Barnes Match Bullets

Mike, before I got a little head of steam going...was that to ditch those time honored competitions in favor of a completely new and more militarily compatible game is obsurd! The marksmanship principles than have produced so many of the greatest shooters ever, are as sound as ever and these things learned in this type of competition will produce a more complete and well rounded competitor in all of the shooting skills.
If you need a game that is more in line with the shooting principles that you have learned, then develope the game, promote it and then ask for it to be included.


mike in co said:
i have shot dcm/cmp three position. i have shot 600 any/any. i am familiar with the format and the tools of the trade.
i did not say battle conditions, but shooting positions that are found in battle conditions.
i simply disagree with the basic concept that training with hardback or heavy shooting coats standing has anything to to do with todays military engagement marksmanship. i feel just about the same for sitting.
its my opinion. based on what i have seen ...here and there.....
yes the cmp/dcm was to provide marksmanship training so the when people went into service they were of some use. if the shooting does not apply the the actual use, what value is the training ??.....
you are entitled to your opinion, yours is seriously biased by your long time participation.
as far as you and me having a shoot out , it is not likely. you would probably beat me, i cannot see iron sights. but bring your m4 carbine with an acog to the 1000 yd line and we will talk.
lol
mike in co
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MarkR said:
Mike, before I got a little head of steam going...
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Mark:

He does try one's patients, doesn't he? The only positive side to Mike in Co is he's invaluable to get your bearings. Whatever Mike in Co says is likely wrong. In his own painful way, he performs a service.
 
all the training in the world with a 20" 1/8 built a2 m16 clone shooting 80 grain bullets single loaded has nothing to do with a 16" a4 with a chrome bore and 62gr ammo....the skill is not gonna work..the sights are not the same and the bullet will not be on target............you are stuck in "time honored competiton" past.......change the game, and yes it is a game, to require targets that match the ammo used today....and the rifles used today....move the targets in .....cause even the curret designated marksman 77 otm load will have issues at 600 yds.............
split the comp to 16" carbinre at 100/200/300 and markman rifle at 400? 500??......
yes a great tradition...but its time to move on....
no i'm not goning to be the one,. i'm 62........
mike in co
 
Charles E said:
Mark:

He does try one's patients, doesn't he? The only positive side to Mike in Co is he's invaluable to get your bearings. Whatever Mike in Co says is likely wrong. In his own painful way, he performs a service.
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Charles are you trying to make a pun?
 
I suppose it was pretty tenuous. IIRC, it was a woman who could make a dead man walk, even if it was the military who got 'em dead...

Edit:

I'll try to de better in the future.
 
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I was rather enjoying/learning from the discussion on factory vs custom bullets. Somehow it switched to full combat? Must be a short attention span.

If Eric is still around, I am looking forward to learning more on Berger's new "made for BR" bullets. When can we hear more?
 
Andy,

For the last four years we have been working hard to create a bullet based on a concept developed by our ballistician Bryan Litz. The short version is that Bryan is aware of how a bullets design can be used to offset dispersion creating effects. The challenge is that knowing these effects and how to influence them does not ensure that one specific design works to balance them. Bryan designed three different shapes with which we made three different bullets with each shape. All of these bullets were shot by Lou Murdica in a very deliberate process to determine precisely which shape and bullet worked best to offset the effects. A few weeks ago Bryan completed his analysis of the last of the test data and a clear winner in terms of a bullet that produced the best results by a considerable margin was determined.

We are soon to be making more of the jackets we need to make these bullets. As it turns out, by the time we knew which bullet is the best one we didn't have any jackets to make the bullet. So we are delayed in getting this bullet launched.

One of the things that will come out about with this bullet that may be confusing is that the weight of the bullet will not be fixed. For this to work properly, we must make the bullet with a column of lead that allows it to be balanced (to effect the conditions Bryan designed the bullet to effect). The test bullets were 64.8 grains but depending on the jacket weight this bullet will vary in weight since we will make it to a precise lead column height rather than a specific weight. To be clear, the weight in a given lot will be the same (within acceptable tolerances) but the weight of one lot is likely to be different than another lot by a small amount.

Regards,
Eric
 
Eric, Thanks for the update. Sounds like some very inovative thinking. I will be on the lookout to give them a try.

Andy
 
Greg,

We are developing bullets in 30 cal and 22 cal for benchrest using the same concept. We will need to test these bullets thoroughly as well so don't expect them any time soon.

Regards,
Eric
 
Hi Eric,
Unless I completely misunderstand this entire reason and discussion of this posting, you can verify the effectiveness of your design by having a competent benchrest shooter shoot the bullet in a proven barrel and compare it to a "proven" BR bullet, like a Hottenstein BT. I would shoot your bullet or anyone else's... if it "shoots". It's about consistency, and the ability to tune it to competitively agg.

Lee
 
Eric Stecker said:
Greg,

We are developing bullets in 30 cal and 22 cal for benchrest using the same concept. We will need to test these bullets thoroughly as well so don't expect them any time soon.

Regards,
Eric
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Cool! Thank you for the reply, Eric. I appreciate it and the efforts Berger is putting forth to innovate.

Regards,

Greg J.
 
For what it worth. Eric and Walt Both shot and won many matches using selected lot of Burger bullets.
Maybe the same lots available to us.. Berger bullets are as close as anyone can be to a custom match bullets that,s Hand swaged.
 
Lee Hachigian said:
Hi Eric,
Unless I completely misunderstand this entire reason and discussion of this posting, you can verify the effectiveness of your design by having a competent benchrest shooter shoot the bullet in a proven barrel and compare it to a "proven" BR bullet, like a Hottenstein BT. I would shoot your bullet or anyone else's... if it "shoots". It's about consistency, and the ability to tune it to competitively agg.

Lee
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Yo Lee, did you read Eric's post from above? Here's a snippet from it.... "Bryan designed three different shapes with which we made three different bullets with each shape. All of these bullets were shot by Lou Murdica in a very deliberate process to determine precisely which shape and bullet worked best to offset the effects. A few weeks ago Bryan completed his analysis of the last of the test data and a clear winner in terms of a bullet that produced the best results by a considerable margin was determined." ......

or is Murdica not good enough?

lol

al
 
Thanks Al. YES, Lou qualifies!

What's next.... start selling them and see if they show up on the "Winner's Equipment" list. How do we get our hands on them..., who is selling them?

I'll try them.
Lee
 
When I left the shop yesterday they were preparing to make the first run since the test bullets were made. We will be making an annoucement when these bullets are ready to ship. I expect that to be in the next few weeks.

I am as interested as you are in finding out how these bullets shoot in the BR competition world. Getting Lou involved was a key step in making sure this bullet works as intended. One thing to keep in mind is that we will be thrilled if our bullets shoot as well as the other top custom bullet makers. They make great bullets and we believe we do as well.

The reason why we went to so much effort to make this particular bullet is because I know that our bullets need to shoot better than the other brands to be considered an option in competition BR. In this case, by "better" I mean that this new bullet is designed to be very easy to tune and should shoot very well in many different barrel types, brands and using many different loads.

As a point of reference, I recall a time when Euber made a bullet that seemed to want to shoot well in everything. Our new bullet is deliberately designed to produce the same result as those bullets did years ago. We've been asked many times to "copy" this Euber bullet. Unfortunately, making a precise copy is not possible so instead Bryan sorted out why this bullet worked so well and then created designs that best addressed those conditions.

I'll quickly address the comment made about Walt and I shooting specific lots. I can assure everyone that we shoot the same bullets as we sell. Walt has always had an open invitation to any shooter who is using the same bullet as he is to swap him their box for his and I will honor this arrangement as well. It doesn't matter to us which lot we shoot since they are all made the same.

Regards,
Eric
 
Doug Casner said:
At lake city the match bullets were run on one bullet assembly and there were alot of machines in the bullet area. Like Mike said we bought 175s from Sierra hpbts and loaded them in national match and I think special ball had 175s also. The cases had a cannelure around the case body.I guess to mark em so they werent to be used in combat with the hp 175. The regular match was FMJ. One machine takes alot of variation out of the picture but I just made the cases.
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I shot a lot of your cases thank you for the quality and your service
 
Eric Stecker said:
When I left the shop yesterday they were preparing to make the first run since the test bullets were made. We will be making an annoucement when these bullets are ready to ship. I expect that to be in the next few weeks.

I am as interested as you are in finding out how these bullets shoot in the BR competition world. Getting Lou involved was a key step in making sure this bullet works as intended. One thing to keep in mind is that we will be thrilled if our bullets shoot as well as the other top custom bullet makers. They make great bullets and we believe we do as well.

The reason why we went to so much effort to make this particular bullet is because I know that our bullets need to shoot better than the other brands to be considered an option in competition BR. In this case, by "better" I mean that this new bullet is designed to be very easy to tune and should shoot very well in many different barrel types, brands and using many different loads.

As a point of reference, I recall a time when Euber made a bullet that seemed to want to shoot well in everything. Our new bullet is deliberately designed to produce the same result as those bullets did years ago. We've been asked many times to "copy" this Euber bullet. Unfortunately, making a precise copy is not possible so instead Bryan sorted out why this bullet worked so well and then created designs that best addressed those conditions.

I'll quickly address the comment made about Walt and I shooting specific lots. I can assure everyone that we shoot the same bullets as we sell. Walt has always had an open invitation to any shooter who is using the same bullet as he is to swap him their box for his and I will honor this arrangement as well. It doesn't matter to us which lot we shoot since they are all made the same.

Regards,
Eric
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Please post a new thread when they ship and if possible to whom.
thanks
 
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