Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
Two questions: (1) Why do you think Berger makes a better bullet than Sierra? (2) How do you figure "2 moa for a 10 and one moa for an x"?
Barnes Match Bullets
- Thread starter Bob Brushingham
- Start date
Two questions: (1) Why do you think Berger makes a better bullet than Sierra? (2) How do you figure "2 moa for a 10 and one moa for an x"?
M
mike in co
Guest
from my limited testing of each in MY guns.....that simple.
in sierras defense the us govt has three times selected their bullets for mil use..the 77 otm in 5.56, the 168 smk and the 175 smk in 7.62x51.
aka hunter read the statement...high power match...not benchrest not long range, but cmp/dcm across the course prone/standin/ sitting position shooting. the x is one moa, and the 10 ring is 2 moa..aprox.
mike in co
in sierras defense the us govt has three times selected their bullets for mil use..the 77 otm in 5.56, the 168 smk and the 175 smk in 7.62x51.
aka hunter read the statement...high power match...not benchrest not long range, but cmp/dcm across the course prone/standin/ sitting position shooting. the x is one moa, and the 10 ring is 2 moa..aprox.
mike in co
M
mike in co
Guest
yep to say eric 'WORKS FOR" berger bullets would be an understatement.
mike in co
mike in co
Eric, you need to remember that this is a public forum and not everyone here knows you
Please do us the pleasure, "bulletman" did.....
al
E
eddyverhoeven
Guest
If not so, why can one find up to four (4) different base to ogive dimensions in one (1) and the same bax of 100 Sierra matchking bullets?
Ed
M
MarkR
Guest
Not being a wiseenheimer....but what is your method and tools for measuring b to o?
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
I've never seen a "high power match" target; thanks for the heads-up.
S
spfld
Guest
For me Sierra, Hornady etc do just fine and generate "one-holers" on a fairly regular basis. Iam not a benchrester nor do I own benchrest rifles. I shoot for relaxation and enjoyment. Some thrive on the pursuit of perfection and that's fine. I admit I do not rise to that level.
The cost of these custom bullets would be prohibitive for me to shoot in the quantities I normally use. Bottom line there are far more casual shooters and bullets-for-the-masses are more than adequate.
Were I a benchrester and sunk a boatload of money in my rifle I would most likely also own a high quality bullet making outfit and "roll my own". There's the saying "if you want it done right do it yourself".
The cost of these custom bullets would be prohibitive for me to shoot in the quantities I normally use. Bottom line there are far more casual shooters and bullets-for-the-masses are more than adequate.
Were I a benchrester and sunk a boatload of money in my rifle I would most likely also own a high quality bullet making outfit and "roll my own". There's the saying "if you want it done right do it yourself".
Doug Casner
New member
At lake city the match bullets were run on one bullet assembly and there were alot of machines in the bullet area. Like Mike said we bought 175s from Sierra hpbts and loaded them in national match and I think special ball had 175s also. The cases had a cannelure around the case body.I guess to mark em so they werent to be used in combat with the hp 175. The regular match was FMJ. One machine takes alot of variation out of the picture but I just made the cases.
M
mike in co
Guest
special ball was a mil produced 173 fmj...not in a league with a sierra 175 nor the 168.
so special ball is 173 fmj with 4895 in match cases , m852 is sie 168 mk with 4895 in match cases with the knurl marks just above the base and m118 long range is sie 175 mk with rl15 with a "lr" head stamp.
mike in co
so special ball is 173 fmj with 4895 in match cases , m852 is sie 168 mk with 4895 in match cases with the knurl marks just above the base and m118 long range is sie 175 mk with rl15 with a "lr" head stamp.
mike in co
Eric Stecker
New member
My apologies. I forget also that I have not been on the forums as frequently as I used to be. My name is Eric Stecker and I am the Executive Vice President of Berger Bullets. That title means that I run Berger. I have a group of owners to report to but Berger's success and reputation rides on my shoulders. I am also Walt Berger's grandson-in-law. I started working for Walt in 1990 and except for a brief time away while Berger was under different ownership I've been with Berger for 18 of the last 22 years.
aka Hunter,
I can understand that those who don't shoot Berger's might not understand that there is a difference. One of the greatest challenges we faced when going from "custom" (using our arms) to "factory" (using machines) is that we didn't want to lose those things that are most important in making competition BR quality bullets. It was Walt's greatest concern and frankly the reason why we do things the way we do them. I won't bore you with the details but our operation is much different than the larger brands. Our materials are more expensive and our process is both different and much slower. All of this is meant to make bullets that have what Walt regards as the most important characteristic when it comes to BR quality bullets. Consistency.
I'm not trying to pick on the other brands as I know that they make good bullets also. The difference is in their priorities. Sierra will be open and tell you that their top priority is providing a constant supply of bullets at a reasonable price. Quality is a close second but it is second. Frankly, the fact that this is true AND they make a good bullet is a testament to the fact that they are great bullet makers. They just have a different approach. It is good for the shooting sports when there are options. Not everyone wants to pay Berger prices especially some of those who shoot recreationally. We understand this but hopefully you understand that we are making bullets specifically for those who want the absolute best performance and tightest consistency available. This is not for everyone but those who want it are very happy that it is an available option.
Regards,
Eric
aka Hunter,
I can understand that those who don't shoot Berger's might not understand that there is a difference. One of the greatest challenges we faced when going from "custom" (using our arms) to "factory" (using machines) is that we didn't want to lose those things that are most important in making competition BR quality bullets. It was Walt's greatest concern and frankly the reason why we do things the way we do them. I won't bore you with the details but our operation is much different than the larger brands. Our materials are more expensive and our process is both different and much slower. All of this is meant to make bullets that have what Walt regards as the most important characteristic when it comes to BR quality bullets. Consistency.
I'm not trying to pick on the other brands as I know that they make good bullets also. The difference is in their priorities. Sierra will be open and tell you that their top priority is providing a constant supply of bullets at a reasonable price. Quality is a close second but it is second. Frankly, the fact that this is true AND they make a good bullet is a testament to the fact that they are great bullet makers. They just have a different approach. It is good for the shooting sports when there are options. Not everyone wants to pay Berger prices especially some of those who shoot recreationally. We understand this but hopefully you understand that we are making bullets specifically for those who want the absolute best performance and tightest consistency available. This is not for everyone but those who want it are very happy that it is an available option.
Regards,
Eric
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
Eric, thanks for your insight. As before, I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck; however, I'd like your thoughts on why "brand-name bullets" (including Berger) are not being shot by most of the "big-shot" shooters. As you know, "non-brand-name" bullets were shot by most all of the shooters who finished near the top at the Super Shoot. Why do you suppose those guys aren't using Berger?
Regards,
Hunter
Doug Casner
New member
Heck Mike, You know more about the stuff I used to make than I do. I just ran one operation in the many it took to make the 7.62. You know more about the stuff we ran than most foremans in the 7.62 building. Youve done your homework. Good job, buddy.
Doug -
Mike is very gifted with knowledge as you state.....
Back in 2006, he was answering 1000BR questions I had in regards to the 2006 1000 NBRSA National's at Beyer's. Then when I was in attendance at the event, I found out he was not active to the discipline and had never shot 1000BR.
Regardless, he did seem to have a knowledge, and I did read in 2011 results, that he had finally shot an actual 1000BR event.
Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
Mike is very gifted with knowledge as you state.....
Back in 2006, he was answering 1000BR questions I had in regards to the 2006 1000 NBRSA National's at Beyer's. Then when I was in attendance at the event, I found out he was not active to the discipline and had never shot 1000BR.
Regardless, he did seem to have a knowledge, and I did read in 2011 results, that he had finally shot an actual 1000BR event.
Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
SGJennings
New member
You might want to check out who won the small group at the 2011 Super Shoot. :/
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
If you will read especially the 600 yard (IBS and NBRSA) benchrest equipment lists you will see quite a few winners shoot Bergers.
As to 100/200 yard benchrest (again IBS and NBRSA) many of those are shot with bullets from what I would call "cottage industry" bullet makers. Most of those guys make bullets for theirselves and a few of their friends and are very limited quantity. I guess Bart Sauter (Barts Bullets) and Lowell Hottenstine make and sell enough bullets to be somewhere in between the cottage industry folks and larger quantity specialty bullet makers like Berger, BUT, all this product stream is still much more specialized and quality conscious than the biggies.
A suggestion get yourself some of each and come join us.
Eric Stecker
New member
Hunter,
That is a great question. I'll tell you why I think BR shooters don't use Bergers these days. It used to be that Berger made every eqiupment list. This ended around 2000 after the business was sold. The new owner had a different vision for Berger which included using cheaper materials and focusing on speed over quality.
Fortunately, that owner was not a good businessman and by 2002 he needed to sell or the bank would take everything. By the time the new owners got me involved again and we made things right the damage to our reputation had been done.
Add to the fact that competition BR shooters are among the most critical and discerning rifle shooters and you get to where we are now. Since we are regarded as a factory bullet we aren't measured by shooting as well as other "custom" bullet brands but we rather must shoot clearly better. This is extremely difficult since the other "custom" bullet makers make excellent bullets as well.
The problem we run into is if a shooter has a bad shot with a Berger it is because we are a factory bullet. If they have a bad shot with a "custom" bullet then it could be something else. Keep in mind I am generalizing for the sake of brievity.
Having said all this, we have just recently finished the testing of a new bullet designed specifically for BR. It is my sincere hope that this bullet is given a chance because I know from experience that we are making bullets to the same level of consistency that we made when we were a "custom" shop.
I apologize for spelling errors. I am posting this from my phone. It is amazing what technology can do these days.
Regards,
Eric
That is a great question. I'll tell you why I think BR shooters don't use Bergers these days. It used to be that Berger made every eqiupment list. This ended around 2000 after the business was sold. The new owner had a different vision for Berger which included using cheaper materials and focusing on speed over quality.
Fortunately, that owner was not a good businessman and by 2002 he needed to sell or the bank would take everything. By the time the new owners got me involved again and we made things right the damage to our reputation had been done.
Add to the fact that competition BR shooters are among the most critical and discerning rifle shooters and you get to where we are now. Since we are regarded as a factory bullet we aren't measured by shooting as well as other "custom" bullet brands but we rather must shoot clearly better. This is extremely difficult since the other "custom" bullet makers make excellent bullets as well.
The problem we run into is if a shooter has a bad shot with a Berger it is because we are a factory bullet. If they have a bad shot with a "custom" bullet then it could be something else. Keep in mind I am generalizing for the sake of brievity.
Having said all this, we have just recently finished the testing of a new bullet designed specifically for BR. It is my sincere hope that this bullet is given a chance because I know from experience that we are making bullets to the same level of consistency that we made when we were a "custom" shop.
I apologize for spelling errors. I am posting this from my phone. It is amazing what technology can do these days.
Regards,
Eric
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
I knew that before asking the question. Now what I need to know is whether it's worth spending "custom" dollars to shoot in a factory gun.
SGJennings
New member
Maybe flip the question around: see if you can work up a load that satisfies your accuracy requirement with a bullet whose price doesn't give you heartburn.
Then you're done.
Greg J.
Then you're done.
Greg J.