Best caliber for 1000 yards

Too many variables?

I'm new to this forum (Hello everybody) but as far as CS, BR and standing tac, I've been yanking triggers and playing tunes on paper and steel for over 30 years. I have been lurking around this forum for some time now and felt compelled to jump in on this one. For most of you, what I'm about to blab is common knowledge but for some, here's a bit of info on your best caliber for 1000 BR. Are you ready? The best caliber is: NONE! Unless of course you consider an M1A1/100MM IR guided cannon. Unfortunately most range masters tend to balk at this practice therefore leaving the following. Bullet diameter (caliber) is only a choice based on a desired result which is determined by many factors that effect the bullets performance for a specific use. Hence, selecting a purpose , doing your math and testing are what will ultimately guide you to your answer. To lob a projectile 1000 yards with consistency IS NOT an easy task. Ballistics, weapon characteristics, metallurgy, ROT, powders, primers, cases, to crimp or not to crimp, the environment, etc, etc..are all just to name a few factors in the quest to slap a few tacks consistently out at 1000 yards. We all know that, and for the most part the larger calibers work best for down range work, but unfortunately metallurgy has limited us to very specific limitations with the larger calibers. However, with patience we can work within that limitation should we wish. With all that said, there is still a lot to be said but I hope that you follow the drift and I will leave you with this.

1) You can make almost any caliber from 6.5mm to .50 group well out to your 1000 yards IF you are willing to be patient and develop your loads and invest in a decent weapon that provides the features and characteristics necessary to achieve your objective.

2) Your wife, family and those close to you can tolerate you obsession!

Good luck.......
 
whistlersgoo said:
I'm new to this forum (Hello everybody) but as far as CS, BR and standing tac, I've been yanking triggers and playing tunes on paper and steel for over 30 years. I have been lurking around this forum for some time now and felt compelled to jump in on this one. For most of you, what I'm about to blab is common knowledge but for some, here's a bit of info on your best caliber for 1000 BR. Are you ready? The best caliber is: NONE! Unless of course you consider an M1A1/100MM IR guided cannon. Unfortunately most range masters tend to balk at this practice therefore leaving the following. Bullet diameter (caliber) is only a choice based on a desired result which is determined by many factors that effect the bullets performance for a specific use. Hence, selecting a purpose , doing your math and testing are what will ultimately guide you to your answer. To lob a projectile 1000 yards with consistency IS NOT an easy task. Ballistics, weapon characteristics, metallurgy, ROT, powders, primers, cases, to crimp or not to crimp, the environment, etc, etc..are all just to name a few factors in the quest to slap a few tacks consistently out at 1000 yards. We all know that, and for the most part the larger calibers work best for down range work, but unfortunately metallurgy has limited us to very specific limitations with the larger calibers. However, with patience we can work within that limitation should we wish. With all that said, there is still a lot to be said but I hope that you follow the drift and I will leave you with this.

1) You can make almost any caliber from 6.5mm to .50 group well out to your 1000 yards IF you are willing to be patient and develop your loads and invest in a decent weapon that provides the features and characteristics necessary to achieve your objective.

2) Your wife, family and those close to you can tolerate you obsession!

Good luck.......
Click to expand...

I understand the result depends on many things as caliber,rifle,reloading system and steps,shoooter.Maybe it is more critical in 1000 yards shooting compared to the 100-300 yards but as short range benchrest there is only 6PPC caliber I thought there was one dominant also for long distance. I undertsand that is not because there are more variables but we can say there are some calibers more successful. Those are 6BR,6Dasher,6x47,6,5x284,6,5x47,300WSM,300Ackley,300RUM,300WBY.As far as Europe is concerned we don't have 6 Dasher,300Ackley then we can restrict the choice field.I'm oriented on 300WSM and 6BR.The last one I have already because I used it in palma match. I asked for a quotation for the new rifle and I'm waiting.
Thanks.
GFZ
 
300 wsm

Blacktornado,

Your choice of the 300 WSM is a good one. I have been playing with it since 2001. I found that the best powder to use overall is H4350 with Berger 210 VLDs. Also, I use Federal 210 primers. I have been using Winchester brass, but I am getting ready to try some Remington brass. I can't bring myself to use Norma brass because of the soft primer pocket issues that I have encountered with other cartridges and the issue of being over priced. If RWS made the brass for 300 WSM, I would gladly pay over a $1 a piece.
If you can get the H4350 powder, start with about 59 grains and work up until you have the 210 traveling somewhere in the area of 2950 fps.

Also, if you decide to play with 300 Winchester Magnum, it is also a good choice, as it is very easy to tune. Both will give you a long barrel life. The 7mm choices will be quite a bit shorter.

Good luck & Merry Christmas,

Danny Brooks
 
Question??

Danny Brooks said:
Blacktornado,

Your choice of the 300 WSM is a good one. I have been playing with it since 2001. I found that the best powder to use overall is H4350 with Berger 210 VLDs. Also, I use Federal 210 primers. I have been using Winchester brass, but I am getting ready to try some Remington brass. I can't bring myself to use Norma brass because of the soft primer pocket issues that I have encountered with other cartridges and the issue of being over priced. If RWS made the brass for 300 WSM, I would gladly pay over a $1 a piece.
If you can get the H4350 powder, start with about 59 grains and work up until you have the 210 traveling somewhere in the area of 2950 fps.

Also, if you decide to play with 300 Winchester Magnum, it is also a good choice, as it is very easy to tune. Both will give you a long barrel life. The 7mm choices will be quite a bit shorter.

Good luck & Merry Christmas,

Danny Brooks
Click to expand...

Please take this for what it is intended and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. One thing I want to make clear is that I am NOT a no-it-all and can take a lesson just as easy as giving one. O.K. and with that said, Danny, have you ever put 2 of the same guns (even one built right after the other) to test? I have, and all though they were built with the same metal (s) and are for the most part 1 in 1, they both desired a different dinner! In that I found one of them liked reloader 15 while the other preferred Varget under the same conditions and range. Yeh, you say to yourself "what the----" is that all about but is goes to show that even the slightest manufacturing intolerance can drastically effect what are supposed to be twins. I have (7) .308's (non NATO) from AI/Bat11 to my new Savage Bas 10 and every one of them enjoys a different meal from slight to drastic. So with that said, how can you propose load data? Again, PLEASE take this for what it is: (I'm not trying to be a smart a$$)! I have always treated all my guns as individuals and their appetite for loads have always determined there personality from one to the other, therefore I never give load advice with the exception to saying "get your book do your research and have fun". Perhaps I'm making something more complicated than it has to be?..I'll button up now!

Happy shooting......
 
whistlersgoo said:
Please take this for what it is intended and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. One thing I want to make clear is that I am NOT a no-it-all and can take a lesson just as easy as giving one. O.K. and with that said, Danny, have you ever put 2 of the same guns (even one built right after the other) to test? I have, and all though they were built with the same metal (s) and are for the most part 1 in 1, they both desired a different dinner! In that I found one of them liked reloader 15 while the other preferred Varget under the same conditions and range. Yeh, you say to yourself "what the----" is that all about but is goes to show that even the slightest manufacturing intolerance can drastically effect what are supposed to be twins. I have (7) .308's (non NATO) from AI/Bat11 to my new Savage Bas 10 and every one of them enjoys a different meal from slight to drastic. So with that said, how can you propose load data? Again, PLEASE take this for what it is: (I'm not trying to be a smart a$$)! I have always treated all my guns as individuals and their appetite for loads have always determined there personality from one to the other, therefore I never give load advice with the exception to saying "get your book do your research and have fun". Perhaps I'm making something more complicated than it has to be?..I'll button up now!

Happy shooting......
Click to expand...


I think you CAN give load advice based on expiereance. If every gun is differant, how can you explain the short range benchrest community. They pretty much all shoot PPC's.....many thousands of them....and, for the most part, they all shoot 2 or three different powders....all within a few 1/10's of a grain, and all roughly at the same speed, with roughly the same weight of bullet.............................See my point. If this was short range BR and someone new wanted advice on caliber/load info.....what do you think he would hear? PPC/xx.x gr H322/Fed 205M/ect..ect...ect....Or whatever they are shooting. I am not a short range br guy, so I am not up on exactly what they use.

Obviously there would need to be some tweaking to get dialed in, but the general load info is probably going to be correct and get you close. If Mr Brooks sugjests a load for and recomends the use of the WSM, I am going to listen. :D :D

Just my .02...
Tod
 
Alrighty then........

Tod Soeby said:
I think you CAN give load advice based on expiereance. If every gun is differant, how can you explain the short range benchrest community. They pretty much all shoot PPC's.....many thousands of them....and, for the most part, they all shoot 2 or three different powders....all within a few 1/10's of a grain, and all roughly at the same speed, with roughly the same weight of bullet.............................See my point. If this was short range BR and someone new wanted advice on caliber/load info.....what do you think he would hear? PPC/xx.x gr H322/Fed 205M/ect..ect...ect....Or whatever they are shooting. I am not a short range br guy, so I am not up on exactly what they use.

Obviously there would need to be some tweaking to get dialed in, but the general load info is probably going to be correct and get you close. If Mr Brooks sugjests a load for and recomends the use of the WSM, I am going to listen. :D :D

Just my .02...
Tod
Click to expand...

Short range BR is as you said a whole different game and not to offend the short range guys but the facts are and always have been in their favor in that, the science of ballistics stops at the target and the further away it is, the more complicated it becomes (simply by additional variables, fixed and non-fixed). Many factors can be skimmed and in some cases even dropped in short range BR because down range physics do not apply. Hence, greater consistency and the proof is in your own paper. On an average day would you group better at 250 yards or 1000 yards? We both know the answer to this but I hope it will explain when you asked me "how can you explain the short range benchrest community. They pretty much all shoot PPC's.....many thousands of them". I do appreciate your educated reply (very refreshing from some of the other boards I've visited) and your recommended load as being a "starter" is understood and I hope it helps the inquiry to get started. Nice to converse with an educated person.

Merry Christmas....
TK
 
To tie this back to the original question:

"Caliber" is a word used to describe the diameter -- the bullet, the barrel, whatever. Practically speaking, choice of caliber is influenced by bullet availability. So first question is, can you get good long-range bullets in such & such a caliber? Second question is, are their enough choices so that if bullet X doesn't work in your rifle, do you have options?

Historically, the caliber with the greatest bullet choices was .30. When I started long-range benchrest, 6mm bullets (in the States) were limited to the 107 Sierra and the 105 Berger. A very few people shot 6mms -- Bill Shehane being the most obvious. Of course, there are now many more good 6mm bullets to pick from.

"Chambering" is a word used to specify just that, the chamber in the barrel. Usually we just mean the cartridge case, but if someone wants to quibble & say it includes throat angle, freebore, etc, I won't argue.

OK, there are dominant calibers in short range -- 6mm for group, .308 for score. Moreover, there are also dominant chamberings: the PPC for 6mm and the .30 BR for .308.

There probably is a dominant caliber in 1,000 yard benchrest, the .308. But the 6mm is real close behind -- so close that "dominant" is likely a only a factor of number used. I doubt there is a dominant chambering, unless you'll allow "some variant" of the .300 Ackley (.300 Weatherby case) and "some variant" of the 6BR case.

The biggest difference between 1,000 yard and point-blank benchrest is simply that you cannot see bullet holes in the target at 1,000 yards. At 1,000 yards, a record shot is not also a sighter, as it is at short range. (Yes I know in highpower the target is pulled and each shot marked; "each shot is a sighter." But at the expense of time, you can't shoot 10 shots in 30 seconds in highpower.)

The second biggest difference is that at short range, everybody shoots about the same barrel and bullet configuration. When the 21.75-inch barrel became the darling, guess what? Every one of those suckers started out as a HV blank, 1.250 the chamber end & straight for for 5 inches, then a specified taper to the muzzle at 29 inches, etc. etc. What part of the barrel, the barrel *dimensions* you actually used was determined by making weight. Until 1995 or so, stocks weighed about the same, the only scope was there 36 Leupold -- i.e., everybody's barrel was cut just about the same. Bullets had a wild swing of 66 grains to 68 grains.

No wonder that what worked in one would work in another! To be radical in short range, you might use a 13.5 twist barrel rather than a 14-twist barrel, or use a throat half-cone angel of 2 degrees or .75 degrees rather than 1.5 degrees.

Long range benchrest isn't like that.

As to the physics, I always remember that the NBRSA heavy-gun, single-group record (Dave Tooley) , the IBS heavy-gun, single-group record (Joel Pendergraft), and several Austrailian records, both group & agg (Jeff Rogers), are held by people shooting the BIB 187-grain flatbase bullet. That bullet has a calculated BC of .540, a real-world, doplar-radar measured B.C of .520. Nothing spectacular about that B.C. And if you say "Oh, only single group," check out Joel Pendergraft's or Jeff Rodger's yearly aggregates. You could check Tooley too, but he shoots so many different things it's a rare year when he makes 6 matches. As in short range, bullet consistency is the key factor.

Aside from those factors, I don't think long-range is all that different. Yes, one barrel might prefer VV N-540, one Rel-22, another Rel-25 -- or if you want a single-base powder, VV N-165 or H4831. Those are hardly radically different powders. About like H322, VV N-133, and surplus 8208 for the PPC, or VV N-130 or H4198 for the .30 BR. For any given barrel/bullet combination, one will occasionally work better than another. And don't forget that in short range, a fair number of people use 1 or 2 bullets and one powder. If a barrel won't shoot with those, they junk the barrel & get another. On balance, almost as cheap as going on a hunt for the perfect bullet/powder combination for a barrel, and a hell of a lot faster way to solve the problem.

FWIW
 
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I can't bring myself to use Norma brass because of the soft primer pocket issues that I have encountered with other cartridges and the issue of being over priced.

Danny
I have been saying the same exact thing and catching Hell for it for years.:rolleyes:

What we need for 1,000 yard shooting is a carbide tool that tips our bullet to a nice smooth hemispherical shape without any burrs.I have been preparing bullets for next year and my 105's are running 1.216 - 1.252 inches in length and some of the burrs on them you could skin a water buffalo with.
If anybody knows anyone making such a tool please let me know.I am not after a Meplat trimmer but a tool for removing the burr and uniforming the tip all in one.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
lynn

FWIW, i know Kevin Cram calls his a meplat uniforming tool but he explains its burr removing function clearly on the webpage at Montour County Rifles. also 6 BR did an article on his uniformer. this may be really close to what you are looking for.
i apoligize for assisting in hijacking anothers thread but at times proper tooling is hard to purchase. unless your a machinist you are lacking in your ability to compete.
http://www.montourcountyrifles.com/
best of the season to all, Fred
 
whistlersgoo said:
Please take this for what it is intended and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. One thing I want to make clear is that I am NOT a no-it-all and can take a lesson just as easy as giving one. O.K. and with that said, Danny, have you ever put 2 of the same guns (even one built right after the other) to test? I have, and all though they were built with the same metal (s) and are for the most part 1 in 1, they both desired a different dinner! In that I found one of them liked reloader 15 while the other preferred Varget under the same conditions and range. Yeh, you say to yourself "what the----" is that all about but is goes to show that even the slightest manufacturing intolerance can drastically effect what are supposed to be twins. I have (7) .308's (non NATO) from AI/Bat11 to my new Savage Bas 10 and every one of them enjoys a different meal from slight to drastic. So with that said, how can you propose load data? Again, PLEASE take this for what it is: (I'm not trying to be a smart a$$)! I have always treated all my guns as individuals and their appetite for loads have always determined there personality from one to the other, therefore I never give load advice with the exception to saying "get your book do your research and have fun". Perhaps I'm making something more complicated than it has to be?..I'll button up now!

Happy shooting......
Click to expand...

I agree each barrel want different meal from a similar one but it doesn't mean nobody has to say his own experience. What I'm tryng to say that it is appreciated everyone is showing his own experience, No one pretend it is treated as the HolyBible but just as an experience.If you have a certain number of experiences you can find a better way of experimentation for your specific rifle. No one can be blamed giving us his own experience.
Bye.
GFZ
 
Yep...

blacktornado said:
I agree each barrel want different meal from a similar one but it doesn't mean nobody has to say his own experience. What I'm tryng to say that it is appreciated everyone is showing his own experience, No one pretend it is treated as the HolyBible but just as an experience.If you have a certain number of experiences you can find a better way of experimentation for your specific rifle. No one can be blamed giving us his own experience.
Bye.
GFZ
Click to expand...

I do agree otherwise this forum would be worthless other than to exist. Here comes the but...."but" a standard can be developed based on math and physics and that is where I am coming from. Perhaps I'm just a bit over the edge (here it comes again) "but" to me, load development can be a fixed and non-variable (less the atmosphere) endeavor without the guess-work!? So to me there is no starting point but there is an ending point in which I call maximum refinement. It's a long process (in which I enjoy) but all variables have been tested i.e., powders, primers, crimping, sealing, seating etc., etc. After a few hundred rounds and 3 or 4 trips to the range a load can be refined for a specific purpose. i.e. LRBR / SRBR / specific game (using gel for shock evaluation) etc. Where am I going with all this? I have no idea.:eek: However, I would be happy to share my formulas with anyone in hopes it can help them in any way!
 
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Slowshot That's the discipline I shoot, now I want to try the smaller calibers. So keep talking so I can try my hand at the 300 WSM..........Mark
 
I didn't realize anyone on this forum was a 50 BMG shooter. I got to shoot one once and my heart is still racing. Unfortunately, I can't afford the tab.
 
Slowsot
If I'm not mistaken Jet Doc is actually Mark Avakian a quite accomplised 50 bmg shooter that I have on video tape from several years ago in Reno.I am guessing Randy Dierks is his gunsmith and Randy was instrumental in starting the NBRSA 1,000 yard discipline along with his wife Paula Dierks,Skip Talbot and Lou Murdica.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
408 Cheytac (Windrunner)

Ok then how about a 408 Cheytac, or the full meal deal I found on the Sniper's Hide website:

For Sale is my EDM Arms Windrunner M98
It has just over 200 down the .338 lapua barrel. This rifle has an 8 round mag.
It comes with a .408 cheytac barrell and bolt as well as a 50 BMG Barrel and bolt. The 408 and 50 were just made for this rifle. The rifle is no longer made. EDM produces the 338 lapua model, which is not the same.
The other two bolts not pictured are in the case
Included:
EDM Arms M98 in .338 lapua ($7500) Appox. 200 rds.
.408 cheytac bolt and barrel ($2000) 0 rds.
50 BMG barrel and bolt ($2000) 0 rds.
Nightforce 5.5-22x56 ($1550) New
EDM Arms hardcase ($375)
.338 lapua magazine
Carry strap

According to the ad, a mere $10,000 takes it all. Quite a deal huh!
 
Slowshhot
Here is a photo of Mark and a pair of his custom 50's.I don't know why the picture is so small.
Waterboy
 
Lynn I can run but I can't hide, how are you doing? I thought I would try something else but before Randy builds my rifle I wanted to find the most competitive caliber and there seems to be a wealth of knowledge here. Can't wait to start shooting something different........................................Mark
 
Whistlersgoo,

I too have had different guns of the same cartridge and had to use different powders to get desired results. I have always used H4831 in my 300 Win Mags, except for one that I ended up selling to a friend. That one preferred N560. He wore the Hart barrel out on that one with that load. If I remember correctly, after the new barrel was installed, he switched H4831.

Most of the successful shooters that I know of are using H4350 in their 300 WSMs. My LG uses 63.0 grains, while the afore mentioned HG used 62.5 grains. It has a new barrel on it now, so I don't know what it will like, until I get time to to play with it. I hope to be shooting it quite a bit this year as it only weighs about 40 lbs., compared to my 300 Win Mag, which tops the scales at over 90 lbs.
But I know that I will be following my own instructions, starting at about 59 grains and working up with H4350. When it shoots a small one hole group above 2900 FPS, then I will go to shoot it at 500, 600, or 1000 to see what the end results are.

Tod,

Thank you for the compliment, but don't make me out to be the goto guy to answer these questions. There are plenty of shooters on this forum that can give qualified advice, which about 97.3% of it is.
By the way, how is your 300 WSM coming along?

Danny
 
300 wsm

I agree with Danny. A lot of people are shooting the wsm and most are shooting H4350 and Bergers. I shoot 63.25 grains in my light gun and 61.5 grains in my heavy gun. Works well for me. Matt Kline
 
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