy at 1K.

Then add a dedicated 300 WSM heavy gun for 1K and those 600 yd matches when the wind howls.

But if you want to start with one rifle for everything even including F-Class (which you haven't mentioned) I would advise jumping in with a 6BR.

Great brass, great headache free accuracy, great bullets, no brake required so class versatility, long barrel life and easy to shoot (low recoil)

That's my story and I'm stikin' to it.

Greg

 

[whistlersgoo]

Enough!

Whistlegoo
If you were at Yuma and I doubt you were you would realise the 408 does not out perform the 50bmg.I was given the Yuma Doppler radar data from Dean Michaelis at that time.Are you Dean? Yes the bc of a bullet does change as the velocity varies and yes the original Data does show it going down and up yes up as the bullet slowed down.
The facts remain the same despite the amount of time that has passed.Once the money source was killed in a traffic accident the 408 was and is a dead duck.The new brass is terrible and the bullet selection has always been bad.
I have done the math and it is not rocket science.The 50bmg simply outperforms the 408 in every category.
You need to remember were you are posting first and foremost.You can use smoke and mirrors on Snipershide or even the Biggerhammer forum but when you show up here your nonesense is going to be pointed out.

Here is the math.

JBM - Calculations

Input Data
Manufacturer: Lehigh Description: Match BoreRider - Long Band
Caliber: 0.510 in Weight: 794.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.124 G1

Muzzle Velocity: 2800.0 ft/s

Sight Height: 1.50 in Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg
Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Target Speed: 10.0 mph

Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 lb/ft³ Altitude: 0.0 ft

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 3.592 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.07647 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.5 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 363 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 306 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 166 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 11062.1 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.436 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2800.0 2.508 13819.9 0.000 0.0 ***
50 -0.2 -0.3 0.1 0.1 2758.2 2.470 13410.2 0.054 9.5 18.1
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.3 0.3 2716.8 2.433 13010.5 0.109 19.1 18.3
150 -1.0 -0.6 0.6 0.4 2675.7 2.397 12620.5 0.164 28.9 18.4
200 -3.2 -1.5 1.2 0.6 2635.1 2.360 12239.9 0.221 38.9 18.6
250 -6.7 -2.5 1.8 0.7 2594.8 2.324 11868.6 0.278 49.0 18.7
300 -11.4 -3.6 2.7 0.8 2554.9 2.288 11506.3 0.337 59.2 18.9
350 -17.5 -4.8 3.6 1.0 2515.3 2.253 11152.7 0.396 69.6 19.0
400 -25.0 -6.0 4.8 1.1 2476.1 2.218 10807.7 0.456 80.2 19.2
450 -33.8 -7.2 6.1 1.3 2437.3 2.183 10471.2 0.517 91.0 19.3
500 -44.2 -8.4 7.6 1.5 2398.8 2.149 10142.9 0.579 101.9 19.5
550 -56.0 -9.7 9.3 1.6 2360.6 2.114 9822.6 0.642 113.0 19.6
600 -69.4 -11.1 11.1 1.8 2322.8 2.080 9510.3 0.706 124.3 19.8
650 -84.4 -12.4 13.1 1.9 2285.3 2.047 9205.8 0.771 135.7 19.9
700 -101.1 -13.8 15.4 2.1 2248.1 2.014 8908.8 0.837 147.4 20.1
750 -119.5 -15.2 17.8 2.3 2211.3 1.981 8619.3 0.905 159.2 20.3
800 -139.7 -16.7 20.4 2.4 2174.8 1.948 8337.2 0.973 171.2 20.4
850 -161.7 -18.2 23.2 2.6 2138.6 1.916 8062.3 1.043 183.5 20.6
900 -185.6 -19.7 26.2 2.8 2102.8 1.883 7794.5 1.113 195.9 20.8
950 -211.5 -21.3 29.5 3.0 2067.3 1.852 7533.8 1.185 208.6 21.0
1000 -239.4 -22.9 32.9 3.1 2032.2 1.820 7280.1 1.258 221.5 21.1
1050 -269.4 -24.5 36.6 3.3 1997.5 1.789 7033.2 1.333 234.6 21.3
1100 -301.6 -26.2 40.5 3.5 1963.1 1.758 6793.2 1.409 247.9 21.5
1150 -336.1 -27.9 44.6 3.7 1929.1 1.728 6559.7 1.486 261.5 21.7
1200 -372.9 -29.7 49.0 3.9 1895.4 1.698 6333.0 1.564 275.3 21.9
1250 -412.1 -31.5 53.6 4.1 1862.2 1.668 6112.7 1.644 289.4 22.1
1300 -453.8 -33.3 58.5 4.3 1829.3 1.638 5898.8 1.725 303.7 22.3
1350 -498.1 -35.2 63.7 4.5 1796.9 1.609 5691.3 1.808 318.2 22.5
1400 -545.1 -37.2 69.1 4.7 1764.8 1.581 5490.1 1.892 333.1 22.7
1450 -594.9 -39.2 74.7 4.9 1733.2 1.552 5295.1 1.978 348.2 22.9
1500 -647.6 -41.2 80.7 5.1 1702.0 1.524 5106.3 2.066 363.5 23.1
1550 -703.3 -43.3 86.9 5.4 1671.3 1.497 4923.5 2.155 379.2 23.4
1600 -762.1 -45.5 93.4 5.6 1641.0 1.470 4746.8 2.245 395.1 23.6
1650 -824.1 -47.7 100.2 5.8 1611.2 1.443 4576.0 2.337 411.4 23.8
1700 -889.5 -50.0 107.4 6.0 1581.9 1.417 4411.1 2.431 427.9 24.0
1750 -958.3 -52.3 114.8 6.3 1553.1 1.391 4252.0 2.527 444.8 24.3
1800 -1030.8 -54.7 122.5 6.5 1524.8 1.366 4098.6 2.625 462.0 24.5
1850 -1107.0 -57.1 130.6 6.7 1497.1 1.341 3950.9 2.724 479.5 24.7
1900 -1187.1 -59.7 139.0 7.0 1470.0 1.317 3808.9 2.825 497.3 25.0
1950 -1271.2 -62.3 147.7 7.2 1443.4 1.293 3672.3 2.928 515.4 25.2
2000 -1359.5 -64.9 156.7 7.5 1417.4 1.270 3541.3 3.033 533.9 25.5


Here is the 408
Input Data
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.940 G1 Caliber: 0.408 in
Bullet Weight: 419.0 gr

Muzzle Velocity: 2800.0 ft/s

Sight Height: 1.50 in Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg
Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Target Speed: 10.0 mph

Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 lb/ft³ Altitude: 0.0 ft

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 3.600 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.07647 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.5 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 359 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 303 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 165 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 5598.7 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.631 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2800.0 2.508 7292.8 0.000 0.0 ***
50 -0.2 -0.3 0.1 0.2 2750.0 2.463 7035.0 0.054 9.5 18.2
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.3 0.3 2700.7 2.419 6784.5 0.109 19.2 18.3
150 -1.0 -0.6 0.8 0.5 2651.8 2.375 6541.4 0.165 29.1 18.5
200 -3.3 -1.6 1.4 0.7 2603.5 2.332 6305.3 0.222 39.1 18.7
250 -6.8 -2.6 2.2 0.8 2555.7 2.289 6075.9 0.280 49.3 18.8
300 -11.7 -3.7 3.2 1.0 2508.5 2.247 5853.2 0.340 59.8 19.0
350 -17.9 -4.9 4.4 1.2 2461.7 2.205 5637.0 0.400 70.4 19.2
400 -25.6 -6.1 5.8 1.4 2415.4 2.163 5427.1 0.462 81.2 19.4
450 -34.8 -7.4 7.4 1.6 2369.6 2.122 5223.3 0.524 92.3 19.6
500 -45.5 -8.7 9.2 1.8 2324.3 2.082 5025.5 0.588 103.5 19.8
550 -57.8 -10.0 11.3 2.0 2279.5 2.042 4833.6 0.653 115.0 20.0
600 -71.8 -11.4 13.5 2.2 2235.2 2.002 4647.4 0.720 126.7 20.2
650 -87.5 -12.9 16.0 2.4 2191.3 1.963 4466.7 0.788 138.6 20.4
700 -105.1 -14.3 18.8 2.6 2147.9 1.924 4291.6 0.857 150.8 20.6
750 -124.5 -15.8 21.8 2.8 2105.0 1.885 4121.9 0.927 163.2 20.8
800 -145.9 -17.4 25.0 3.0 2062.6 1.847 3957.5 0.999 175.9 21.0
850 -169.3 -19.0 28.5 3.2 2020.7 1.810 3798.4 1.073 188.8 21.2
900 -194.9 -20.7 32.3 3.4 1979.3 1.773 3644.4 1.148 202.0 21.4
950 -222.6 -22.4 36.3 3.7 1938.5 1.736 3495.5 1.224 215.5 21.7
1000 -252.7 -24.1 40.7 3.9 1898.2 1.700 3351.6 1.302 229.2 21.9
1050 -285.2 -25.9 45.3 4.1 1858.4 1.665 3212.6 1.382 243.3 22.1
1100 -320.2 -27.8 50.2 4.4 1819.2 1.629 3078.4 1.464 257.7 22.4
1150 -357.9 -29.7 55.5 4.6 1780.5 1.595 2949.0 1.547 272.3 22.6
1200 -398.3 -31.7 61.0 4.9 1742.5 1.561 2824.4 1.633 287.3 22.9
1250 -441.5 -33.7 66.9 5.1 1705.1 1.527 2704.4 1.720 302.6 23.1
1300 -487.8 -35.8 73.2 5.4 1668.3 1.494 2589.0 1.809 318.3 23.4
1350 -537.1 -38.0 79.7 5.6 1632.2 1.462 2478.1 1.899 334.3 23.6
1400 -589.8 -40.2 86.7 5.9 1596.8 1.430 2371.7 1.992 350.7 23.9
1450 -645.8 -42.5 94.0 6.2 1562.1 1.399 2269.7 2.087 367.4 24.2
1500 -705.4 -44.9 101.6 6.5 1528.1 1.369 2172.1 2.185 384.5 24.5
1550 -768.7 -47.4 109.7 6.8 1494.9 1.339 2078.7 2.284 402.0 24.8
1600 -836.0 -49.9 118.1 7.0 1462.5 1.310 1989.6 2.385 419.8 25.1
1650 -907.2 -52.5 127.0 7.3 1430.9 1.282 1904.6 2.489 438.1 25.4
1700 -982.8 -55.2 136.2 7.7 1400.2 1.254 1823.7 2.595 456.8 25.7
1750 -1062.8 -58.0 145.8 8.0 1370.4 1.227 1746.9 2.704 475.8 26.0
1800 -1147.4 -60.9 155.9 8.3 1341.5 1.202 1674.1 2.814 495.3 26.3
1850 -1236.8 -63.8 166.4 8.6 1313.6 1.177 1605.2 2.928 515.3 26.6
1900 -1331.3 -66.9 177.3 8.9 1286.7 1.152 1540.1 3.043 535.6 26.9
1950 -1431.1 -70.1 188.6 9.2 1260.9 1.129 1478.9 3.161 556.3 27.2
2000 -1536.4 -73.4 200.4 9.6 1236.1 1.107 1421.3 3.281 577.5 27.6


Clearly the 408 is down 180 inches more than the 50 bmg at 2000 yards.I am also using 68,190 PSI of pressure for the 408 which is ridiculously high.
Waterboy

"Here is the math" you say! What math? Do you know the difference between a solution and simple input data?

I simply asked you to "in your own" formula to prove what you have claimed! You have excelled well in posting data that is irrelevant to what was asked having nothing to do with the terminal solution! Why do I want to look at simple input data?

You have doubted where I have been, questioned physical facts and have provided used input data that is all. Can you tell me using the above "sd" (0.631 lb/in²) what the intermediate pressure is (in drag) at any given transitional point along the parabola using your own chart? Once you begin using your own head instead of data (with no relevance) cut and pasted from other sources, you may reconsider what you claim. In the world of science your claim is only a theory and you were asked to prove it in which you have failed miserably and only replying in gibberish and insults. Hence your claim is just that a "theory".

The person who started this thread has gotten way more than he/she has asked for. I don't believe this forum is about taking and giving jabs regardless of facts or opinions! This person wants to develop a 1000 yard system and has been inundated with nothing to help him or her in there quest. For that, I apologize to the thread author and will back away from this ridicules debate and hope that others can provide some guidance in your 1000 yard quest. Good luck and happy shooting!

Whitlersgoo........

 

[Danny Brooks]

I know it is off topic, but....

... somebody mentioned angel sex. I would like to know more about that.

Danny

 

[whistlersgoo]

... somebody mentioned angel sex. I would like to know more about that.

Danny

Ya, this requires no bickering, math or data (maybe a beer or two)! I am open for a an education on this subject. Perhaps a few photos and even a video??

 

[blacktornado]

blacktornado,

Any long range accuracy program has to include great brass and that's where I start. There are many more good choices available for bore size, barrels, bullets and twist rates than for great brass so what great brass is available to you is the place to start. For the rest of the discussion I'll assume that you can get great brass in any of the possibilities. My choices include a healthy consideration for long barrel life and many available bullet alternatives.

I'm not clear what your anticipated mix of 600 and 1K matches might be but since you are already deep into bench games at short range and presumably possess good gun handling skills and assuming (from the end of your initial post) an emphasis on 1K my advice would be a couple of 300 WSMs with 11" twist barrels for 210 gr bullets, one for light gun and one for heavy.

A 600 yd program is better served with an 8" twist 6 BR. Most 600 yd competitors use one gun for light and heavy.

For someone new to bench games and wanting to shoot both 600 and 1K I would advise a .272 (no turn) neck 6BR for everything (both distances, heavy and light classes).

The next addition to the program might be a 300 WSM light gun for 1K and continuing to use the 6BR for heavy at 1K.

Then add a dedicated 300 WSM heavy gun for 1K and those 600 yd matches when the wind howls.

But if you want to start with one rifle for everything even including F-Class (which you haven't mentioned) I would advise jumping in with a 6BR.

Great brass, great headache free accuracy, great bullets, no brake required so class versatility, long barrel life and easy to shoot (low recoil)

That's my story and I'm stikin' to it.

Greg

Hi Greg, your suggestion is very helpfull.I have to explain something in order to understand better. I'm a strange shooter that likes different things otherwise everything before or after becomes to be boring. I'm the 2009 Italian Champion in Original Muzzle Loading rifle(1866!! .45 cal.) at 100 metres and at 300 metres and I'm 2009 Italian Champion Heavy Varmint Benchrest (6PPC) at 100 m with a rifle made by myself with a carbon fibre stock(I made the plug.the mould and laminated on vacuum bagging),barrel block,alluminium action with right bolt,left port and drop port all ceramic coated with the bolt made 80% of the lenght in alluminium with ceramic coat and the 3 lugs head made in 17 4 PH. The barrel is an Hart 6 grooves, 263 neck and Leupold with Buky's system.It is like I like to race with a Bugatti and with the actual Formula one searching always new challenge applying my method in order to arrive to win.Since last year there is a continuous interest on long distance matches. We have one range (it is not really a range but it is a snow ski racecourse in winter) where we can shoot at 600 Yards and just a couple of matches a year at 1000 yards (You can't do some test because they are not normally open but they are open only for the event). At the moment there are only two classes: one is Hunter class an the other is Open class. I'm interested on the open one where everything is admitted at the moment.I'm pretty confident (we are always far behind USA) we will follow the American rules as soon as the interst is growing. That's why I want to follow these rules since the beginning. I don't want to invest money in something that becomes out of rules quickly.I own a Palma match rifle made by Swiss Grunig&Elmiger 6 BR and I've installed a March 10-60x52 scope just to make some test at 600 Yards in March but I'm study to make a proper long distance rifle using the American experience. I started with the 7WSM or 7SAUM idea but after results examination in NBRSA,IBS and Williamson in addition to barrel life I'm oriented to 300 WSM, Krieger 1,45'' Straight contour,1:10 twist, Bat action (RBLP but I don't know if M type or 3L type and if round or multiflat shape), barrel block and a heavy stock. I would like to use Berger 210 VLD (I have to finalise the reamer) and Norma cases. You are right when you say we have not to consider the caliber by its own but in relation on what you are able to find as parts. This is much more important here in Italy because we don't have all the variety of bullets, cases, powder you have in USA. It will be quite difficult for me to find the H4350 powder even if I will find it at the end. Your suggestion is very clear and exactly what I expected.
Thank you.
GFZ

 

[Lynn]

Alinwa
We had Dean Michaelis and a nut job from Southern,California come on the Biggerhammer board and try and promote the 408 round for several years now unsucessfully.
There biggest problem is they want to give you lots of data and science on why there round is superior but when invited to a match to prove it they never show up.
To make matters worse they always claim it will outshoot the 50bmg and when pressed for the data/science behind there false/misleading claims they give you some data on a low bc tracer round that scrubs off weight as it travels down range.
Several years back they had the opportunity when there brass was decent to develop there "system" but they went the propietary route and when the military laughed in there faces they were toast.It appears they are now starting all over with new money(P.T.Barnum comes to mind)and trying to convince the 18-23 year old crowd of this marvelous tactical/sniper 2187 yard system that outguns everything under ther sun.
They generaly go away when I show them there own data but atleast this guy wanted us to get barrel data from our manufacture.I expect him to now tell us how the lands and grooves affect the laminar airflow over there patented balanced flight bullet.
These types of discussions can be quickly solved in my opinion.
First bring your stuff to a match and show us the groups your system makes.
Second bring your balanced flight bullets to a match and show us how much better they shoot than conventional bullets.

Danny Brooks
I would imagine Angel Sex only happens in heaven but it might be something to look faorward too.

Original Poster
My bad

Waterboy

 

[Danny Brooks]

Angel sex...

... what if you think she is an angel now?

 

[Danny Brooks]

Also on the topic...

... we need to stop bickering on the different subject that went way off course of the original question.

The debate over the 408 & 50 BMG should go else where as I have been against the 408 coming into IBS matches for sometime. There is a decimal point in front of the 40 in the rules section for a reason. I know, because I checked with the man who wrote the rules originally.
I also don't want them in the game because of the interference that would occur to the other shooters when someone builds a light gun with a brake of course. Think what the muzzle blast is going to do to the shooters on the next two benches on either side. I have experienced more that enough from 300 Ackleys, burning 80+ grains of powder. Just think what something that burns 130 grains is gonna do.

I was at the actual meeting that it was somewhat approved, but it was never put in the rule book. I happy with that, but I am honest about it. I don't fear their competiveness, as I have never seen one shoot very well. I recall a 300 WSM beating a couple of them in a 1 mile match a few years back.

My 2 cents worth as they say,
Danny