Best caliber for 1000 yards

[blacktornado]

I do agree otherwise this forum would be worthless other than to exist. Here comes the but...."but" a standard can be developed based on math and physics and that is where I am coming from. Perhaps I'm just a bit over the edge (here it comes again) "but" to me, load development can be a fixed and non-variable (less the atmosphere) endeavor without the guess-work!? So to me there is no starting point but there is an ending point in which I call maximum refinement. It's a long process (in which I enjoy) but all variables have been tested i.e., powders, primers, crimping, sealing, seating etc., etc. After a few hundred rounds and 3 or 4 trips to the range a load can be refined for a specific purpose. i.e. LRBR / SRBR / specific game (using gel for shock evaluation) etc. Where am I going with all this? I have no idea. However, I would be happy to share my formulas with anyone in hopes it can help them in any way!

I Understand very well what you are saying. We wish to treat item like this with math method (I'm a mechanical engineer) but with rifle you have just to try.Nothing to do with math but only with experience. That's why I'm asking for experiences . Now I know I will start with Berger 210 VLD with H4350 at 59,5 grains going up taking a look to the bullet speed.
Thnaks
GFZ

 

[blacktornado]

Whistlersgoo,

I too have had different guns of the same cartridge and had to use different powders to get desired results. I have always used H4831 in my 300 Win Mags, except for one that I ended up selling to a friend. That one preferred N560. He wore the Hart barrel out on that one with that load. If I remember correctly, after the new barrel was installed, he switched H4831.

Most of the successful shooters that I know of are using H4350 in their 300 WSMs. My LG uses 63.0 grains, while the afore mentioned HG used 62.5 grains. It has a new barrel on it now, so I don't know what it will like, until I get time to to play with it. I hope to be shooting it quite a bit this year as it only weighs about 40 lbs., compared to my 300 Win Mag, which tops the scales at over 90 lbs.
But I know that I will be following my own instructions, starting at about 59 grains and working up with H4350. When it shoots a small one hole group above 2900 FPS, then I will go to shoot it at 500, 600, or 1000 to see what the end results are.

Tod,

Thank you for the compliment, but don't make me out to be the goto guy to answer these questions. There are plenty of shooters on this forum that can give qualified advice, which about 97.3% of it is.
By the way, how is your 300 WSM coming along?

Danny

Hi Danny, Your experience is very clear and very helpfull.
Thanks
GFZ

 

[Tod Soeby]

Whistlersgoo,


Tod,

Thank you for the compliment, but don't make me out to be the goto guy to answer these questions. There are plenty of shooters on this forum that can give qualified advice, which about 97.3% of it is.
By the way, how is your 300 WSM coming along?

Danny

I just got the bbl back on Tuesday. I had the throat lenghtend considerably. OAL is about 3.12. Everyone seems to like to use the base to ogive, so if I did the math right, using the Sinclare Nut, the math is..3.434 minus .995(thickness of the nut)= 2.439 base to ogive. No clue how that measures up with other peoples setup. I know that the nut is not the optimal tool, but it is all that I have at the moment.
I pulled the bullets on all of the stuff I had loaded, Re checked the charge weight (61.0 - 63G in 1/2 gr incraments...it was spot on) and loaded a few more starting at 59G. We are having a bit of bad weather, so I may not get to shoot it for a few days. Usualy it dips WAY below zero after a "snow event".

My smith scoped the bbl and said it looked very good, so hopefully it will work out for me. Spencer has my new blank, he is just waiting on me to make up my mind on weather or not I Stick with the WSM or send him my 300 WBY reamer. I would like to get some trigger time with it. I am little nervous about it after blowing primers at 61g, not to mention the whole Dasher thing. Maybe I should just stick with what I know (aint much these days ) which is the WBY.

Tod

 

[whistlersgoo]

The .50BMG is not bad "but":

If you really want to try extreme long range shooting, check out a 50 cal BMG.

After putting about 100 rounds through my new Cheytac M200/408 with superior downrange ballistics (after 700 yards) than the .50 I'll stick with the 408. Insistently, anyone wishing to jump in the ultra long range game, I can recommend this weapon system with no reservations. A little price'e for the complete system (hand-held comp, wind/weather gauge, M1/2 LP scope, 100 round barrel break in and finally an aluminum case) about $13,500 after shipping and CA DROS but the ball stops here in just about every account (supersonic delivery, accuracy, energy, recoil etc.) Load development is a snap due to the manufactures highly consistent tolerance from barrel to barrel. This weapon system is a game changer and if any of you get the opportunity to try one, do it, you'll have to have one!

 

[whistlersgoo]

I Understand very well what you are saying. We wish to treat item like this with math method (I'm a mechanical engineer) but with rifle you have just to try.Nothing to do with math but only with experience. That's why I'm asking for experiences . Now I know I will start with Berger 210 VLD with H4350 at 59,5 grains going up taking a look to the bullet speed.
Thnaks
GFZ

Hello there, I too am an engineer or rather a professor (Masters in Atomic energy and my PhD in Physics) Unfortunately my papers were in qt/physics and the absolute laws of motion and not ballistics. My papers were published in 1979 and are available at The University Of Maryland (campus City Dept. Of Physical Sciences) my question is: Why would you load the starting points rather than "1 off" max" using several powders to eliminate the lower velocities that are not desired with LRBR? Wouldn't you agree that based on the objective your test criteria does not apply since we are looking for higher velocities to avoid "parabola distortion" down range producing only more gravitation properties we can avoid with the higher velocities? Hence the test criteria should be limited to (1) Ignition (primers) (2) Burn rate (powder selection/powder mixing) (3) Projectile stabilization (c.o.e/PbR2) and of course impact results reflecting the above in a consistent strike point with effective energy based on the final t.o.t (time of flight)?

Just a thought...

 

[Lynn]

Jet Doc
Mark I am doing well and would advise you to see what the guys are using in your neck of the woods.I believe Charles Greer is in your home turf and is doing real well with a 300 Ackley in heavvygun and a 300 WSM in lightgun.Myself I am using a 300 Ackley in heavygun and a 6Dasher or 6BR in lightgun when its not blowing and a 6mm-06 when it is.The larger case gives me 400 fps more velocity for windy days and I still get pushed alot. I had a 300 WSM built for a heavygun but I am only using it at 600 yards right now.With the heavier bullets the velocity isn't there so when the wind is blowing left and right my groups open up to much to be competitive against the larger cases.
If you ask Randy he'll probaly tell you to use a 6-284 because he held the 12 target group agg record for around 4 years with that combo.Mine doesn't shoot well at 3425 only 3200 so I parked it in the closet.
You need something with good strong brass and a healthy supply of good bulets.Once you have that the rest is easy.
Sacramento is hosting the NBRSA 600 and 1,000 Yard Nationals this year and you should try and make both matches if you can.Lots of interesting ideas at the bigger matches.
Lynn

 

[Joe Salt]

Whistergoo

I have a High School Education but I would like to know how small a 10 shot group your 408 shoots at a 1000 yards. I've seen them come and I've seen them go, but if you're not shooting under 6'' all the math and science in the world won't make it shoot smaller. You do have one part right PROJECTILE STABILIZATION. Not higher velocities.

Joe Salt

 

[a.JR]

Guys, Am i reading this right, that the 408 is legal in IBS/ NBRSA/ Williamsport now .. I was under the impression that .400 was the biggest.. We have in Australia tried to stay as close to the rules used in the US as possibile .. Have not seen anything in the big stuff shoot worth a hoot anyhow ,just interested if the goal posts have shifted..JR..Jeff Rigers

 

[whistlersgoo]

I have a High School Education but I would like to know how small a 10 shot group your 408 shoots at a 1000 yards. I've seen them come and I've seen them go, but if you're not shooting under 6'' all the math and science in the world won't make it shoot smaller. You do have one part right PROJECTILE STABILIZATION. Not higher velocities.

Joe Salt

Hi there,

Not sure what you mean by "seen them come and seen them go" are you referring to the round?, The group or the M200 itself? Please remember that all my blabbing, input, output etc., has been on basic development for a specific purpose and how to avoid variables by refining your own methods while avoiding redundant and unnecessary testing. This of course applies to a projectile for (as mentioned above) a very specific purpose and the objective that ensues therein to the final refinement. I think some around here perhaps are taking me the wrong way, I don't want to criticize anyone for what they have been doing for years and the knowledge they have taken from it, I am simply pointing out that variables are inherit in ballistics. Hence, eliminating those variables with basic science will reduce error and avoid unnecessary time spent. As to your question or rather statement and if I understand it correctly, I have calibrated my M200 and refined the cartridges to group out at 1600 yards not 1000 yards. With atmospheric conditions cooperating the group at this range is within and exceeds MI-1 Spec or to keep it straight, if you're on the other end it's best not to turn your head to the side. For long range 800 to 1000 yards I use an AI AW .338 Lapua Mag. It too exceeds the MI-1 Spec and beats your 6" group. I used to use the same rifle AI AW in .308 for 400 to 800 yard work but believe it or not, My new Savage BAS 10 groups better when all is equal. I have only on beef with your statement "all the math in the world won't make it shoot smaller". Assuming the barrel it's metal (cellular and particle) make up are correct and the machining tolerances are tight so as to say "we have a capable instrument" then to say math and or science will not help gain a tighter group is like saying math won't help you to determine how much concrete you will need to pour your 4" driveway! And by the way I NEVER EVER hold a lack of higher education against anyone for any reason! You don't have to be a college professor to figure out life's questions. Just ask Bill Gates or several hundred other intelligent figures with no more than a High School education!

 

[Lynn]

aJR
The 408 is not legal in NBRSA Matches or FCSA Matches so it gets very little use on paper targets.Dean Michaelis who worked with Warren Jensen on the 408 round admitted several years ago that alot of the claims made for the round were all smoke and mirrors.I don't see many propietary rounds doing much of anything.
On the other hand the 50 bmg is a shooter.
Lynn aka Waterboy

 

[Lynn]

Whistlegoo
What Joe means is he has seen the 408 round shot and it never seems to win anything.You need a rifle shooting 10 shot groups under 6 inches in order to win and the 408 isn't producing those groups when it shows up on match day.
Lynn aka Waterboy

 

[dk hunt 14]

300wsm

Whistlersgoo, How do you start 1 grain under max if you don't know max. I have seen some 300 wsms where 60.5 grains are max and some where they could shoot 64 grains and had no pressure. Because of variations in barrels, brands of barrels, and differences in reamers. Velocity isn't where its at, accuracy and bullet stabilzation is more important. Matt Kline

 

[Bnhpr]

Whistlersgoo, How do you start 1 grain under max if you don't know max. I have seen some 300 wsms where 60.5 grains are max and some where they could shoot 64 grains and had no pressure. Because of variations in barrels, brands of barrels, and differences in reamers. Velocity isn't where its at, accuracy and bullet stabilzation is more important. Matt Kline

Matt,

What neck and freebore do you recommend for the 300 wsm?

I have a 12 twist Broughton barrel in the shop. I'm assuming I will be best suited with the 175 grain bullets.

Any lessons learned is appreciated.

Ben

 

[dk hunt 14]

neck

I have .338 neck and i believe most 300wsms that i have seen use the .338 neck. I believe your freebore has to do with what bullet you intend to shoot. I shoot a 10 twist Broughton in heavy and a 11 twist Broughton in light, both with 210 Bergers. Both of these guns shoot really well. The 12 twist that you have will probably not stabilize the 210's. Might shoot the 190's really well. Matt KLine

 

[Joe Salt]

Yes I've seen the big rounds come and go, that is not where it's at. Myself I like the 300 wsm with the 1-10 twist,the kreiger is a great choice, think you can use a variety of bullets. The neck on mine is 338, the throat is 0.5237. I would also like to say that the P.A. club is having two benchrest schools in 2010, first one in May, the second one later in the year. This is to help people who are new to the sport or who want to keep learning. The last schools have been very succesful. The schools go from Friday to Sunday but they could go for a week to be able to discuss all the knowledge the guys who put on the school have.

 

[Bnhpr]

I have .338 neck and i believe most 300wsms that i have seen use the .338 neck. I believe your freebore has to do with what bullet you intend to shoot. I shoot a 10 twist Broughton in heavy and a 11 twist Broughton in light, both with 210 Bergers. Both of these guns shoot really well. The 12 twist that you have will probably not stabilize the 210's. Might shoot the 190's really well. Matt KLine

Thanks Matt,

I'm getting ready to order a reamer, so I will get with PTG and find out what freebore is appropriate with 175 grain SMK's and 190 Gr. VLD's.

I'm glad to hear about a no turn/skim neck. I've been running a .334 neck in short range (30BR and 30x47HBR) and it's labor intensive.

Ben

 

[Charles E]

I'm sure Matt has given you good advice, but I'd not rule out the 210s without testing. The JBM site use to come up with the 210 grain .308 VLD numbers for the bullet. But I just went & looked, and no longer. Unless somebody has the numbers for that bullet, we'd be guestimating.

That said, I've shot Brady Knight's 200 grain, and someone else's yet-to-be released 210 grain bullets, both on 1.400 jackets. Both were stable in my 12-twist, though I use a slightly larger case -- about like a .308 Norma Mag. Neither of these bullets are VLDs, but with 1.400 jackets, are long bullets.

I'd do as Matt says & set the reamer up for 190 VLDs, but I'd also buy a box of 210s and give them a try. Also, 185s. In some rifles, the 185's outperform the 190s.

All those VLDs. If you want to explore the Sierra line, also give the Sierra 200s a look. Pretty sure they'd be stable in a 12-twist, and are one of the best .308 long-range bullets Sierra makes.

 

[whistlersgoo]

Whistlegoo
What Joe means is he has seen the 408 round shot and it never seems to win anything.You need a rifle shooting 10 shot groups under 6 inches in order to win and the 408 isn't producing those groups when it shows up on match day.
Lynn aka Waterboy

I understand the requirement (10/6) not sure of your range nor am I sure of what system he/she is using. There is only 1 License for OP-OEM production so I can only guess? However I will leave that behind (not important). What is important is who ever is operating the system at these matches needs to go back to Idaho and take the classes. The system is intimidating and requires a very great deal more care than anything most SRBR and LRBR competitors have even come across! With that said, I have seen 11 out 0f 15 clay pigeons vaporized at 800 yards right above my head in the pit! I do not yet have that ability but hope to soon. However, in my opinion a new class needs to be developed "UHPD" (Ultra High Power Division) and allow these ground shakers to go head to head. Remember these guys reach out from 1000 to 2500 yards at supersonic speeds with energy to down an elephant. So perhaps what I'm saying is the intent is in a class itself. Hence, a new category? I would also say that "this discussion forum would not be what it is with the large bore inclusion". Simply due to the day and night differences in all parameters of both systems".

 

[whistlersgoo]

Whistlersgoo, How do you start 1 grain under max if you don't know max. I have seen some 300 wsms where 60.5 grains are max and some where they could shoot 64 grains and had no pressure. Because of variations in barrels, brands of barrels, and differences in reamers. Velocity isn't where its at, accuracy and bullet stabilzation is more important. Matt Kline

Hi there, the answer to your question is simple! You can do 1 of 2 things. 1. Simply contact the manufacturer and ask for a copy of the Y1s0 test data for your rifle's barrel. 2. Have your barrel rock (Rockwell) tested and gather it's metallurgic components (in percentage) and after you have "tabled" your elements, WaLaa! I agree that stabilization is our most important factor, but like a plane, a rocket, a paper airplane and a rock skipping across a pond, velocity (V1/) and aerodynamics are what cause stabilization!

 

[whistlersgoo]

aJR
The 408 is not legal in NBRSA Matches or FCSA Matches so it gets very little use on paper targets.Dean Michaelis who worked with Warren Jensen on the 408 round admitted several years ago that alot of the claims made for the round were all smoke and mirrors.I don't see many propietary rounds doing much of anything.
On the other hand the 50 bmg is a shooter.
Lynn aka Waterboy

You are correct as far as its sanction status. I am not going to criticize anyone and I don't mean ill intent. But the latest Mil Spec( field/bench) on the .408 has beaten the .50BMG in every category with the exception of close range anti-component testing. However past 700 yards, the .408 is greatly superior to the .50BMG in both maintaining its supersonic speed and delivery greater downrange energy +/- Para. After all, that's what the round was developed for LONG RANGE! For it's intended purpose, the .408 has superior ballistic properties, the system is much, MUCH lighter to field carry, is enter-graded as a system "non-NATO". What more can you ask for? A six pack, chips and a burger?