Wayne Shaw
Active member
HA! Very good! Even though our fearless leader called for civility, many simply can't stand it and flame away.
HA! Very good! Even though our fearless leader called for civility, many simply can't stand it and flame away.
Wayne Shaw
Active member
OK, I'll dip my toes into this a bit for kicks. I would like to assume when you buy a custom action for over a grand, you're getting something that is pretty damn good. But, they are still manufactured in "runs" and each and every one isn't hand finished.
I expect to check the lug contact, front action surface in relation to boltway, as well as the threads. Timing I expect to be pretty damn good, or I would send it back. There are quite a few other things that can be checked as well, but I wouldn't expect to yank the bolt handle off and re-solder it.
The ignition part is something I believe to be somewhat of a wild card. I know there is a relationship between firing pin weight to spring strength. Springs are routinely lightened since shooting off bags doesn't quite need a 32 pound spring. But where does the lighter spring to pin weight become counter productive? Here is in my mind the variable. You have to have a good consistent primer hit, strong enough, but not to the point you're rocking the gun in the bags cocking the gun the next time. You don't want too hard of a hit, that just isn't needed and probably causes issues with vibrations. There has been weight(s) added to the firing pin, I assume to increase the inertia hit. Again, there is a relationship between pin weight and spring strength.
I'm sure some tweaking can improve the firing pin/ignition aspect, but how far does it go to make up for a so-so barrel?
Oh, and I sure wouldn't limit this whole discussion to BATs.
I expect to check the lug contact, front action surface in relation to boltway, as well as the threads. Timing I expect to be pretty damn good, or I would send it back. There are quite a few other things that can be checked as well, but I wouldn't expect to yank the bolt handle off and re-solder it.
The ignition part is something I believe to be somewhat of a wild card. I know there is a relationship between firing pin weight to spring strength. Springs are routinely lightened since shooting off bags doesn't quite need a 32 pound spring. But where does the lighter spring to pin weight become counter productive? Here is in my mind the variable. You have to have a good consistent primer hit, strong enough, but not to the point you're rocking the gun in the bags cocking the gun the next time. You don't want too hard of a hit, that just isn't needed and probably causes issues with vibrations. There has been weight(s) added to the firing pin, I assume to increase the inertia hit. Again, there is a relationship between pin weight and spring strength.
I'm sure some tweaking can improve the firing pin/ignition aspect, but how far does it go to make up for a so-so barrel?
Oh, and I sure wouldn't limit this whole discussion to BATs.
huhh??
And Tony (and now Allie) relate to the original post how??
I deal with gunsmiths who DO fix this stuff and they wouldn't ask the question as the op posed it.
And fire control is a whole nuther can a worms.
IMO
And all these digressions are doing nothing to help the op! It is further my opinion that if folks want to discuss ways of tuning up custom actions it should be in a thread other than this one which SHOULD be all directed at answering Mr zini72. It's his thread. Sooo, that said, what do YOU think zini72 should tell his 'smith?
al
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
]
His question was "is the action perfect out of the box, or do I need to do some truing/squaring,thread chasing,etc.?" .
Were that me I'd say why don't you check it and see what you advise.
You see, his gunsmith was smart enough to ask the question. Zini72 was savvy enough to start this thread to get some additional opinions.
Up till now this forum's attitude has been "Oh, that is an advertiser and they are not to be questioned". At least now some of the readers have heard enough to hopefully ask their own questions that are more in depth than just "what is the best bullet for shooting uphill"....
And, no, this is not specifically about Tony, Allie, or BAT!!
His question was "is the action perfect out of the box, or do I need to do some truing/squaring,thread chasing,etc.?" .
Were that me I'd say why don't you check it and see what you advise.
You see, his gunsmith was smart enough to ask the question. Zini72 was savvy enough to start this thread to get some additional opinions.
Up till now this forum's attitude has been "Oh, that is an advertiser and they are not to be questioned". At least now some of the readers have heard enough to hopefully ask their own questions that are more in depth than just "what is the best bullet for shooting uphill"....
And, no, this is not specifically about Tony, Allie, or BAT!!
OK, I'm not a real machinist or gunsmith. Here's my question: As far as I can see, and do, the cost of checking is almost the same as the cost of doing. If it costs $400 to true an action, it costs $350 to check it.
And to paraphrase the question put to Socrates, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" I'm pretty good in my profession, and I make mistakes -- in my business, they're called "printers errors." About 50% of the time, those checking behind me are wrong, there was no error.
The answer to the original poster should be, no, don't check, unless it will be very, very inconvenient to resolve any unlikely problem later. On the other hand, if there is a design issue with a particular model of an action, word will get around.
And to paraphrase the question put to Socrates, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" I'm pretty good in my profession, and I make mistakes -- in my business, they're called "printers errors." About 50% of the time, those checking behind me are wrong, there was no error.
The answer to the original poster should be, no, don't check, unless it will be very, very inconvenient to resolve any unlikely problem later. On the other hand, if there is a design issue with a particular model of an action, word will get around.
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sailhertoo
Guest
Just send both actions to me and I will check them both out with a battery of measurement test and I'll send one back to you.
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NesikaChad
Guest
I'm betting I'm not the only one here puzzled a bit.
In 15 or so years of working inside machine shops I've not once seen/heard of anyone using a mill, lathe, grinder, hammer, or a cold chisel to inspect a part. Big job shops and other manufacturing facilities have dedicated metrology labs with things like CMM's, surface plates, height stands, and gauging.
SO:
Knowing this if I were to bring a rifle into a shop (regardless of reputation) and I was told, encouraged, or even hinted at the idea of having them tear into a brand new piece of high dollar gear on the presumption that it's made wrong, the first thing I'd be looking for is something (anything) that looks like a metrology lab. If I didn't see one I'd hope the dim light in my head would shine bright enough for me to gather my things and politely excuse myself.
Any modern custom action produced in any sort of volume is going to be manufactured on some sort of machining center. Any good custom action is made by folks who are competent at what they do. Considering it's ALL they do I'd like to make the bold assumption they have their poop in a group. BAT Machine is a good company with a reputation for delivering a quality product. I've talked with them and have to think they follow the ideal that if they start making junk it'll only be a matter of time before they are outcasts in the BR/custom rifle world.
Just look what happened to Nesika. (FWIW they are making actions again and they look pretty dern good)
Remember, inspection is only as good as the equipment and skill level of the person performing it.
If there's an issue, send it back to the manufacturer.
Fit a barrel, fit a stock, and go shoot the thing till your trigger finger cramps up.
Good luck.
C
In 15 or so years of working inside machine shops I've not once seen/heard of anyone using a mill, lathe, grinder, hammer, or a cold chisel to inspect a part. Big job shops and other manufacturing facilities have dedicated metrology labs with things like CMM's, surface plates, height stands, and gauging.
SO:
Knowing this if I were to bring a rifle into a shop (regardless of reputation) and I was told, encouraged, or even hinted at the idea of having them tear into a brand new piece of high dollar gear on the presumption that it's made wrong, the first thing I'd be looking for is something (anything) that looks like a metrology lab. If I didn't see one I'd hope the dim light in my head would shine bright enough for me to gather my things and politely excuse myself.
Any modern custom action produced in any sort of volume is going to be manufactured on some sort of machining center. Any good custom action is made by folks who are competent at what they do. Considering it's ALL they do I'd like to make the bold assumption they have their poop in a group. BAT Machine is a good company with a reputation for delivering a quality product. I've talked with them and have to think they follow the ideal that if they start making junk it'll only be a matter of time before they are outcasts in the BR/custom rifle world.
Just look what happened to Nesika. (FWIW they are making actions again and they look pretty dern good)
Remember, inspection is only as good as the equipment and skill level of the person performing it.
If there's an issue, send it back to the manufacturer.
Fit a barrel, fit a stock, and go shoot the thing till your trigger finger cramps up.
Good luck.
C
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Shiraz Balolia
Guest
hahahahaha - well said. Good way to start a Monday morning, by almost falling off the chair laughing.
Oh, and Chad has the equipment and skills to know what he is talking about!
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I will agree with Chad to an extent. But there are a few gunsmiths out there that know what they are doing.
A true story:
I bought a custom action a few years ago, this action was the same model as the other three I shot at the time. When it arrived, the first thing I notice was the bolt handle pointed almost straight down. I called about this and was told that the company/person they outsourced their bolt handles to had apparently changed something. When I asked what they could do about it, I was told that they could replace the bolt handle but it would be exactly like the one I had.
I took the action and hogged the bolt handle cutout to make it fit. I screwed on a known good barrel and off I went. The gun shot very poorly at the supershoot. It just shot ugly groups. I figured it was me so I kept on shooting it. When I got back home and took it out one more time, I realized it wasn't the tune or me, something wasn't right. Then I remembered that when I tightened the barrel down, loosened it and re-tightened, it just didn't feel the same but not enough different to raise an eyebrow. When I took the barrel off, it was obvious that the barrel was only making contact about a third of the way around the face, also, upon further inspection, one bolt lug wasn't really making contact. I called my smith and he stated he had seen a few problems lately and asked for me to send it to him. It turned out the face of the action was out and the firing pin had enough drag in the shroud that he was surprised that it fired everytime.
During our discussion, he had stated that he had seen several actions from this manufacture that were subpar. He had talked to the manufactures owner a short while before that out of courtesy and the owners reply was "There can't be anything wrong, I'm selling all I can make and there winning". The gunsmith replied "Yeah, because we (gunsmiths) are fixing them".
If most want to ASSuME there are not problems with custom made items. Go ahead.
Hovis
A true story:
I bought a custom action a few years ago, this action was the same model as the other three I shot at the time. When it arrived, the first thing I notice was the bolt handle pointed almost straight down. I called about this and was told that the company/person they outsourced their bolt handles to had apparently changed something. When I asked what they could do about it, I was told that they could replace the bolt handle but it would be exactly like the one I had.
I took the action and hogged the bolt handle cutout to make it fit. I screwed on a known good barrel and off I went. The gun shot very poorly at the supershoot. It just shot ugly groups. I figured it was me so I kept on shooting it. When I got back home and took it out one more time, I realized it wasn't the tune or me, something wasn't right. Then I remembered that when I tightened the barrel down, loosened it and re-tightened, it just didn't feel the same but not enough different to raise an eyebrow. When I took the barrel off, it was obvious that the barrel was only making contact about a third of the way around the face, also, upon further inspection, one bolt lug wasn't really making contact. I called my smith and he stated he had seen a few problems lately and asked for me to send it to him. It turned out the face of the action was out and the firing pin had enough drag in the shroud that he was surprised that it fired everytime.
During our discussion, he had stated that he had seen several actions from this manufacture that were subpar. He had talked to the manufactures owner a short while before that out of courtesy and the owners reply was "There can't be anything wrong, I'm selling all I can make and there winning". The gunsmith replied "Yeah, because we (gunsmiths) are fixing them".
If most want to ASSuME there are not problems with custom made items. Go ahead.
Hovis
That's not "a problem"...... that's a catastrophe. Coupled with a remarkable lack of commjunication.
In any event it doesn't fall under the "check the action for runout" category. If we want to start a thread about "How Action Makers Screw Up Their Products And Gunsmiths Fix Them" then again IMO that's for another place and time.
I'm still waiting for someone to describe how to "check out" a BAT! I'm guessing it'll start with making a mandrel onna' lathe......... eh
LOL
al
Wayne Shaw
Active member
I'll also add, that you can measure all day long, but a lapped surface is a lapped surface. It's done to mate two surfaces together after machining. Some examples here are far more drastic than a lapping issue. But a new action can benefit greatly from a good lapping of the surfaces to help the "breaking in".
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Shiraz Balolia
Guest
Zini - come and see me at the 1000 yard line on Wednesday late afternoon in Phoenix and I will be happy to talk to you about BAT actions after we have finished our tryouts.
And - no, do not let your gunsmith, who has never smithed a BAT, try to true it. I would take the advice of some to find a good BR gunsmith who knows not to screw with them. By the way, my gunsmith is Gordy Gritters, well respected long range benchrest gunsmith, who knows what the heck he is doing, and in all the BATS I have, never even suggested that there was anything wrong with a new BAT.
jackie schmidt
New member
Charles Huckeba, who has been known to make a few bullets touch, once told me, "If an action is born "good", it will be a pleasure to own, and will be a winner. If it is born "bad", do what you will, it will always be bad, and be a source of mysery, untill you get rid of it.........jackie
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
...or get it reborn good....i.e.fixed. But according to some of the above posters they are all born perfect!!!
Question from one old machinist to another, Jackie, could you develop a process to check out the trueness of an action?? Of course you could.
Any First Class machinist who couldn't check his own work wouldn't be a Frist Class machinist. Nor would he be a First Class machinist if he could not check someone elses work. Agree or disagree??
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eww1350
Guest
This sounds just like a NEW lathe that I have..."There can't be anything wrong, I'm selling all I can make ".
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4Mesh
Guest
I've got to take Al's side here since he took mine and we seem to be the only ones on the same page. Well, perhaps Chad's in there as well.
Ok, I'm not saying every one is perfect. I'm asking now, what would constitute needing fixed? What will you find, and how would you find it?
Forget about firing pin crap. Ok, on that go fix away. Personally i still think Bat has the nicest system I've seen, but if someone else thinks different, that's ok.
There was talk above about "Truing". What is "Truing" in this context? How are the 'errors' measured? I'll allow that if the error is so big you can see it with the naked eye, that is really bad. I have done this. But not on a BAT.
Al has the idea above about starting by making a plug. I'd accept that this is ok to see if the thing is Good, but not ok to see if it is bad. Within the tolerances I'm guessing people are talking about here(having measured more than one action myself), I just don't see where someone is going to find an error in an engine lathe and then re-cut receiver threads in an engine lathe to "Fix" it. The surface finish of the threads on the plug you make are enough error to invalidate anything but a "this is good" result. Go ahead, make the plug, have it perfect, then tap the jaws of the lathe with a brass tapper and you can forget anything you have. The part is no longer true. The reason they invented the CMM is because lathe chucks weren't close enough. You can come very very close,and you can do very nice work, but beyond fixing really huge errors, I can't see it being done any better the second time around.
Now, if you have a receiver where they made the blank, stood it up in a fixture and thread milled threads in when there was chips in the fixture and the part was bent all over hell, then yes, you can find that with a plug in a lathe. That looks almost like an anchor bolt swinging around in a chuck. People above make it sound like they're looking for aerospace industry tolerances and doing it using measuring equipment that's not capable of measuring that close. Again, remember, we not only want to find an error, we want to fix it. So, what size error are we talking about?
I said above about the taper in the receiver threads, someone please tell me how you can skim them at home and not make a bigger mess than you had to begin with? Or better yet, someone please tell us what is being fixed if this isn't one of the items. And I don't think anyone needs to worry about giving out gunsmithing trade secrets here. At least you're pretty safe with me...
Ok, I'm not saying every one is perfect. I'm asking now, what would constitute needing fixed? What will you find, and how would you find it?
Forget about firing pin crap. Ok, on that go fix away. Personally i still think Bat has the nicest system I've seen, but if someone else thinks different, that's ok.
There was talk above about "Truing". What is "Truing" in this context? How are the 'errors' measured? I'll allow that if the error is so big you can see it with the naked eye, that is really bad. I have done this. But not on a BAT.
Al has the idea above about starting by making a plug. I'd accept that this is ok to see if the thing is Good, but not ok to see if it is bad. Within the tolerances I'm guessing people are talking about here(having measured more than one action myself), I just don't see where someone is going to find an error in an engine lathe and then re-cut receiver threads in an engine lathe to "Fix" it. The surface finish of the threads on the plug you make are enough error to invalidate anything but a "this is good" result. Go ahead, make the plug, have it perfect, then tap the jaws of the lathe with a brass tapper and you can forget anything you have. The part is no longer true. The reason they invented the CMM is because lathe chucks weren't close enough. You can come very very close,and you can do very nice work, but beyond fixing really huge errors, I can't see it being done any better the second time around.
Now, if you have a receiver where they made the blank, stood it up in a fixture and thread milled threads in when there was chips in the fixture and the part was bent all over hell, then yes, you can find that with a plug in a lathe. That looks almost like an anchor bolt swinging around in a chuck. People above make it sound like they're looking for aerospace industry tolerances and doing it using measuring equipment that's not capable of measuring that close. Again, remember, we not only want to find an error, we want to fix it. So, what size error are we talking about?
I said above about the taper in the receiver threads, someone please tell me how you can skim them at home and not make a bigger mess than you had to begin with? Or better yet, someone please tell us what is being fixed if this isn't one of the items. And I don't think anyone needs to worry about giving out gunsmithing trade secrets here. At least you're pretty safe with me...
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NesikaChad
Guest
When inspecting an action I first use a thread gauge to check the pitch diameter of the receiver ring. This can also help to show if there's any taper in the threads. It's a simple GO/NO GO setup. Then a mandrel is inserted that is mounted between a bench center. The action is rotated with an indicator to check for runout on the face of the action. Here's where the lathe would be handy if the bearings are tight. Mounting it in a CAT's head and indicating off a mandrel will be helpful to show any runout/taper in the receiver ring threads. In my case I use my VMC and indicate along the inside of the thread using the Z axis of the machine. My setup doesn't allow the part to move. I'd like to think a CNC mill with box ways moves pretty square to the table. I hope it does anyway!
Bolt fit is pretty much a "feel" kind of thing. That may initially sound half ass, but when you learn to hone a bore this is largely how its done. It's just experience and after awhile it starts to make sense. -just be glad this isn't a IKF Go Kart forum from about 20 years ago, experience is never cheap. . . I could screw up a free lunch back then!
Lap the lugs to look at the surface contact. If it's out, it's out. I don't devote the time to see if it's receiver or bolt. They'll both get a kiss cut just to eliminate later head scratching.
Action screw holes. I bought a set of threaded gauges for this purpose. For the base holes I use gauge pins. If they look like Wyoming ranch fence posts then there's an issue. If they are straight, were good. On that note I also check the center to center distance on the guard screws with threaded insert gauges designed specifically for this purpose.
I devoted a considerable amount of time once contacting a large number of manufacturers of actions, floor metals, and trigger guards to find the "magic number." They ALL vary to some degree. What I consider the baseline value comes from Remington. I was fortunate to speak with one of their engineers. Nesika actions in particular were once plagued with this. Hole locations were all over the place for repeaters. It made fitting various floor metals a real challenge sometimes.
Then it's primary extraction timing, fire control timing, surface finish on high wear/load areas, etc. I also look at the hardness of an external bolt release. It should be SOFTER than the bolt. Otherwise it's just going to beat the snot out of the lug face every time it's cycled.
The boutique actions by and large are quite good. I've found little things I don't agree with from time to time, but that can be summarized as more personal opinion than anything else.
Bolt fit is pretty much a "feel" kind of thing. That may initially sound half ass, but when you learn to hone a bore this is largely how its done. It's just experience and after awhile it starts to make sense. -just be glad this isn't a IKF Go Kart forum from about 20 years ago, experience is never cheap. . .
I could screw up a free lunch back then!Lap the lugs to look at the surface contact. If it's out, it's out. I don't devote the time to see if it's receiver or bolt. They'll both get a kiss cut just to eliminate later head scratching.
Action screw holes. I bought a set of threaded gauges for this purpose. For the base holes I use gauge pins. If they look like Wyoming ranch fence posts then there's an issue. If they are straight, were good. On that note I also check the center to center distance on the guard screws with threaded insert gauges designed specifically for this purpose.
I devoted a considerable amount of time once contacting a large number of manufacturers of actions, floor metals, and trigger guards to find the "magic number." They ALL vary to some degree. What I consider the baseline value comes from Remington. I was fortunate to speak with one of their engineers. Nesika actions in particular were once plagued with this. Hole locations were all over the place for repeaters. It made fitting various floor metals a real challenge sometimes.
Then it's primary extraction timing, fire control timing, surface finish on high wear/load areas, etc. I also look at the hardness of an external bolt release. It should be SOFTER than the bolt. Otherwise it's just going to beat the snot out of the lug face every time it's cycled.
The boutique actions by and large are quite good. I've found little things I don't agree with from time to time, but that can be summarized as more personal opinion than anything else.
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4Mesh
Guest
That's interesting you mention checking the bottom metal holes, but not the receiver face to thread alignment, nor that the threads are concentric to the receiver bore. I'm not sure if you would be assuming these to be correct or if you would consider them insignificant in accuracy terms. Or maybe more difficult to fix than it is worth. I'm not sure. Checking those bottom holes would seem important to me on something like a Remmy where it is so flimsy you can bend it measurably with your fingers. But not on something like most of todays customs where there is a lot of heft to the entire receiver.
Given the title of the thread is "Bat action truing", I was assuming that most folks talking about actions needing fixed meant just that. Major alignment issues (though I do not mean great big errors, just major items like I mention). I would expect a barrel when screwed in to contact the face pretty much all at once. Within about nothing. Not to contact the receiver face on one side first. I'd like the bolt face to be pretty much in the center of the barrel recess. Inline is a plus too!
I'm thinking Bat's bottom holes are gonna pretty much be within most peoples limits of measurement. I can't imagine a receiver spinning on the mandrel during those operations and having several out of alignment. I know I don't check them. As for lug engagement, I allow the break in lube supplied in a BAT to do its thing and have never seen lapping compound to be needed. Perhaps others are finding that but I have my doubts. Even if someone does want to lap them in, I don't consider that "truing".
Above it was mentioned about paying for the inspection and just considering it a cost of shooting well or whatever. I'm paraphrasing. Personally, I think of it the same as I do with extended warranties, except the cost of an extended warranty is usually less than 10% of the cost I paid for an item, usually closer to 5%. Where here, the cost of inspection is closer to 30-40% of the item cost, and I don't think the odds are good of having 1 out of 3 bat's need this sort of work. With that in mind, I would take my chances.
Given the title of the thread is "Bat action truing", I was assuming that most folks talking about actions needing fixed meant just that. Major alignment issues (though I do not mean great big errors, just major items like I mention). I would expect a barrel when screwed in to contact the face pretty much all at once. Within about nothing. Not to contact the receiver face on one side first. I'd like the bolt face to be pretty much in the center of the barrel recess. Inline is a plus too!
I'm thinking Bat's bottom holes are gonna pretty much be within most peoples limits of measurement. I can't imagine a receiver spinning on the mandrel during those operations and having several out of alignment. I know I don't check them. As for lug engagement, I allow the break in lube supplied in a BAT to do its thing and have never seen lapping compound to be needed. Perhaps others are finding that but I have my doubts. Even if someone does want to lap them in, I don't consider that "truing".
Above it was mentioned about paying for the inspection and just considering it a cost of shooting well or whatever. I'm paraphrasing. Personally, I think of it the same as I do with extended warranties, except the cost of an extended warranty is usually less than 10% of the cost I paid for an item, usually closer to 5%. Where here, the cost of inspection is closer to 30-40% of the item cost, and I don't think the odds are good of having 1 out of 3 bat's need this sort of work. With that in mind, I would take my chances.