Barnes Match Bullets

[JerrySharrett]

Now what I need to know is whether it's worth spending "custom" dollars to shoot in a factory gun.

Short answer--no!!
Its kind-of like pouring nitro-methane dragster fuel in your lawn mower. The end result, it is still not a rail dragster, its still a lawn mower!!

 

[Hunter]

Maybe flip the question around: see if you can work up a load that satisfies your accuracy requirement with a bullet whose price doesn't give you heartburn.

The problem is that I'm getting heartburn because I can't out-shoot the other factory shooters who are using Bergers.

 

[Wilbur]

I knew that before asking the question. Now what I need to know is whether it's worth spending "custom" dollars to shoot in a factory gun.

I'll say yes....it is.

 

[Wilbur]

The problem is that I'm getting heartburn because I can't out-shoot the other factory shooters who are using Bergers.

The bullet is not likely the cause of this and neither is your skill. If you're getting beat consistently, take a hard look at your rifle.

 

[mike in co]

the .5 ag'ing ar10 i have is all factory....except the scope. i shoot berger 175 vld's...small group is .338......
i consider them worth the cost in that rifle.
so yes its definitly worth the cost to try them.
mike in co

 

[mike in co]

your are absolutely correct in your statements.
i had not shoot 1000, my experience was 600 yd any/any cmp/dcm type shooting.
so i had a little long range knowledge.
i hope to get more matches in again this year but i work weekends ......
lets hope for the best.
sure wish we had got the nationals.
thanks for the kind words.

mike in co

Doug -

Mike is very gifted with knowledge as you state.....
Back in 2006, he was answering 1000BR questions I had in regards to the 2006 1000 NBRSA National's at Beyer's. Then when I was in attendance at the event, I found out he was not active to the discipline and had never shot 1000BR.
Regardless, he did seem to have a knowledge, and I did read in 2011 results, that he had finally shot an actual 1000BR event.

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran

 

[Hunter]

take a hard look at your rifle.

I'm not sure I like what I see -- a bottomless hole into which money disappears.

 

[MarkR]

The problem is that I'm getting heartburn because I can't out-shoot the other factory shooters who are using Bergers.

Get you some Bergers then and see if you're still getting out shot! It could be a combination of reasons...
Just remember, it aint always the arrow, it's the indian.
(disclaimer....there was no intention to minimalize, belittle, denigrate or otherwise negatively reflect on any or all Native Americans with this comment)

 

[alinwa]

Eric, that was an outstanding explanation.

Thank you, you're doing Walt proud.

al

 

[Andy Cross]

Custom v Factory

Years ago a BR shooter the now late Sid Hollingsworth once told me when I asked him about this issue. He said get the rifle shooting as well as you can on factory pills. Shoot a few matches and then switch to custom pills. If your aggs improve then the bullets MAY have been where the improvement came from.
Andy

 

[MilGunsmith]

I have shot 1/2moa groups at 600yds using Sierra 168gr matchkings in an M14NM with iron sights in NM competition. No scope or sandbags.

 

[SGJennings]

REALLY? 0.083 groups? Wow.

 

[mike in co]

do the math....aprox 3 in at 600 yds......is aprox.5 ag.....not .083....

mike in co

REALLY? 0.083 groups? Wow.

 

[SGJennings]

You're right, Mike. I had a brain fart. I divided by 6 rather than multiplying. And it's not even Monday or early morning. Sheesh, I'm losing my mind.

Greg J.

 

[mike in co]

but i have seen guys do amazing things with slings and iron sights. i cannot do it..have tried...not one of my skills..i am impressed by those that do.
i am un-impressed by the continuing of the 2/300/600 position shooting as marksmanship training. they use equiptment not used in the real field, ammo not functional in semi auto. the program need a major overhaul into modern marksmanship using actual field eqquiptment( no more harback coats) and ammo that is semi-auto functional. this means the course of fire need to be changed. standing up shooting makes one a target...plain and simple.

just my 2 cents worth again.

mike in co

You're right, Mike. I had a brain fart. I divided by 6 rather than multiplying. And it's not even Monday or early morning. Sheesh, I'm losing my mind.

Greg J.

 

[SGJennings]

I used to shoot position rimfire. With the peep sights allowing "concentric circles", one can do amazing things.

The Hunter guys do amazing things with a 6X scope, too....

 

[MarkR]

Then it would be called battle course...right?
Standing up on ones hind legs such as homosapiens normally do...and shooting...not only teaches one about bone support for the rifle but breathing and trigger control as well. That is something not many modern marksmen have had to learn. A skill set that I suppose should be replaced with a keypad and joystick.

but i have seen guys do amazing things with slings and iron sights. i cannot do it..have tried...not one of my skills..i am impressed by those that do.
i am un-impressed by the continuing of the 2/300/600 position shooting as marksmanship training. they use equiptment not used in the real field, ammo not functional in semi auto. the program need a major overhaul into modern marksmanship using actual field eqquiptment( no more harback coats) and ammo that is semi-auto functional. this means the course of fire need to be changed. standing up shooting makes one a target...plain and simple.
just my 2 cents worth again.

 

[mike in co]

standing up makes one a target...plain and simple.
go look at various battle fields of current engagemnets......
standing up is a target.........
if you take the time to get in position standing up and aim...you are dead.
the skill you mention is not learned because nearly every competitor uses a hard back shooting coat....such things are not used in the field...so what is "learned" hardback shooting coat shooting..is not repeatable in the field.
no we need a marksmanship program based on todays rifles and todays battle fields. the current program does not do this.
yes high power is a skill..it is not representative of current shooting wars.
mike in co

Then it would be called battle course...right?
Standing up on ones hind legs such as homosapiens normally do...and shooting...not only teaches one about bone support for the rifle but breathing and trigger control as well. That is something not many modern marksmen have had to learn. A skill set that I suppose should be replaced with a keypad and joystick.

but i have seen guys do amazing things with slings and iron sights. i cannot do it..have tried...not one of my skills..i am impressed by those that do.
i am un-impressed by the continuing of the 2/300/600 position shooting as marksmanship training. they use equiptment not used in the real field, ammo not functional in semi auto. the program need a major overhaul into modern marksmanship using actual field eqquiptment( no more harback coats) and ammo that is semi-auto functional. this means the course of fire need to be changed. standing up shooting makes one a target...plain and simple.
just my 2 cents worth again.

 

[MarkR]

Didn't really realize that any 3 or 4 position match ever intended to emulate "military battle conditions"
I spent 26 years in the military and retired in 2002, so with the exception of the very latest technology...I am fairly familiar with how shooting goes on in war or battle conditions. M14's, M40's (damn bolt actions...sorry they're not gas operated), Barrett bolt and semi auto 50 cal are used extensively by our sniper and advanced marksmanship units overseas however...I see absolutely no need at all to change our current marksmanship disciplines other than to possibly add some "combat matches" which I believe already exist. While in the military I have shot 3 and 4 position smallbore (generally not used in combat), and many other disciplines including pistol (22 lr, centerfire and hardball 45) in slow fire, timed fire and rapid fire at 25 and 50 yds. Most of these are not truely combat related but are of general marksmanship and shooting skills...terrible waste to shoot all of those things not related at all to "combat" however, I feel blessed to have been skilled enough to be able to participate in these. It also seems to me that you have a problem with "hardback" coats. I really can't think of a good reason why you feel this way as they have evolved into what they are over time for use in certain disciplines that you obviously have zero interest in, and thats good too, I just don't see any need to run down our current marksmanship programs they are affiliated with, None of my shooting jackets, either NRA or ISU approved have a "hard back" but some are made of leather and can be quite stiff and heavy they can also cause one to lose several pounds through sweating during a course of fire in warm weather.
By the way, if you are interested we can meet and shoot some standing sometime with or without "hardback jackets" but then again it's a useless position.

 

[mike in co]

i have shot dcm/cmp three position. i have shot 600 any/any. i am familiar with the format and the tools of the trade.
i did not say battle conditions, but shooting positions that are found in battle conditions.
i simply disagree with the basic concept that training with hardback or heavy shooting coats standing has anything to to do with todays military engagement marksmanship. i feel just about the same for sitting.
its my opinion. based on what i have seen ...here and there.....
yes the cmp/dcm was to provide marksmanship training so the when people went into service they were of some use. if the shooting does not apply the the actual use, what value is the training ??.....
you are entitled to your opinion, yours is seriously biased by your long time participation.
as far as you and me having a shoot out , it is not likely. you would probably beat me, i cannot see iron sights. but bring your m4 carbine with an acog to the 1000 yd line and we will talk.
lol
mike in co

Didn't really realize that any 3 or 4 position match ever intended to emulate "military battle conditions"
I spent 26 years in the military and retired in 2002, so with the exception of the very latest technology...I am fairly familiar with how shooting goes on in war or battle conditions. M14's, M40's (damn bolt actions...sorry they're not gas operated), Barrett bolt and semi auto 50 cal are used extensively by our sniper and advanced marksmanship units overseas however...I see absolutely no need at all to change our current marksmanship disciplines other than to possibly add some "combat matches" which I believe already exist. While in the military I have shot 3 and 4 position smallbore (generally not used in combat), and many other disciplines including pistol (22 lr, centerfire and hardball 45) in slow fire, timed fire and rapid fire at 25 and 50 yds. Most of these are not truely combat related but are of general marksmanship and shooting skills...terrible waste to shoot all of those things not related at all to "combat" however, I feel blessed to have been skilled enough to be able to participate in these. It also seems to me that you have a problem with "hardback" coats. I really can't think of a good reason why you feel this way as they have evolved into what they are over time for use in certain disciplines that you obviously have zero interest in, and thats good too, I just don't see any need to run down our current marksmanship programs they are affiliated with, None of my shooting jackets, either NRA or ISU approved have a "hard back" but some are made of leather and can be quite stiff and heavy they can also cause one to lose several pounds through sweating during a course of fire in warm weather.
By the way, if you are interested we can meet and shoot some standing sometime with or without "hardback jackets" but then again it's a useless position.